smoking brug

[Siggor]

i am quite enjoying smoking brug at the moment, it taste just like my other favourite herb, any good mixes with it?

i just have one cone, let it kick in then maybe have another nice and relaxing without paronia, but a little too much has led me to delusional thinking, not knowing if i am doing what i really doing at that time. if you get what i mean?

any other things that i need to be careful of such as other drugs/herbs that don't mix well? and potentiate the effects of brug to the point of no return?

cheers guys

[Conan Troutman]

depersonalization??

Henbane is much better smoke IMO...much more sedative,

for many centuries literature says tropanes mix well with cannabis and/or opium. potentially very dangerous tho

Brug is well known active in a special ozzy smoking mix ;), which i think was borrowed from some ayahuasca recipes...

[just-iz]

spudamore -

jeebus, okay.. i'm not gunna give you the tropane talk, because of course you know the dangers and what-not, to be fuckin with this bitch of a plant..

..but what i AM going to do is tell you what smoking brugmansias candida, flore pena, versicolor, a small yellow sanguinea and numerous small daturas did permanently to SWIMS cognition..

mate, it woulda been about four years ago now, swim first came into the 'alternative ethno' world with a beautiful orange versicolor, you know the ones you could just sit down in the evening under.

well, after experimenting smoking, swim found it was interesting, didn't get a delerium-high, but a very *unusual* buzz, which didn't last long at all, so needless to say swim didn't think much of it. now, swim started smoking it maybe once a month, it was very casual, and the unsual buzz was always thought of as just a light ethno-experience.. SWIM fell in love with the beautiful tropanes, and cultivated all the above mentioned plants, and experienced puffin on these not very frequently at all, but nonetheless.

then came the particular day, where swim collected some amazingly purple dried datura stramonium tatula var bernhardtii flowers off the plant(collected and grown from wild specimens at binna burra mountain lodge-this one likes high altitudes), and smoked it, thinkin it'd be like every other time(note SWIM had smoked this species before with bland effects)..

well, it's been three years later, and SWIM tells me that that one joint, never completely left his head. before he could star in dramas and plays, on a stage, memorising lines like nothing. now, he struggles to look another human being in the eye, and say a single coherent sentence, without stuttering, word-salading, or generally fucking it up somehow. needless to say, SWIM, "broke through".

i can tell you, man, SWIM has learned his lesson, so bad. i tell you this out of genuine warning. swim laughs, *HYSTERICALLY*, when he hears people tell him that it is harmless smoked. now, three years later, i think it is getting better.. SWIM can say things with some degree of confidence again. but fuck attempting to salvage a social life he says, sad to say.

buddy, this is just one of those plants, natures version of 'look, take a whiff in the evening, but don't touch'.

i'm sorry that this post is so long yo, but swim tells me that this issue is very strong with him, and he would like to get the word out on trops., as there is a frustrating lack of evidence with smoking. as erowid says, yo, know your body, know your mind, everybody is different and responds diff. etc... so... you could be fine with this shit. well, swim thought he was one of those people, once.

-quite sincerely, just-iz.

Edited August 2, 2008 by just-iz

[apothecary]

No point with the SWIM's just-iz.

Terrible story, sorry to hear about you or your friend or whoever it is.

A testament to the true variability of alkaloid content for all Solanaceous plants. Always dry, powder, standardise and start at a low dose for each batch will likely be different.

Has your friend experimented with choline supplementation? Soya lecithin, choline citrate, etc? I feel this would be the best way to rebound from effects.

EDIT: I understand you want to get the word out for this plants safety issues but if you do a bit of back-searching of the forum you will see all the threads here related to the smoking of tropane containing plants (and there are a lot) are heavy with safe-use guidelines and warnings.

Edited August 2, 2008 by Sina

[Siggor]

cheers thanks for that will keep that in mind, as like with all things i take it very slow

[just-iz]

all good spudz.. slow is smart.

hey sina i'll check those out mate, my, um, friend is willing to try anything, the closest cure i've found so far is a supplementation of beta-carotene.. aka two fat carrot sticks a day, on top of multi-vitamin and fitness regime-style eating.

yeah i've checked out all the warnings, haha it used to be a point of interest once..

sometimes i believe it helps when you just say it straight, yo this is what it is, what it may do, that's why etc.. admittedly, it is easy to beat around the bush on these forums..

