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Catha edulis, NL, PH, VW, RED, NL RED

catha edulis plant breeding genetics catha edulis strains planthelper

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#1 planthelper

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Posted 10 July 2010 - 10:26 AM

hi!

just a pic to show the differences between the narrowleaved and the planthelper.

the left is the narrowleaved,
i hope to have more pics sooner or later.

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Edited by planthelper, 09 August 2012 - 03:56 PM.

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#2 Yawning Man

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Posted 10 July 2010 - 10:45 AM

Good stuff planthelper. I always find i learn more or become confident of my knowledge when i put a visual aspect in there. Know what i mean?

cheers
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#3 Shroomeup

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Posted 10 July 2010 - 01:16 PM

Interesting.

The narrow leaf I recently got from SAB definitely looks to be the planthelper variety.

#4 Bread Filter

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Posted 10 July 2010 - 05:09 PM

Great picture, thanks.

What did you cross to get the PH? Red and Narrow leaf?

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#5 naja naja

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Posted 10 July 2010 - 08:36 PM

My narrow leaf cutting/sucker I took myself from a NL also looks like my PH at this stage, just has to grow out bigger me thinks.
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#6 planthelper

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Posted 12 July 2010 - 10:06 AM

the mother of the ph was a vienna white and the nl was the father.

ok, first we have to remeber ourselfes that catha edulis leaves change there appereance according to what they "do or are".

leaves of upright growth, spiral staircase arrangement = are wide
leaves of branches, bipinnate = are generally narrow

mature plant mode = generally narrow
young plant mode = wider leaves

for those resons a very young nl will look almost like even a vienna white. now, this leaf shape is not often seen with the nl as mostly we probagate them when they are already in a far more mature stage, but when you grow a nl from seed, than you will exactly see those fat nl leaves.

aswell a young ph looks more like a vienna white.

the ph, seems to me to be aswell a bit more difficult to probagate, just the same as the nl.
the reason for this, might very well be, this very "short young plant mode" of the nl and ph.
to tie my previous statement back into where we are now thought wise, this means that a seed grown nl which still shows "wide leaves upright spiral staircase growth" (they do that for maybe halve a years growth) makes very good cutting material, with a very high strike rate!!
it is possible to strike catha edulis from bipinnate branch material, but to ny feeling strike rates are down this way, and the cutting will continue just growing branch growth for a while, till eventually a new "upright growth spur will emerge" which will display, yep you got it, a bit of spiral growth with wider leaves.

another easy feature to seperate the two is by overall colour, but comparing the two, we have to make sure, both specimens are of similar maturety, because as said above, so amy things change with this plant in different stages of maturety.
anyway,
the nl has an overall more light green appereance, with some silvery hues.
whilst the ph, is a bit dark greener in general appereance.
the more narrow leaves can get, the paler the green gets, seems to be the obvious thumb rule.


sab has got a few ph's so you could be lucky!
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#7 planthelper

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Posted 12 July 2010 - 10:13 AM

i forgot to mention, that naturaly, aswell the leaves of all the wide leaved catha edulis strains, change the appereance of there leaves (to more narrow), in the same fashion, as the narrowleaved ones.
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#8 Bread Filter

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Posted 12 July 2010 - 11:29 AM

the mother of the ph was a vienna white and the nl was the father.


Cheers for that.

#9 planthelper

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 10:17 AM

hi!

i just have been asked:

As you're a specialist, and this strain seems to be named after you, could I ask what makes Planthelper F2 unique?

planthelper F2 = a planthelper mother (open) pollinated by chance, father pollen could have come from. itselfe, a red, or a vw, or a nl.

but i don't think, "much red" has pollinated, as no seedlings show the typical red "caramelisation" which is so typical for the red.

but many of the seedlings show "more red" than the planthelper or any NL.
more red means, not only the stem and major veins of the leaves are red, but aswell the small veins.

i can observe at least 3 or 4 different features with the ph f2 seedlings:

a narrow leaved plant with red stem and veins,

a narrowleaved plant with white veins and green stems,

a broad leaved plant, showing a bit of red,

a broad leaved plant, showing a bit of white.


pic's will take a while....

Edited by planthelper, 22 August 2011 - 09:14 AM.

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#10 Ethos

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 10:45 AM

Thanks for the info PH :)

#11 planthelper

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Posted 22 August 2011 - 09:21 AM

update!

first there was a (dyslexic mistake) in the above post, i had mixed up the terms father and mother.

second, i think now that, some of the seeds were pollinated by a red father.
close inspection showed that, some of the red veined plants, produced by the ph f2 seeds, do show the typical "red caramelisation", of the youngest leaves, which makes the red so special.

in short, maybe 1/4 or so of all seedlings do seem to produce even what i wanted to achive many years ago,
a "red narrow leaved" (ph f2 nl).

hope to have pics soon.
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#12 Thelema

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Posted 22 August 2011 - 02:52 PM

how do these different strains compare in strength?
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#13 planthelper

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Posted 23 August 2011 - 09:41 AM

how do these different strains compare in strength?


i lost most of my mature plants with the floods, but from memory i would say the red and vw are the best and the nl is of a different chemical make up, which i don't like as much as the former. meaning the narrow leaved and the broad leaved strains can't be seperated "strengh" wise, as they produce a bit a different outcome.
the ph might be aswell a mixture of the above two different (chemo?)types, chemicly speaking.

