white light

[hebrew]

torsten i was hoping you could let me know the herbs that make up the white light you sell

is this the same mix we talked about a long while back now?

i am excited to see it in yoru store, i have bought a couple of jars. i love silene capnesis, i catn wait to start working with it

thanks

[hebrew]

ubulawa thread

[Thelema]

interested in this as well. does it contain synaptolepsis kirkii for example? one of the more promising examples of dreaming herbs making it through the pharmacological system. Google it with "BDNF". Torsten seems a bit quiet at the moment, BTW.

[Torsten]

The 'white light' herbs were mixed by a traditional Zulu healer and the recipe is not shared, sorry.

here is an explanation of the different colours in ubulawu:

The invisible nature of the ancestors is confirmed by an indigenous diviner, "Very definitely the amaDlozi (guiding ancestral-spirits) are white, adding that because "they are white, they cannot be seen during the daytime."

"... white is symbolic of the grandparents (ancestors).." White is a healing colour as one wants "lightness (in order to heal)."

In Zulu thought white is always positive in meaning. It is also known as the`colour of the ancestors’ who reward good conduct with blessings.

Diviners describe white as a "healing colour", that one does not want dark colours as one wants "lightness" (of the ancestral spirits) to ensure good things.

The Zulu verb khanya means `to be light’ ,`to be bright’ and `to shine forth.’ White is used as a synonym for light when used in ritual contexts. In such cases it refers to fortune, health and fertility. The very earliest of Zulu texts talk of thanksgiving as, "Let the Amatongo (amaDlozi) be bright and white, and not dark, that they may save us on another occasion." Misfortune is described as the ancestors turning their backs and that ,"...their Idhlozi is dark."

The meaning of the colour symbolism of red, white and black :

The earliest record found (at present) associating these colours with a diviner is Isaacs' 1836 description of a renowned sangoma whose one eyelid was painted red, the other black and her nose and hair were blackened. Tyrrell also notes that the 'first ancestors' were said to be coloured, one red and the other white. The function of the sangoma (traditional diviner healer) to access and derive power from the shades, would therefore reinforce this ancestral and colour association.

Of several sangomas interviewed all note that the three colours (black, red, and white) are associated with 'power' and were suggested by the shades. This may allude to another dimension of colour relevance. Ngubane outlines the significance of black, red and white medicines for the isangoma. These principally herbal medicines: black (imithi emnyama), red (imithi ebomovu) and white (imithi emhlope), are used (serially in that order) in a ritual context and also have 'symbolic meaning'. Essentially they are to establish a 'balance between the person and the environment' . Red and black are equivocal as they represent both good and bad, while white represents power and ultimate well-being. Red and black medicines are used to expel 'what is bad' and also to strengthen the body against future 'attacks', whereas health will only thereafter be restored with white medicines.

Red medicine is also often worn in bottles suspended from the neck and in this case the intrinsic power of red equivocally counters evil.

Red is described as ubeja, a word used for the concept of `I will win’ (the association is to red being a colour associated with emotion and the will).

These medicines are further terminologically distinguished as ubulawu, insizi ( powder from charred herbs, roots or animal medicine, always black), and intelezi liquid or white medicines said to possess the ability to render the evil of sorcery ineffective.

White is always the concluding medication.

Ngubane further notes how the colour sequence is linked to the 'cosmic order day and night'. Thus those who are ill or polluted are referred to as being 'without light and in the darkness' (i.e. black) and require cleansing, whereas white (umhlope) is associated with light (ukukhanya) and daylight which therefore represents life and good health. Thus to regain what is described as 'mystical health' requires a progression from night to day or black/red to white. Given these connotations the isangoma wearer of these colours in effect displays their access to the intrinsic power and 'mystical integrity' conveyed by these powerful colours.

and yes, I am a bit quiet. I read almost everything except in shrooms, art and spiritualism forums, but I just don't get the time and energy to participate much. Also, I tend to read threads as they mature, rather than after each post.

[Thelema]

The 'white light' herbs were mixed by a traditional Zulu healer and the recipe is not shared, sorry

I take that to mean that you don't know exactly the ingredients in what you're selling.

I find that a little unscrupulous, no personal offence.

[Torsten]

huh? how do you figure that? It's not like I make any claim about it. There are plenty of potions made by shaman who will not share their recipes [or don't even know how to convey the species to westeners]. I am making this available as an authentic white light ubulawu herbal blend, but that does not mean I have to know what is in it. If you feel that knowing the ingredients is more important than making such an item available then don't buy it! Simple.