[Teotzlcoatl]

It's fun, I've done it alot, but it makes your extremely forgetful and is in no way healthy for you.

i can tell you, man, SWIM has learned his lesson, so bad. i tell you this out of genuine warning. swim laughs, *HYSTERICALLY*, when he hears people tell him that it is harmless smoked. now, three years later, i think it is getting better.. SWIM can say things with some degree of confidence again. but fuck attempting to salvage a social life he says, sad to say.

buddy, this is just one of those plants, natures version of 'look, take a whiff in the evening, but don't touch'.

i'm sorry that this post is so long yo, but swim tells me that this issue is very strong with him, and he would like to get the word out on trops., as there is a frustrating lack of evidence with smoking. as erowid says, yo, know your body, know your mind, everybody is different and responds diff. etc... so... you could be fine with this shit. well, swim thought he was one of those people, once.

-quite sincerely, just-iz.

I don't think your brain is damaged, I had the same thing happen to me with mushrooms, you'll be ok soon enough.

O.P., I wouldn't even fuck with it man, buy a Trichocereus cactus or something...

Edited August 3, 2008 by Teotz'

[Siggor]

any harmful physical side effects long term? even for light dosages?

[Teotzlcoatl]

They're more mental, but ya I would imagine so... maybe not if you only did it once or twice, but why risk it?

[MindExpansion]

All mental effects have underlying physical/physiological causes. I think anyway.

Peace,

Mind

[apothecary]

Sahus in India are reported to have significant shrinkage of the brain stem.

This could very possibly be from the anti-cholinergic effects from Datura, but one cannot be sure as they are also known to smoke cobra venom and various metals such as gold.

[Teotzlcoatl]

Really? Never heard of those guys...

Why do they smoke cobra venom and metals?

I know some people in India eat silver shavings with their ice cream.

[Vertmorpheus]

I'd agree entirely with every post in this thread, somehow

I find brug to be the ultimate in deceptive plantlife... the first time I danced with her, really danced, her name was the Queen Deciever (who incidentally told be to never bother with her Son of the uppity flowers as I needed the feminine input more, which says volumes).

Any smoking or use full stop is in extremely tiny amounts, used as a medicinal. I use it for wet lungs, congestion, tick poisoning and in extremely tiny amounts to counter constriction from other things at times (dicey, not recommended, works for me).

I never make tea, so can't tell you about that. Quidding is the most common method now, medicinally, though at times it finds its way in tiny amounts (I think of a "thumbprint" from average sized leaf on MY plants as "one unit of dosage" and noone would ever be recommended more than three, ever ever ever) into combos with a much beloved salvia species. (not that one). Sometimes it gets combi'd with other bronchial medicinals in situations where lungs are too congested to tolerate the other medicine, smokewise, but that's very rare.

With ticks, I quid one "unit" every morning for a week, on alternate days, very much found to help (for ME, try it and you might die, so don't or I'll feel bad), but then thats done really to capitalise on what I find to be very much an "ordeal dreaming" anyway.

I know there is safety advice all over, but trust me even one pipe now n then can make profound and long lasting changes in your general ability to percieve how your are acting in relation to others, social norms, etc. Some of those can be very positive changes (it IS a medicine, and one that in its original setting was reserved for special cases it wasnt just toked up over a good mp3 or two) eg I personally believe it's an excellent agent in achieving a partial deathandrebirth. And it also makes you more inclined to forget that most people don't make up new words on the spot, describe things you can see in terms of sounds you might have heard, etc

I would never recommend this to anyone that honestly wants to be a "normal" person ever, ever, ever again. A few tokes won't change much. But thing is, the first one will forever make you a bit useless at working out just what's changed anyway If the cosmic fool appeals, a spot of chaos never hurts and you don't think society has ever given you anything you couldn't live without, try it. But don't belive you can effect a change in your mindset, without leaving a lil change in your MIND.

