Sceletium update

[Maurice]

Has the full potential of Kanna been revealed?

IMO properly prepared material is not available commercially.

Research indicates that the tradtional baking method is

superior to the messy fermentation process.

Stems from older, dormant (Summer, dried skeletized plant material)

are the best baking material.

The final product has a sweet flavor, and is brown in color, NOT green.

The allay is a strong potentiator of many other herbs, alcohol,etc

and I enjoy it as a masticatory, fine flavor, strong euphoria.

I am currently giving up smoking tobacco using kanna,

by chewing a mix with Log Cabin fine cut tobacco.

The result of chewing the mix, is not like chewing tobacco alone &/or with alkaline,

and is very pleasant combination of nicotine stimulation with kanna stimulation.

I imagine that where it was legal, using those wasted cannabis stalks,

to mix with kanna as a masticatory, would result in a fine flavor,

tight kanna wad in the mouth (binding action) &

moderation of the kanna affect.

A word of caution, my experience with chronic daily use of kanna,

has resulted in lack of appetite with weight loss, even when used with other herbs.

[Alchemica]

Wondered the same thing...

Investigations of the phytochemical content of Sceletium tortuosum following the preparation of “Kougoed” by fermentation of plant material: Journal of Ethnopharmacology 121 (2009) pp. 86-91

http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/local_lin...d=8&id=7344

Two separate fermentation studies on Sceletium plant material were conducted. The first study involved the use of samples made from the arial plant parts of Sceletium tortuosum (75 g) which were transferred into a polythene bag and carefully crushed by hand using fingers, which yielded a watery plant mass.

"The sample on day 1, analyzed immediately after crushing, showed a concentration of 1.33% mesembrine and the presence of delta-7-mesembrenone which was confirmed by PDA analysis, albeit at very low detection levels (<LoQ). When an aliquot of the same crushed sample was dried at 80 °C as performed by Smith et al. (1998), no significant change in mesembrine (1.12%) or in the delta-7-mesembrenone content (still below the LoQ) was observed. This was in contrast to the results reported by Smith et al. (1998), who found high concentrations of mesembrenone following the same drying procedure. The sample on day 5 showed concentrations of delta-7-mesembrenone, now >LoQ, of 0.07% with the mesembrine content having decreased to 0.68%.

A graphical representation of the mesembrine and delta-7-mesembrenone content during the first fermentation process is shown in (Fig. 5). It was also observed that no significant change in content of mesembranol, mesembrenone and epimesembranol occurred during the entire fermentation process (content of mesembranol, mesembrenone and epimesembranol were found to be reasonably constant at 0.14, 0.15 and 0.4%, respectively)."

The second fermentation investigation, conducted 12 months after the first study, was carried out in a similar manner but using 130 g of the same plant’s arial parts. The study periods were chosen to coincide with the summer season and hot days, since the natural habitat of Sceletium is in the hot and arid Karoo regions of South Africa.

"The second fermentation study (carried out using the same plant but 1 year later following further growth of that plant) was carried out for 14 days and also showed a decrease in mesembrine content with a concurrent increase in delta-7-mesembrenone. However, the transformations were slower compared to the first fermentation study. The initial mesembrine content for the day 1 sample was found to be 2.2% with mesembrine content decreasing to 0.8% by day 14. Whilst the delta-7-mesembrenone content was found to be below the LoQ from days 1–5, a value above the LoQ of 0.06% was subsequently determined and which increased to 0.18% on day 14."

In the past, I've simply used the Preparing Kanna from Sceletium (Do it yourself) - Herbalistics method ( http://www.herbalistics.com.au/shop/produc...products_id=139 ) out of fear of oxalic acid (probably no real issue, in the short term or for low doses) and desiring the higher % of active? fermentation products. Might it be better to simply dry the herb and take it to oxalic acid's sublimation point of 157°C in the oven (assume the actives will survive - freebase mesembrine bp(0.3) 186-190°C, and it's likely to be a salt anyway), or mix the dried herb with lime paste to form the calcium oxalate (insol.) and freebase alkaloids for buccal use? Or is something more complicated going on that this article hasn't picked up on?

Edited October 1, 2009 by Alchemica

[Maurice]

Yeah, the paper is good, had it for awhile.

Since the paper was published, some vendors are advertising their product as unfermented.