I sourced this from a distributor who himself does not know the constituents and it would have never ocurred to me to accuse him of being unscrupulous. In fact, I am grateful that he makes the effort of making such things available. I've got a few other things from him where all he can tell me about it is what the tribal people do with it. Sometimes the stuff is plain herbs and hence one might be able to find out with a bit of research, at other times it is simply powder or a mix that could contain any number of herbs. It's whatever he picked up in his travels through tribal areas.

No one is forcing you to buy this and I am not making any claim that this stuff is safe or even beneficial. I am not even giving instructions on how to use because I feel that people need to research this medicine themselves in every respect.

[Thelema]

How do I figure it? - I presume you mean 'how do I figure it's unscrupulous', rather than "how do I figure you don't know what the ingredients are."

You are selling something that you cannot declare the ingredients of.

I'm sorry, but for whatever motivation [and I believe they are good ones], a basic transaction should consist of a declaration of what is being sold. I know you believe in the declaration of additives to food, and to milk, and bread. It's a basic premise that consumers should have the right to inspect the constituents of what they are about to purchase.

And then, following any adverse events, it is right for the consumer to be able to consult incretions, their consumptions, to further their own personal science.-None of which attains to this particular product.

[Thelema]

In addition, there's a tone of economic rationalism to your response that not many members would be attracted to. Sure, I get what you're saying, sourcing some dream-mixture from some shaman, just like you sell so-I-can't-believe-it's-not-shamanic. [sorry, can't tell you the mix]

You should know that there is a bifurcation here: people that come and buy this stuff, which might be your economic interest, and people who post on the forum, who don't make up your main $$, I'm willing to bet. But that's beside the point:

I think you know you're selling yourself short to the science when you offer for sale these mixtures that have undeclared ingredients. I think you KNOW it but just can't SAY it here. At least I hope so in your Bwiti dream.

[Torsten]

I sell things for what they are. Just because I don't know what the ingredients in a traditional herbal blend are doesn't mean I am not going to make it available to others. There is more to ethnobotany than just botany. In fact, in most ethnobotanical texts it is the name of the preparation and the cultural use that are the primary [and often sole] observations. That's not how I personally approach ethnobotany, but then again I don't have an anthropological background, but rather a chemistry & biology background. However, just because the rest of my site focusses on botanical ID and pharmacology, doesn't mean that I completely discount the value of the anthropological approach.

I wonder how many ayahuasqueros share their recipes, yet I doubt many consumers are terribly concerned about that. Similarly, TCM healers in countries other than australia rarely share their recipes. Ditto for ayurvedic medicines.

I am happy to make other ubulawu ingredients available for those who want to research them by botanical name, but that doesn't mean I am going to deny access to traditional mixtures just because you've got a bee in your bonnet.

To mix up the motivations behind the white light and the 'ICBINH' is disengenious as well. ICBINH ingredients were kept secrect to stop the commercial leaches in this community from copying it. I made this clear to everyone. Even the TGA permits the hiding of proprietary ingredients in registered products. SAB needs to survive in a competitve marketplace where everyone copies those who have good ideas. Oveseas businesses hide their ingredients by simply listing fake ingredients in their place. There is a big difference between lying about ingredients and being open about refusing to disclose ingredients. You apparently can't see the that.

And yes, you are right, the handful of people who keep bringing these issues up and keep trying to hurt my business are generally those who do not buy anything from me anyway - like yourself. I cater to the needs and demands of my customers and as you are not one of them I am happy to ignore your constant whinging.

[hebrew]

well i do not wish to get involved in this discussion,i do not mind that the names of the plants are unknown, although it would be nice to know, i am still very happy to be able to have the ubulawa herbs available

[Torsten]

velevtsiren, we will try and make the other ubulawu herbs available over the next few months. It's a fascinating area of research and it would be good to get more information on each herb rather than on unknown blends. We will also try to make other blends of unknown [or at least uncertain] composition available where I think this is of value to the community.

[hebrew]

thanks i look forward to seeing more ubulawa herbs available

[incognito]

i just ordered the white light product and 10gms of the silene powder.

ive never used silene before so will probably call on the old hands like VS to give me some guidance.

have always wanted to try silene!

any recommendations at all on how to dose the white light product?