These days, shes's strictly medicinal, and not in that "no man, its medicinal" way. I keep mine kind of bonsai'd, for a few reasons... more potent newer growth... less noticeable (27 year old with a trumpet in a pot...fuck I wonder what he's interested in... doesnt matter what else you might be growing, people will see it and the first thought it "tripping fools")... I can keep it WELL out of reach of anything (my dog was found chewing hell out of a failed brug cut a month ago, til then he was always a very anxious dude thanks to his shitty life as a puppy, since then hes very, very cool but spends half his time looking for sticks about a foot long to chew to pieces). Also means local kiddies aren't tempted to duff a bag of flowers and kill themselves.

Everything in our lives changes us, somehow, even if its averting unwanted changes... it's a lil naive I think to assume you can jam some of the most warping compounds ever found int oyour system in any way without making some kind of renovations in there.

The first "literary" users of datura in Australia I know of were convicts on St Helena Island and in Tassie, who took to eating it when things got too dismal... they figured they'd die, or end up that mad that they wouldn't care anymore anyway... says something.

When I smoked it "recreationally", it would take me a few weeks sometimes to realise I'd been acting... differently... for a while. Then I'd forget... All I can say is, I've always been an extremely wordy person, a teacher in year 4 sent me home with the quest to find out what "hyperlexia" and "hypergraphia" means... but it used to make a LOT more sense. Easily 400 percent improved "clarity" for the average reader... but then... do I have that much interest in the average reader? Therein lies the answer, hm?

Valuable teacher and healer but she doesn't bulk bill, she takes her payment up front... least in the frontal haha.

KNOW your substance... not the hype surrounding it. Problem is, to really know it, you have to get to know it... and by then it's sometimes a touch too late.

VM

edity bit... if you want to work out what ANY new thing does for you, or to you, keep a diary about it. Don't name names, although it might be helpful for paramedics to revive you later on :poke: just kidding... even a few brief notes morning n night with startes like "I notice...." "I feel...." "I have..." then read back over em a couple months later... then you'll see just how much of a ding it can make.

Edited August 3, 2008 by Vertmorpheus

[hebrew]

thats a really good post VM.

its interesting you are working with quids of her, i have thought of adding small amounts to snuffs that i make.

like very small also not reccomended unless you have developed that relationship with the plant.

i plan to make perfumes from her flowers in coming months.

her wood has a place at the mesa and the plant that lives with me is well over 40 years old she is the grandmother and whispers things on occasions to me about mal air.

[apothecary]

Really? Never heard of those guys...

Why do they smoke cobra venom and metals?

I know some people in India eat silver shavings with their ice cream.

Sorry. Sadhus. Not Sahu, that is a common name of the Teli caste in India.

Do some research to gain an understanding of what they are, but the reason they smoke metals and cobra venom is the same reason they smoke Cannabis and Datura: these are the symbols of their holy pantheon and they attempt to get as close to that as possible.

[Vertmorpheus]

I've read of people smoking precious stones etc, as well. Guess some chakric correspondence might come into it, I don't know much about Hinduism etc beyond the obvious, really.

Also many spirits and elixirs in the "west" with gold and silver... some old absinthe had lots and lots of lead (see later posts in this thread... dont drink lead)... and people from copper rich areas that grew up on bore water are often found to get mad as hell without much provocation (ancedotal theory only, but holding true so far. Also shitty teeth n bones thanks to flourine).

We give crazies lithium (and use it to cook speed) and don't talk to Masons about stones, if you're square.

Heavy metal rocks out in all kinds of ways, it seems. I assume (in universal mystical shorthand kinda way, of course) that Saddhus or is it Siddhas? The guys that decide to roll all the way up the Ganges or spend 44 years with an arm in the air, etc, absorb "refined" and precious metals to attempt to harmonise (in the resonance sense) with its own cosmic vibrations (without getting too beach boys onya).

VM

Edited August 5, 2008 by Vertmorpheus

[apothecary]

any good mixes with it?

Oh and just to spruik my own thread in answer to the above

http://www.shaman-australis.com/forum/inde...?showtopic=2931

More than a few posted there use Brug and could use Brug interchangeably (with varying effects) with the other tropane containing ingredients.