The melting point for Oxalic acid is 101-102C, which is probably how the traditional baking method

works, since the plant is buried in hot sand, which would allow oxalic acid to drain away?

Anyway, having used much material fermented, it is always salty, and weak.

Oven baked product has a much better flavor and is strong!

There's other interesting insights from the paper, such as older plants produce stronger material.

[Maurice]

I remembered an episode of the Cook & the Chef, where it was mentioned that steaming, (i think it was) spinach removes the oxalic acid from it. Boiling pt of water is about the same as MP of Oxalic Acid!

[FancyPants]

Can somebody please explain if this oxalic acid content would possibly be something of concern to somebody with kidney stone prevalence; ie if there's a probability of it turning into calcium oxalate? I'll admit I'm not quite following what the paper is implying.

[t st tantra]

no mention of including the roots yet....do they contain enzymes or something else which provides a better product ?

the best kanna i made was from flowering material and included a bit of root and a fair bit of flowers.....flavour seemed improved.

t s t .

[mutant]

This is an interesting thread Thanks for bringing it up guys !!!

[devance]

A good guess as too root activity.

Whats has the the big root, the Nananthus mesembs.

Very slow growing 3years. Which is the reason it was over explotated during the 16th century by the dutch in south africa [transval mountain region]leaving only the crap sceletium and the pathetic fermentation process today as too the supposedly the real historical thing.

But nanathus is slow growing but easy to clone by snapping off the six stems succulent at a time.

So havesting the root gives six easyly rooted clones.

Ever multiply and alot faster than seeds.

Which is the best the biggests.

[Maurice]

Certainly the roots are active.

IMO they should only be harvested when the plant reaches the end of its life.

2 yoa stems are more powerful than 1 yoa root.

I think the oxalic acid is only in the leaves, at least that is what it is saying

via Google. I suppose a bit like rhubarb.

If the salty taste of fresh leaves is an indication of oxalic acid content,

then this seems the case, cf taste of fresh stem material.

The plants were harvested in October in Sth Africa, which corresponds to the end of

their growing season, IMO this was when the amount of material was at max. and

there was a ready market for it.

The best material, is from plants that are allowed to dry out over Summer.

The previous high (green juicy) oxalic leaves sceletize, and loose oxalic acid.

[Maurice]

The flower buds are strongly active, and have strong citrus flavor, very nice!

[Maurice]

A good guess as too root activity.

Whats has the the big root, the Nananthus mesembs.

Very slow growing 3years. Which is the reason it was over explotated during the 16th century by the dutch in south africa [transval mountain region]leaving only the crap sceletium and the pathetic fermentation process today as too the supposedly the real historical thing.

But nanathus is slow growing but easy to clone by snapping off the six stems succulent at a time.

So havesting the root gives six easyly rooted clones.

Ever multiply and alot faster than seeds.

Which is the best the biggests.

WHO said the Dutch exploited Nananthus- References PLEASE.

[Maurice]

Some pharmacology observations-

Cannabis is known to increase heart rate- thus paranoia.

A BP monitor (with HR indicator) is useful for personal use!

It is also being established in the literature that it is implicated in cases of stroke.

My sister is a victim of the myth that Cannibis is benign. She had a stroke.

The use of Kanna seems to neutralize these effects.

I have read via Google that kanna increases BP.

I disagree, can someone please purchase BP monitor from chemist and do research?

Also most interestingly, is that Channa seems to pharmacologically have reverse tolerence (Is thiis the correct term?)

in that as one becomes accustomed to the effect, less material is needed to achieve the same effect. Big plus!

[Alchemica]

Can somebody please explain if this oxalic acid content would possibly be something of concern to somebody with kidney stone prevalence; ie if there's a probability of it turning into calcium oxalate? I'll admit I'm not quite following what the paper is implying.

Hey FancyPants, all I can find is that "Chemical analysis of unfermented material has demonstrated high levels of oxalates (3.6-5.1%)" [1]. Compared to other foods (http://growingtaste.com/oxalicacid.shtml) this % is significantly higher but then again, the amount of material injested much lower. Can't find anything about the level of intake of oxalic acid which would pose a risk but I'll update the post if I do.

Boiling the material might reduce oxalic acid content slightly, but oxalic acid doesn't seem to be overly steam volatile.

