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Lagochilus inebrians bioassay

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My llama recieved some dried Lagochilus inebrians herb from Om-Chi ( thanks friendly! ) and decided to conduct some large animal bioassays. At all times an experienced sitter was present to ensure the safety of the lab animal undertaking the trials

The only information she could find were a few bioassay reports on other forums, but she was looking for more specific information. She found only this:

Molecular Formula: C20H36O5

Molecular Weight: 365.501

Variant: (3beta,8beta H ,9alpha,13 S )- Synonym(s):

CAS Registry Number: 23554-81-

Type of Compound Code(s): Source/Synthesis: Constit. of Lagochilus inebrians Physical Description:

Melting Point: Mp 157-158

References: Abramov, M.M. et al. , Dokl. Akad. Nauk SSSR , 1958, 3 , 41, (isol)Gafner, G. et al. , Chem. Comm. , 1974, 249, (struct)

Lagochilin.gif

And this means not a whole lot to her as she isn't a chemist... she has been trying to trace a paper by Dr Ikramov of Samarkand University via several professional sources but has been unable to find it. She has a paper on the isolation of lagochilin and it isn't exactly rocket science, which can only be a good thing :)

My llama tends to be a bit of a flower when taking anything these days, requiring mid range doses of most things for a full strength effect. She smokes no dope, just cigarettes. That night she smoked one small cone of dried herb with a high temp flame. On application of flame there is a real rush of energy, but she is a terrible bong smoker and am unable to inhale all the high temp smoke at once, and what smoke she had wasn't held for long. The initial puff sets my llama's lips tingling and gives a real sense of promise but isn't followed up as the cone burns. She suspects this material may be more active if subject to a high temp flame.

Overall the experience can be described as warm, relaxing, and her body felt slightly heavy. She has a second cone, which doesn't increase the effect- more consolidates it. She walks outside into the night- there is some attenuation of space, not quite a bending, and minor luminescence at the edge of plants- but insufficient to be much above baseline. No raising of pulse, loss of co-ordination, motivation or motor skills. No visuals either OEV or CEV. Total experience time 30 minutes.

Buddy 1: Female,taking SSRI's ( Effexor ) and tends to be a hardhead, requiring larger doses for most things than other people, doesn't smoke dope, some drinking though none that evening. Took Hoodia 1000 an hour before dinner. Smoked 1 x 1 paper joint of dried herb 90 minutes after dinner.

Described it as pleasant, relaxing, a bit like smoking mild cannabis leaf. Had a second single paper joint about 10 minutes after, didn't notice any increase in effect but said it continued at the level of the first joint and prolly only increased the duration. Total experience time 30 minutes. Possibly started to get tired on the comedown but that may have been the result of a long day also

Buddy three: Male, late 40s, had several drinks before smoking several cones a mix of cannabis flowers/ lagochilus in a 50/50 ratio, torched by a butane flame. Described the taste as harsh, and the effect as cannabis like but not of exceptional strength. Holding the smoke did not make any difference. He said something else but my llama forgot and she must ask him again :)

Several days later my llama tried smoking small cones of dried herb using a high temp butane lighter and noticed no appreciable difference to the effects

Lago 5x extract

Uncertain as to where to try next, my llama decided to treat the Lagochilis like Salvia ( when it was legal ) and make a 5X extract using ethanol, and minimising exposure to direct light. Drying the extract was a slow process, cos she had other things to do, and some indirect light fell on the tray, but overall it was kept pretty dark

She had nothing to drink, and no more to eat than a light snack taken 30 minutes before. Her mood was intensely energetic and she had been happily busy all day

She smoked two very small sequential cones of this with a normal temperature lighter. The initial 'flash' experience was less pronounced, and the smoke was still very harsh. She realised her lips were tingling again, but after about ten minutes the majority of effects ( which she described as 'light' and 'sunny' feeling ) seemed to have subsided. Unimpressed, she stood up and pottered around the house for ten minutes until she realised that she was just a little tired, and that a nap may be in order

On lying down and closing her eyes, she realised that this was the material came into its own. She had a pleasant, drifting lassitude that lasted for two hours, and awoke refreshed, relaxed and hungry in time for dinner. Minor disorganised CEV's were experienced, though that may have been mere fancy. No special focus or observations were apparrant. During that time she lacked motivation to stand up or even go to the bathroom, but towards the end vertical movement was possible unhindered and accompanied only by a warm floating feeling. She didn't sleep as such- she just drifted at the edge of sleep, and was comfortable and happy to be there

She is now feeling relaxed, and still a touch vague after three hours, slightly heavy limbed. Decidedly kava-ish :)

She has the feeling that there is much to learn from this substance before it can be placed in context and described in terms of its character. In the meantime the 5X extract is a pleasant, mid strength short-acting relaxant, of the sort that is personal rather than social.