[Vertmorpheus]

I had it suggested during some quiet muttering that a 50 50 combo of finely powdered middle aged leaf and root provides more in the way of... experiential "static", helps with moderating when having a smoko inasmuch as it seems more "there", than "here". Also a thicker less leafy smoke and slower burn rate helps if you tend to buy a ticket, but miss the brug bus perception wise.

Datura seed coarsely ground is an interesting admixture to smoking blends, it has a thick cloying oilyness like other seeds, once again it tends to hit more buttons and you feel you've had more, for less... it's more "work" and you get paid cash, so to speak

Straight brug root from mature specimen was found by the very hungry caterpillar to have persistant brainbuzz effect, very distracting, almost like the flicker of a flouro tube turned into intracranial sensation...almost entirely one dimensional in terms of effect, whatever it has in it, it has in spades and lil of anything else or so the Electrovertmungograph readouts indicated. But then the provider was growing in a planting with many, many weedy Amaranthus (just for Tst, haha) so maybe there's a whole OTHER idea there.

Mixes, either quid with a salvia of your selection, 1:3 in dosage terms, smoke 1:4 with powdered Esfand (tremendous, and probably not with anything else), and my mate Ongeze in Dominican Republic says it's the ticket in cases where a snake plant flight seems inexplicably grounded, but then flying in bad weather is a lot rougher, apparently.

VM

Edited August 3, 2008 by Vertmorpheus

[Fenris]

I would never recommend this to anyone that honestly wants to be a "normal" person ever, ever, ever again. A few tokes won't change much. But thing is, the first one will forever make you a bit useless at working out just what's changed anyway If the cosmic fool appeals, a spot of chaos never hurts and you don't think society has ever given you anything you couldn't live without, try it. But don't belive you can effect a change in your mindset, without leaving a lil change in your MIND.

When I smoked it "recreationally", it would take me a few weeks sometimes to realise I'd been acting... differently... for a while. Then I'd forget... All I can say is, I've always been an extremely wordy person, a teacher in year 4 sent me home with the quest to find out what "hyperlexia" and "hypergraphia" means... but it used to make a LOT more sense. Easily 400 percent improved "clarity" for the average reader... but then... do I have that much interest in the average reader? Therein lies the answer, hm?

Valuable teacher and healer but she doesn't bulk bill, she takes her payment up front... least in the frontal haha.

edity bit... if you want to work out what ANY new thing does for you, or to you, keep a diary about it. Don't name names, although it might be helpful for paramedics to revive you later on :poke: just kidding... even a few brief notes morning n night with startes like "I notice...." "I feel...." "I have..." then read back over em a couple months later... then you'll see just how much of a ding it can make.

Im aware of the negative side effects of large amounts of ingested tropanes, but I had no idea about negative side effects of smoked small amounts of it.

What would be causing the problems? The reason I ask is because certain brands of sea sick tablets contain scopolamine. Some stomach cramp medicines contain tropanes. Obviously the meds are measured doses but they don't mess you up permanently. If I taking a couple of sea sick tablets it will knock me around much more than smoking a cone of brug flower.

Are the meds going to be equally responsible for the negative side effects you describe?

Or are we more referring to malicious intent in the plant spirit realm?

[Vertmorpheus]

The cone of flower might seem to knock you around less, but bear in mind its hard to be objective about your situation and state when under the influence of one of the most powerful delusionagens around Like pissheads thinking they're ok to drive, but they're just so NOT.

Well, someone somewhere might be able to lung it back all day every day and never skip an intersocial beat... but I know I can't and I'm one of the more level headed nutjobs around.

As stated, I don't know if I've experienced anything that could be viewed only as a "problem"... it's all in how the effects, affect you and those around you.

Onceuponatime I tried the DMH route, also DPH, and something else with a G in it...escapes me now... and I really can't agree with the won't mess you up permanently bit of it.

Search around erowid methinks for a post about "gravol"... some things are never the same again.

Anyrate, divers and boaties have been known to end up in fairly altered states from scop, esp underwater in disorientating surroundings like cave complexes etc, lot about it on the freediving sites etc. And, mostly people might take seasick pills at the RECOMMENDED dose fairly infrequently...if you go into the wet stuff often enough, you dont tend to get the yaks anymore anyway.