Wonder what the mesembrine is transforming to as the fermentation process happens, only a small rise in delta-7-mesembrenone yet a large drop in mesembrine. The second paper has a few different alkaloids and considering SSRIs aren't generally recreational, would be interesting to know their activity. Would have thought that the roots were merely a better source of enzymes and higher % alkaloid plant material but that's only a guess.

[1] Sceletium Tortuosum: http://www.plantzafrica.com/medmonographs/scelettort.pdf

[2] Investigation into the genus Sceletium: http://ujdigispace.uj.ac.za:8080/dspace/bitstream/10210/349/9/Chapter03.pdf

[FancyPants]

Hey FancyPants, all I can find is that "Chemical analysis of unfermented material has demonstrated high levels of oxalates (3.6-5.1%)" [1]. Compared to other foods (http://growingtaste.com/oxalicacid.shtml) this % is significantly higher but then again, the amount of material injested much lower. Can't find anything about the level of intake of oxalic acid which would pose a risk but I'll update the post if I do.

Boiling the material might reduce oxalic acid content slightly, but oxalic acid doesn't seem to be overly steam volatile.

Wonder what the mesembrine is transforming to as the fermentation process happens, only a small rise in delta-7-mesembrenone yet a large drop in mesembrine. The second paper has a few different alkaloids and considering SSRIs aren't generally recreational, would be interesting to know their activity. Would have thought that the roots were merely a better source of enzymes and higher % alkaloid plant material but that's only a guess.

[1] Sceletium Tortuosum: http://www.plantzafrica.com/medmonographs/scelettort.pdf

[2] Investigation into the genus Sceletium: http://ujdigispace.uj.ac.za:8080/dspace/bitstream/10210/349/9/Chapter03.pdf

Hey thanks heaps, that seems to make a whole lot more sense to me now that it seems ridiculous to be even slightly worried about such a small amount (of the kanna ingested).

[planthelper]

i am aswell ready to believe that even old yellow material from this plant could be very effective, and in this case aswell the oxalic acid thing seems far less of an issue.

maurice if you mention some side effects of cannabis, i might share that sceletium at times triggered panic attacks with me, at that time though i was very depressed and mentaly rather unstable...

i love sceletium and have posted a lot about it (please search) including the first fermentation tek.

after snorting, smoking, eating and what ever, i like to soley chew the kanna these days.

sometimes i can feel the effects using this methode right away (negative thoughts gone, mood improofed) but some days kanna is not as strong for me as others...

some days i spent chewing a lot of kanna and i speculate that kanna can at times increase your libido!!

it seemed to have increased my libido in two diffferent ways, one producing a cosy dream like, fantasy like state, and the other was to help me being able to climax far more often than on any other day.

i once reported a halucigenic experience (cev's, every thought became a different pastel color sheme) from smoking scelly resin, which i rate as one of my overall best experiences.

to avoid any trouble like mentioned above, like the panic, i simply start off dosing very low and than keep chewing kanna a few more times as the day progresses. after a few sessions like that, one feels quite cosy on cloud 69, and the effects seem to last for quite a while without the need of having to dose up again.

i have never used kanna though for more than 4 or so days in a row.

a few days ago i spend some time in a ethno shop and this lady bought 10 packs of scelly powder, i guess that speaks for itselfe, scelly works, try it.

aswell it's an easy plant to cultivate and to probagate.

[Maurice]

i am aswell ready to believe that even old yellow material from this plant could be very effective, and in this case aswell the oxalic acid thing seems far less of an issue.

maurice if you mention some side effects of cannabis, i might share that sceletium at times triggered panic attacks with me, at that time though i was very depressed and mentaly rather unstable...

i love sceletium and have posted a lot about it (please search) including the first fermentation tek.

after snorting, smoking, eating and what ever, i like to soley chew the kanna these days.

sometimes i can feel the effects using this methode right away (negative thoughts gone, mood improofed) but some days kanna is not as strong for me as others...

some days i spent chewing a lot of kanna and i speculate that kanna can at times increase your libido!!

it seemed to have increased my libido in two diffferent ways, one producing a cosy dream like, fantasy like state, and the other was to help me being able to climax far more often than on any other day.

i once reported a halucigenic experience (cev's, every thought became a different pastel color sheme) from smoking scelly resin, which i rate as one of my overall best experiences.

to avoid any trouble like mentioned above, like the panic, i simply start off dosing very low and than keep chewing kanna a few more times as the day progresses. after a few sessions like that, one feels quite cosy on cloud 69, and the effects seem to last for quite a while without the need of having to dose up again.

i have never used kanna though for more than 4 or so days in a row.

a few days ago i spend some time in a ethno shop and this lady bought 10 packs of scelly powder, i guess that speaks for itselfe, scelly works, try it.

aswell it's an easy plant to cultivate and to probagate.