She would be very interested to understand ( ha! ) the neurochemistry behind all this to see whether neural inhibition of some kind would enhance the experience in a way that could be safely undertaken

[ 10. August 2004, 00:43: Message edited by: Darklight ]

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great read Dark - im keen on trying out this one so its nice to know what to expect.

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Thanks for the test report. It's good to hear from various people about it. Most reports I've heard said they noticed very little effects.

Was the price about 50 usa dollars plus shipping for an oz? I considered it but decided it was too high. Based on the minimal effects, I think I will wait a while longer. I've seen it for about $30 an oz and heard of it being offered for 20 something but I will wait. When you look at all the other things that are out there like kava, damiana and so on that have definate effects, why bother with an expensive novelty? If I could get seeds I'd deff be interested in growing it but I'll wait until the herb gets cheap before I plunge which may not happen.

Stoney

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Stonehenge:

Thanks for the test report. It's good to hear from various people about it. Most reports I've heard said they noticed very little effects.

I did too, until I lay down. :D

Remember too that Salvia took a couple of years to develop and get word around regarding a successful and standard protocol that would work for most people, despite the fact that there was already a successful tradition of chewing large quids of fresh leaves. With that in mind I'd give something a couple of years doing the rounds before dismissing it altogether

When you look at all the other things that are out there like kava, damiana and so on that have definate effects, why bother with an expensive novelty?

Because I like the science and the social and clinical development process behind it for a start :)

Products in development are always more expensive until cheap sources and high demand extend availability. This herb has been on the desirable list for many people for maybe twenty years based on not much more than speculation and a single book reference, and hopefully the initial period of interest will cover the R&D needed time to come up with an effective protocol for its ingestion, medicinal or psychoactive. Given all that, I don't think it's expensive for those who wish to try it at this point

Starting something like this always involves an element of risk, and a sizeable financial outlay ( in this case on friendly's behalf )- and a lot of checking and in this case it was important to me to get correctly labelled botanical material- which is often problematic in itself. Friendly had obviously done all his homework to ensure we don't get another Mellow Gold substitution racket happening. He's not some fly by night racketeer, has a solid reputation as an honest trader. He had a supplier to pay who probably was well aware of his product's desirability. I did take all that into consideration, and there was less an element of risk receiving this from him than there were from several other dubious offers I'd had from complete strangers

For every new herb or formula that successfully reaches the public, three or four probably died in development for a whole raft of reasons. These projects all take time and effort on someone's behalf- if you choose to wait until things are priced more accessibly for you that's understandable, but please recognise there is a significant amount of unpaid work being done driven only by passion and interest, and that much of it will go nowhere. That's just how it is.

Lagochilus also still works out less than cannabis per gram still ( though I don't smoke hooch anymore ), but you get my point :)

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As with many unfamiliar herbs, it may take a few tries before one gets the feel of it and can begin to explore the space.

I have a friend who spent four days in Fiji as the guest of honor at a feast and drank prodigious amounts of kava with the local people and never felt a thing.

That being said, while I smoked Lago everyday for a month--extract mostly--and enjoyed it quite a bit, I haven't touched it for a few weeks now.

Maybe because I've already moved on to the next project that needs first hand bioassays; a Voacanga africana root bark 12.5:1 semicrystalline powder extract.

I've only played with this a few times, but I think it holds great promise once I get the dosage and mode of administration figured out.

Yesterday I tried 113mg in a joint, but was at work and unable to relax and enjoy it, so I only got a headache.

Several hours later, after a nap, I took a drive and noticed how unusually clear things seemed.

I smoked a joint and noticed that I was much trippier than I would ordinarily be from just that.

I spent a few hours in the early evening enjoying a semi-entheogenic state that I think would become much stronger with a larger dose and/or maybe oral administration.

It was probably much stronger earlier, but being unable to enjoy it, I got only a headache.