Now assuming (I cant remember my numbers precisely but I have 490 burnt into my brain for some reason) people ar etaking a SHITLOAD of the stuff, and in very stable non sickening surroundings ie laying in bed on a wednesday night, with some coffee on board to offset drowseiness and promote the pseudolucid dream state where things start to go Wrong with a capital What... I think it may be entirely a chemical thing, or maybe any compound that can do things like these things do, will make a few changes... just the state it brings on.

I can get psychospiritual about it til the cows come home, i think personally that does come into it but I can entirely accept others have differing worldviews...so that answer won't help them any.

If nothing else, traditionally tropes are known to basically open any and all gates and doors that may be around, allowing almost anything in the vicinity more access to the parts of yourself you dont even know are there. They are utilised muchly for invocations and channelings, summonings and necromantic works by those into that kind of thing.

So if you DO take that or a similar view to things, then setting up the old defenses isn't going to hurt. Ordinarily I'd say going into otherness with a preconcieved expectation of coming under assault would doom you to misery, but in this particular case, I don't think She'd be insulted... if anything, there'd be an element of "wow, this lil man takes me seriously unlike most" perhaps.

As for meds v plants, I guess plants do have the unreliability thing to them and the whole shotgun approach to chemical composition so they could do a lil more wide ranging damage perhaps... but then some of those would function as built in "youve had enough-er-ers" to maybe prevent too much daft behaviour. Thats why I recommend adding a slow burning weighty component to brug smokes, it's kind of like fast food vs home cooked... both take up the same space in the guts but you know youve had a feed, at home! If that makes any sense.

Ultimately, if you want to experience a mental or spiritual state that would leave some fucked for life and others at least changed, regardless of route I reckon there will be some collateral "damage" but thats all in the eye of the beholder.

VM

Edited August 4, 2008 by Vertmorpheus

[t st tantra]

apparently there are brug smoking addicts in sth america........after a few years they are in a state said to be the real origin of the term zombie.....from brugmansia and datura by u and h-g preissel.

i found a definate dumbing down from regular use

there is talk of the death of brain cells

can be quite a fog/hangover following one dose

there is definately not a cross tolerance with alkaloids in different tropane bearers.

start low again with each one

t s t .

[Fenris]

Would 10% flower in a special smoking mix be something to worry about? Given that large amounts are never taken at any one time.

[Teotzlcoatl]

It may just be something people have to learn for themselves...

Just start slow and go for it.

You'll likely try it a few times (notice what it's doing to you) and never use it again.

That's what I did...

Used it for a month or two, then stoped 'cause- "I be becoming not with the smart no more"....

[hebrew]

nah man i think flowers in that special smoking mix add a definate bizarre quality to the mix, water extract smoked before that smoking mix also contributes to the experience which i think is very interesting and worht exploration only small amount of the water extract are smoked and given time to settle in. can take up to 15 minutes.

[Vertmorpheus]

Depends on the mix, how much and how often, etc. 10 percent of fuck all once every few months I can't see driving anyone out of their tree in a real hurry... but if you make a really nice blend and before you know it, have knocked off a couple oscars of it in a month, things might start to get a little... different.

Sometimes presence of brug in a blend can be the magic bullet, the skeleton key if you will... othertimes it makes it on one hand "stronger" but on the other hand,your critical faculties are a bit knocked around so while you might be twice as high, it strikes you as half as unusual.

A few tokes won't drive too many people perceptibly nuts methinks, but like most kinds of craziness, it's something you only notice well after the change haha.

It is a wonderful medicine, I find it of little to no "recreational" value other than that you can derive some kind of "fun" from just being mildly fucked up at minimal cost, etc. Some people sniff paint, so go figure.

It might only make a few very small changes but change a few wee things in a process or system and the whole thing moves a bit to one side, or whatever. A rock in a creek doesn't change the creek much, but on a very small scale it changes the dynamic of the entire watercourse down stream...the effect fade and blend in with time of course, but they're still there.

VM