The paper "Sceletium-A review update" by N.Gericke & A.M. Viljoen (Journal of Ethnopharmacology 2008) is a good read.

From page 655, Excerpts from a translated interview with a local shephard in Namaqualand,... "In the summer when the growing is over, and the leaves get yellowish and wilted, it is at its best. At the end of the growing season when most of the leaves are dead, then it is most powerful..."

From page 661, Clinical case reports- "....In the first case, the patient, a medical doctor, was suffering from severe depression of 4 months duration...... The patient was started on a tablet of 50mg Sceletium daily. The patient initially reported a transient increase in anxiety after taking medication, which would last up to 3 hours, but was no longer apparent after the first week."

I tried my first cup of channa tea recently (infusion).One of the strongest, cleanest sedatives I've ever had.

Also the paper says that traditionally after a chew, a cigarette of Sceletium was smoked. The combination is a synergy and is not the same as just a chew or just a smoke. I agree Planthelper that chewing IMO is the way to go, but with a smoke afterwards is even better (much more stimulation)

So those times when it seems ineffective, could be a good reason to have a smoke too!

What is clear from the paper is that traditionally, different tribes preferred different species (S.emarcardium Vs S.tortuosum) and some used the roots, others discarded the roots. Such a versatile herb, and I guess there is not one right way!

[Thelema]

can anyone tell me what the deal is with kanna turning from a green plant into a red plant? Is it temperature?

[devance]

WHO said the Dutch exploited Nananthus- References PLEASE.

Theres a Dutch site that shows the sea log of the captain.

Tons were harvested, called [the most noble of all restoritives].

And why not if one had syphilis, mercury and lead poisoning, and tuberculosis.

Rather interesting from a ethnobotany sherlock holmes mystery.

What really got it lost to history was warfare as usual bet

[planthelper]

can anyone tell me what the deal is with kanna turning from a green plant into a red plant? Is it temperature?

i think it's a nitrient dificancy thing, and if a plant has less (N ?) available it gets red in colder parts of the year particulary.

i saw redish one's and green ones in the same bed, obviosly a stress responce.

often the roots get weak and damaged over the years and than those plants get reddish leaves and stems as the damaged roots can't feed the plant proper anymore.

just my own theory.

always take new cuttings, this avoids this problem!!

[Alchemica]

With the oxalic acid levels, remember that figure could be for the fresh plant material.

I have read via Google that kanna increases BP.

I disagree, can someone please purchase BP monitor from chemist and do research?

Original: 132/75 mm/Hg then took 1.5g of kanna as a tea (continuing the same activity as before and not having had any caffeine for probably 2hrs)

+1hr: 123/67 mm/Hg

+1hr 30min: 127/69 mm/Hg

Really not much change but this is just me and I don't always react typically.

Edited October 4, 2009 by Alchemica

[friendly]

Kanna can get red from sunburn, in my own experience.

Baking the plant in an oven for 1 hour at 250 degrees will remove the great majority of the oxalic acid. Let dry completely before use.

Something incredible is the combination of Sceletium powder (30-50mg on or under the tongue or preferably inhaled) with 80% ginsenoside ginseng extract. (20-40mg, on or under the tongue. Do not inhale)

It has been compared favorably to...well, it should be pretty obvious when you try it.

This is no laughing matter; take it very seriously. Be cautious.

My paper 'Empathogenic Effects of Sceletium tortuosum' (by Groot van der Gross), while dated, can be found online and has some good information regarding the plant.

Edited October 12, 2009 by friendly

[Maurice]

Red is due to lack of photosynthesis, usually because it is too cold.

[friendly]

Interesting. Do you suppose both too hot and too cold produce similar changes in the plant?

It usually grows under other shade providing plants in the wild.