Previously, I tried it in a more relaxed situation in company and at a smaller dose and everyone agreed it was nicely noticeable at such a small dose and worthy of further research.

With new herbs it's wise to start out with a very small dose and work up incrementally until activity or toxicity is determined.

I just wish I had more time for assaying.

I think pyrolysis may be destroying some of the actives in the extract, so oral administration of 250mg is next.

[ 10. August 2004, 10:02: Message edited by: friendly ]

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Being fortunate enough to have received a sample of this mythic herb recently ( Thanks to all involved for the sample ) I decided that smoking was the only way I was going to be able to try this herb and also share it around.

First taste.

Rolled into into a joint with a slim filter.

The taste wasn't all that great but soon found it better to take only half puffs instead of big drags.

within 30 minutes I was feeling a pleasant drowsy heaviness in my body.

Based upon this one experience so far I would say it is well suited for when one wants to veg out at the end of a long day

[ 10. August 2004, 10:48: Message edited by: Ramon ]

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DANIEL SEIBERT mentions in his little bioassay experience that it was given to him as a tea, if i remember rightly.

does anyone have any info on traditional methods of preparation?

Earlier today I had a flash of a man sitting before a campfire with a mug made of copper with a really long handle, and he was drawing the herb for about half an hour in it, careful to not let it boil, before he drank it. Could this intuition be close to the original preparation method?

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Plants of the gods mentions that the tea was made with Toasted herb

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20G of Lagochilus was partially toasted in a teflon pan and then stirred with 4 cups of water on a medium simmer, below boiling for 30 minutes. Vapours inhaled from the steam seems to have caused a little "zombiefication" to occur, gradually leading to my entrancement with my whirling spoon in the liquid, a "+".

The resulting broth yielded 3 cups of brew. Cup 1 was consumed with distaste, a foul bile-like brew almost causing the gag reflex to occur. it took 20 minutes to drink. intensification of previous zombieness was felt whilst drinking.A slight numbness over the facial area, especially the lips, was prominent. 20 minutes after consumption, slight jaw-clenching was noticed with a need to evacuate my bowels.

Muscles gradually became more rigid and a fine twitching overcame my body, by time 30 min-45 min after consumption, this had resulted in a fine but uncontrollable body shivering, confined mostly to the upper torso.

No cognitive effects were noticed, and no feeling of inebriation that I could confidently call above baseline.

Soon after, a second cup was consumed, rather faster than the first. This took me to t=1:15. I waited until 1:45 for any further effects to manifest, which they did not.

I decided to terminate the experiment at this point, concentrating on rescuing goodies from the last of the tea and dregs for a smoke bioassay to be performed later.

Later t=2.5, whilst wandering in the dark, I found space to be mildly dilated in the direction of movement, with a slight 'floatiness'.

Total amount consumed: est 12g.

[ 17. August 2004, 04:07: Message edited by: Thelema ]

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If I may place my experiences here:

Material: 5x broad-spectrum extract (heated ethanol used as solvent). Combined with no other substances or psychoactives.

Effect: Despite four attempts on different days (seven bowls maximum taken), no unambiguous effects where felt. That's not to say I was at baseline, but any effect I felt could have been attributed to the act of smoking, placebo effects, or other subtleties. +/- on Shulgin scale.

Material: 10 grams dried material, made as infusion with hot water. Again, no other psychoactives were present. Taken on an empty stomach. Combined with honey to cut bitterness.

Effect: Slight giddiness, but nothing which was unambiguously non-placebo. +/- of Shulgin scale.

Material: 17 grams of dried material, infusion made with boiling water. A total of three large mugs of tea drank. Combined with honey. Taken on empty stomach, but a meal was eaten not long afterwards.

Effect: Similar to previous attempt. Ambiguous effects. [This is my most recent attempt, having been performed last night before diner.]

Maybe I'm doing something wrong -- using an infusion instead of a decoction, for example, or perhaps not acidfying the water -- but until I have better data I will probably stop my experiments, or at least experiment no further once the smoking extract is consumed. Considering that 17 grams of material represents $30.00US worth of herb at market prices, this herb is just not worth it.

Friendly has gotten good effects from smoking extract, but as far as I can tell he usually mixes it with marijuana (for which he has a medical prescription). I have yet to find a non-marijuana user who has experienced good effects with smoking, and the tea makers seem to use ungodly ammounts of material given current prices.

For recreation, at this point I'll stick with kava and kratom.