seedlings of qat seem to always have the same strengh as the motherplant, in other words, seedlings or cuttings seem to have the same strengh.
the ph f2 seedlings are still far too small for any bioessay.
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#14 planthelper

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Posted 23 August 2011 - 10:16 AM

ph f2 red caramel leaves tip, very inmature plant.
Attached File  K1CF4BEEAB_1000114ph f2 red caramel.JPG   18.34KB   42 downloads

red broad leaved, caramel leaves tip semi mature plant.
Attached File  K1CF4BEEAB_1000112red broadleaved caramel tip.JPG   22.29KB   50 downloads

narrow leaved, caramel leaves tip, semi mature plant.
Attached File  K1CF4BEEAB_1000107nl caramel.JPG   22.93KB   52 downloads

planthelper (a semi narrowleaved plant), caramel leaves tip, semi mature plant.
Attached File  K1CF4BEEAB_1000108ph.JPG   26.09KB   40 downloads
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#15 planthelper

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Posted 23 August 2011 - 10:30 AM

some pic's of my ph f2 seedlings, this one looks narrow leaved and has deep red veins (margins).
Attached File  K1CF4BEEAB_1000104phf2red.JPG   184.6KB   36 downloads

this phf2 seedling looks very narrow leaved, has got white veins, and displays early maturety and lot's of suckers!
Attached File  K1CF4BEEAB_1000101phf2white veins.JPG   201.23KB   36 downloads
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#16 DarkSpark

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Posted 23 August 2011 - 11:15 PM

in short, maybe 1/4 or so of all seedlings do seem to produce even what i wanted to achive many years ago,
a "red narrow leaved" (ph f2 nl).

congrats,

out of curiosity at what age does a red C. Edulis flower ? Mine is 4 years old. Although in a medium sized pot which may be limiting it's growth. Its like a little shrub. Would the pot be contributing to the plant not flowering ?

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#17 Alice

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Posted 24 August 2011 - 07:38 AM

For me anyway, my narrow's flower every year while the various broads haven't flowered yet. But the narrows grow much faster so they appear more advanced even though they are younger.

#18 Alice

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Posted 24 August 2011 - 07:42 AM

Great variation in the veination of your PHf2's Planthelper! Even from a distance those two in post 15 look very different. If you keep this up we'll be flooded with dozens of new khat types in a decades time. Awesome :)

#19 planthelper

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Posted 24 August 2011 - 09:24 AM

the nl matures earlier, maybe because of this, she flowers more freely than the broad leaved ones.
but i have managed to get flowers and seeds from narrow and broadleaved plants whilst in container culture.

on average it might take you up to 4 years to get them to set seed, but it can happen faster, if the plant is super happy. plants produced by suckers can flower right away at times, specialy the narrowleaved types.

different traits, i have noticed so far are:, broad or narrow leaved, suckers freely or doesn't sucker as freely.
red veins or white veins.
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#20 Torsten

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Posted 25 August 2011 - 01:54 AM

sab has got a few ph's so you could be lucky!


Nope. No ph's have ever left here.
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#21 etherealdrifter

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Posted 25 August 2011 - 02:06 AM

:wub:
love the original ph
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Edited by etherealdrifter, 25 August 2011 - 02:21 AM.

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#22 planthelper

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Posted 25 August 2011 - 11:16 AM

what you said tort, i take as a compliment for you and myselfe!

what i try to say is, you might have done so, because you have very special ethics.

but there is a catha strain only sab has got, the greenman strain, hope they still have it. :)

Edited by planthelper, 25 August 2011 - 11:20 AM.

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#23 Torsten

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Posted 25 August 2011 - 11:48 PM

but there is a catha strain only sab has got, the greenman strain, hope they still have it. :)


Greenman is actually earthalchemist [from earthalchemy seeds]. He grew a khat from imported seeds many years ago and it turned out to be totally devoid of any red tints, but grew just like the red. he planted it in our garden for propagation by SAB.
This is now called the 'green' strain. It looks just like a camellia, so perfect for those states that have stupid laws ;)
It has been out there for a bit, but it is not terribly popular. It is not as tough as the red, tastes quite soapy, and is temperamental with propagation. It has also never grown big enough to produce seed. probably our own fault for taking cuttings too often. this year one of the largest plants will not be touched so it might produce seed. There might be some interesting results from open pollinated seed as the plant is amongst all the other strains.
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#24 naja naja

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Posted 26 August 2011 - 12:15 AM

I have found, in my limited experience that the green strikes well and grows well in W.A. Got ~%50 from yanking up suckers from the base.
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#25 DarkSpark

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Posted 28 August 2011 - 09:16 PM

From memory my red was actually labeled "strain 3" i THINK it was 3 when i got it from SAB ages ago, I refer to it as red for obvious reasons xD. Mine is certainly happy and growing very vigorously since repotting with some fresh soil. I take cuttings as well quite frequently and used some Limited Stress Training in its early days so now it is a mean little shrub :) maybe i should let a few branches grow and not prune them :)

I wonder Plant Helper did you find that the F1 plants were more vigorous growers than their parents ? Happens with Mary Jane, wondering if it could with catha ?

I would be very interested in getting some PH seeds and/or cuttings if anyone could help me out, preferably the F2 seeds the more variation the better. Prepared to pay or can trade red/green cuttings or anything else in my trade thread.

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