[Torsten]

some people put ubulawu herbs into capsules and swallow them on empty tummy first thing in the morning. you then wait till you get hungry and eat carefully. eating too soon will make you puke as most ubulawus are also strong emetics [due to the saponins].

The traditional method is to shake the powder up in some water until it forms a froth [200ml water in a 1L water bottle works well]. You then consume ONLY the froth as this is what contains the saponins. The same food rules apply as this is also emetic.

Effects starts usually after 2 or 3 days of consumption as it is cumulative. So no need to take large doses and make yourself unwell - just take it for more days.

[incognito]

thanks for that,, how much of the white light mix would be recommended to mix with the water to be drank each morning?

how much of the silene powder would be recommended to be mixed with water and drank each morning?

VS? any thoughts?

thought id ask as i would like to pursue the maximum effect of these products, but also dont want to make myself crook!

[Thelema]

I cater to the needs and demands of my customers and as you are not one of them I am happy to ignore your constant whinging

I do not constantly whinge. That too is disingenuous and puerile.[ I have not negatively-engaged with you publically for the last year, and have produced some astounding reports and contributions] I am willing to make a stand for product declaration, I do believe it is right in a marketplace for this to happen, especially so in the field of ethnobotany, and traditional medicine, and I will not let you intimidate me emotionally or through economic rationalism to shrink away from such declaration. I have made an effort to indicate to you that my disagreement over this issue is not personal, yet you cannot refrain from such in opposition.

And yes, you are right, the handful of people who keep bringing these issues up and keep trying to hurt my business are generally those who do not buy anything from me anyway - like yourself

Do you really think I'm trying to hurt your business? Do you really think that? I bet you don't. Maybe that is a consequence, but intentions cannot be inferred from consequences. Your aggression really shocks me. You know that behind the scenes I have supported you and the community. Don't mix the two ideas up. Associating on this forum, you must find yourself surrounded by 'yes' people. And because I have never met you, but have been associated with you for such a long time, I am in a unique position to play the joker card. He who can dance before the king and show the King his follies.

Oveseas businesses hide their ingredients by simply listing fake ingredients in their place. There is a big difference between lying about ingredients and being open about refusing to disclose ingredients. You apparently can't see the that.

No really, I think it is better that a vendor discloses no ingredients than give out false ingredients. Why would you think otherwise?

but that doesn't mean I am going to deny access to traditional mixtures just because you've got a bee in your bonnet.

I'm glad to hear it, sincerely. But what I would also like you to do is to gently persue the composition. That would be fantastic for us all, thanks.

[Torsten]

I do sometimes wonder whether the thelema who PMs me is a different person to the thelema who posts here. And yes, I do take it personally if you accuse me of putting $$ before the science. You don't even know if I make any money on that product. I lost 3 parcels of ubulawu herbs to quarantine so far and if you ever grow silene yourself you will see that it is not possible to produce it in australia for the price well sell it at.

As for you not having whinged for a whole year, I simply don't believe it. I know I got pissed off about your comments a few months ago, but it might take me a while to work out what the comments were.

And lastly, naturally I pursue the composition of everything. It's a bit hard though if even the supplier has no idea what's in it. There are going to be some traditional blends that we simply won't be given the trust. Do you think if an anthropologist went to a traditional ceremony in central australia that the locals could, would or would want to tell him the botanical names of all the ingredients? You are being completely unrealistic with such a demand. My friend does a lot of research though so maybe one day he will be able to share these details. He's managed to indentify most of the ubulawu herbs so far.

[incognito]

dosage....anybody....please?

[Thelema]

I know I got pissed off about your comments a few months ago, but it might take me a while to work out what the comments were.

Just because you got pissed off doesn't mean I was whinging

There are many ways to get pissed off; in your case with me it's usually because I challenge you on a few home-truths that you'd rather let lie in your subconscious. But if this failure of memory is what it amounts to, a public apology is in order?

BTW, I sometimes wonder if the Torsten I PM is the same guy too I speak to in the forums. He seems so unpredictable at times!

[incognito]

ah cmon thelema ur always stirring the shit outa torsten here.

anyhoo....dosage?

[Thelema]

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Edited August 15, 2009 by Thelema

[incognito]

ur such an asshole

[Thelema]

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Edited August 15, 2009 by Thelema

[incognito]

alright now that thats straight can you please shut your pie-hole so i can get some kind of idea about dosage??? hmmmm?

Edited August 15, 2009 by incognito

[Thelema]

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Edited August 15, 2009 by Thelema