(Edit for typos)

[ 17. August 2004, 05:43: Message edited by: Anonymous ]

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Anonymous:

and the tea makers seem to use ungodly ammounts of material given current prices.

This is a problem with a herb like this

Even if it works very nicely at a dose of 17g up its going to be severely held back until it can be farmed out en masse like similar sage , lavender, rosemary etc type shrubs and sold by the grower at about $22 - 30 kilo so that by the time the herb wholesalre and retailer get it out there its not ridiculously expensive

(Ha in fact given the amount used it seems like planthelpers strong salvia officinalis tea might have similar potency! And strong sage and black tea is a common beverage in Palestine as Black tea with Mint is in Morocco )

For now though its great to do the research to see IF its worthwhile tracking it down and growing it

Im going to trial mine, toasted as a Tea and then brewed with strong Black Tea to see if a synergy is evident.

Reports soon

[ 18. August 2004, 22:46: Message edited by: reville ]

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If your looking for:

"Structure-Activity Relationship for Hemostatic Lagochilin Diterpenoids" Chemistry of Natural Compounds 38 (2): 161-163

http://www.kluweronline.com/article.asp?PI...PS=452453&PDF=1

I can email you the following pdf's:

"Folk medicine in Uzbekistan: I. Toshkent, Djizzax, and Samarqand provinces" Journal of Ethnopharmacology Volume: 92, Issue: 2-3, June, 2004, pp. 197-207

"Structure of lagochilin" Tetrahedron Letters Volume: 10, Issue: 17, 1969, pp. 1361-1364

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This one also came up on my search:

"X-Ray Structure of Lagochirsidine and Di-o-cyclohexylidenelagochilin" Chemistry of Natural Compounds Volume: 37, Issue: 4, July 2001 - August 2001, pp. 322-325

[ 17. August 2004, 20:00: Message edited by: Ed Dunkel ]

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I gave my lagochilus sample to a neighbour since I was scared of it. You never know, it could be addictive.

Well here's what the neighbour has to say about it (at least i think he's a neighbour... I don't exactly know where he lives, but he always runs around here... his Name is

Mr. Natural):

The arrival of my lagochilus inebrians sample bag

"coincided" (are there coincidents?) with my renewed resolve to stop smoking tobacco.

This time my decision to stop was caused by an inflammation/infection of my lips and throat which in itself was a result of untreated tooth infections.

AUSTRALIA'S PUBLIC DENTAL CARE SYSTEMS SUCKS TOTALLY/IS NON-EXISTENT!

It was only a matter of will to stop lighting up the dreaded golden-yellow herb that causes mainly side effects and nothing much else.

I had already successfully given up nicotine consumption about a year ago, had succeeded for over 6 months and than, out of a depressed feeling started again.

I still smoke my favourite green herb, but sometimes that is very dry and burns on my tongue,

so a non-tobacco-additive like the intoxicatibng mint was very welcome.

It definitely adds to the mj experience in a way that it gives you an euphoric feeling, some sort of happiness or contentment.

I regularly mix my smokes with lagochilus now, in varying percentages...

perhaps soon I will try a tea...

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I have yet to find a non-marijuana user who has experienced good effects with smoking

I would say if you are looking for it, a pleasant heaviness which haves you drift off to sleep, is a good effect.

I guess I wasn't precise when I mentioned smoking it as a joint. The was not other substance mixed with my intoxicating mint.

If one doesn't mind smoking, then this is a very useful herb for then end of a long day. ( Based on one smoke thus far )

[ 20. August 2004, 14:19: Message edited by: Ramon ]

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My llama smoked it both as an extract and as plain herb.

Like she said in the bioassay, results in either case weren't initially much above baseline- in the case of the extract it worked *substantially* better when she lay down in a darkened room- its mood altering and unique signature became more apparrant.

Not knowing much about receptor site binding etc I am wondering if it is more an elictor of the state rather than a direct mood altering substance. In maybe much the same way melatonin works for me- to elicit sleep under optimal conditions, rather than knocking me to sleep like a direct sedative does.

This is just a theory. And there is a way to go before definitive protocols or possibilities for use are exhausted.

My llama may be a bit of a flower when it comes to dosages, but she isn't terribly imaginitive, nor is she prone to placebo effects

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made a hot water infusion - ie tea, with three grams, taste was amazingly bitter even with honey. effects were just barely, hard to determine, need to make a decoction with a larger amount of leaf and take it without any other helpful substances at night.

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my experience with this plant is different to most as it turns out i had previous experience with it about 25 years ago during a shortage of other herbal material.i think i enjoyed it a bit more then,though it was a bit different in appearance.

my usual method is in a cig with about 25% tobacco.i usually feel the urge for a second one.

strongest effects were from drinking a tea made from one teaspoon finely ground stem while smoking a cig.

the effect is a clear calm pleasant high.

as dl said its good for lying down with closed eyes.

initially i insisted no one try it with 'erb as i wanted a 'true' reaction.but when someone insisted it was discovered the two had some thing to other each other and were mutually benificial.

tried to extract with iso but it was a waste.

i hand manicured the flowers and found it rewarding[?!].

t s t .

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Been gone a while.

I tried smoking just the resin extract in a pipe and it was similar to honey oil.

While honey oil is not made from the strongest part of the plant, the concentration allows for an increase in effect.

I do believe the same is true of Lago.

I think we would appreciate it more were there not stronger herbs around and one had to adjust to it.

Nevertheless, it is IMHO still a worthy plant for further experimentation as I do think we haven't got the most efficient mode of ingestion figured out quite yet.

Unfortunately (?) I have been occupied recently with the Blue Lily seed tincture and now the Lotus stamens (Ummmm, good!) and have not had the time to go back to the Lago after giving it a rest for a while.

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so is it ever traditionally used medicinally, say as a daily tea, with some specific indications? i'd be more interested to know what its long term effects are, if it's not overtly visionary...

[ 29. August 2004, 12:28: Message edited by: coin ]

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Traditionally the herb is toasted and prepared as a tea. It is well known for it's extreme bitterness, most likely due to the alkaloids.

My thought is that where it 'grows like weeds' (quoted from a Tajik email contact) much larger quantities may be consumed cheaply whereas we have had to pay a large amount for it and therefore cannot afford to use several oz of herb at a time in a pot of tea, which may be what is required for all we know.

I am currently utilizing my Chinese resources to attempt to locate a more reasonable source for this and other Lagochilus species which are used in TCM.

I also have a friend who travels through China several times a year and who is going to be helping in the search. If I can source it from China, the price will immediately become much more reasonable.

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*nods*

i guess what i was asking then:

what are the general uses/indications for related plants in TCM ?

besides bitterness, what are the other tastes of the herb? astringent, salty, pungent, etc?

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It is generally used as a sedative.

I remember it was very effective as an expectorant when smoked, bringing up large quantities of mucus to be expelled from the lungs, but nothing remarkable about the taste other than the bitterness.

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Is it not also used as a haemostatic, stops bleeding ???, There are plenty to choose from the family too.

So many herbs...

Lagochilus acutilobus

Lagochilus androssowii

Lagochilus balchanicus

Lagochilus botschantzevii

Lagochilus bungei

Lagochilus cabulicus

Lagochilus diacanthophyllus

Lagochilus drobovii

Lagochilus gypsaceus

Lagochilus hirsutissimus

Lagochilus hirtus

Lagochilus ilicifolius

Lagochilus kaschgaricus

Lagochilus knorringianus

Lagochilus kschtutensis

Lagochilus leiacanthus

Lagochilus longidentatus

Lagochilus nevskii

Lagochilus occultiflorus

Lagochilus olgae

Lagochilus paulsenii

Lagochilus platyacanthus

Lagochilus platycalyx

Lagochilus proskorjakovii

Lagochilus pubescens

Lagochilus pulcher

Lagochilus pungens

Lagochilus seravschanicus

Lagochilus setulosus

Lagochilus subhispidus

Lagochilus taukumensis

Lagochilus turkestanicus

Lagochilus vvedenskyi

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TO-MAC-CO!

i met this mr natural dude again this morning...

after i asked him why he's always running around my house and in my garden, he said he was looking for a time machine he had misplaced somewhere.

he also asked for access to the computer so here he is:

Am I getting addicted to lago?

This morning when i wanted to have a mixed smoke of lago and mex poppy, i couldn't find the lago packet...

immediately the same nervousness that someone feels who has misplaced his cigarettes came up inside me...

I was unable to concentrate on anything else until i found the bag with lago.

does this mean lago is addictive?

anyhu, who stocks Lago?

torsten?

om chi herbs?

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