50 replies to this topic

[M S Smith]

How is it even possible for Carlos to say what is and what isn't a hybrid when the plant has a history with humans for at least 3,000 years? Maybe before long we we see tables full of the non-PC T. pachanoi.

~Michael~

[Teotzlcoatl]

The notion that a species can only breed with itself and create true offspring is not held by a single botanist I have ever spoken with. Its a lot more useful concept in zoology than botany.

Seems to me this labeling isn't really worth a damn.

Silly humans attempting to catorgize everything...


I suppose a better way to go about obtaining psychoactive cacti would just be to go to South America and collect seeds or cuttings from Shamans.

but might add that if longer spined pachanoi predominate in the areas tourists photograph one reason could be selective harvest of short spined forms. I have heard it said by several travellers and by Carlos Ostolaza (when he was kind enough to visit me a few years back) that over harvesting for consumption (for locals and for a huge and still growing tourist dosing industry) accompanied by an inexplicable lack of replanting or leaving adequate biomass for regeneration has wiped out many populations of pachanoi.
One person I have corresponded with described seeing a large truck with a flatbad being loaded with tonnage bound for making brew he thought was intended for sale to shamans. That occurrence was several decades ago.

We need to get off the beaten path then and go into the wilds of South American, met the real people and the real shamans.

Why don't we get all the Trichocereus geniuses and fund a private expedition to South America.

I myself am willing to donate my time and money if others get onboard. (Not that I'm a Trichocereus genius, I was talking about other people, lol)

Edited by Teotz', 14 January 2008 - 07:24 AM.

[Gunter]

In my opinion there are a lot of plants out there that were obtained from shamanic populations via both cutting and seed. Even a lot of stuff from Knize represents things used by local people.

[Teotzlcoatl]

I'd love to see some pics of known shamanic plants.

[trucha]

Carlos is in a better position that me or anyone outside of Peru to assess that.
He was born in Peru, is highly educated and has been studying these cacti in person, in cultivation and in the wild, for around as long as I've been alive (50 years) so I would not discount him too quickly.
His thoughts are based on his own floristic studies involving dissections, real field work involving study of the known species and also study of the intermediate populations.
Botanists including Myron Kimnach, Roberto Kieseling, James Mauseth and David Hunt all hold his opinions with high regard. He is the first person in modern times to bring traditional peruvianus use to light. (I have to qualify that with the word modern as the Chroniclers of the invasion suggested it also.)
Your words above actually support the merits of his view although I know that was unintended.


I am puzzled though at one comment Michael makes:
If a person looks at the plants being sold in the witches markets those tables are already stacked full of the short spined pachanoi. A decent number of images exist in print illustrating this so surely I don't need to diverge by scanning and uploading them?
The very short spined sort that I showed an image of growing in a shaman's garden for use is in fact the vastly predominate form that gets used.
Peruvianus use is vastly smaller but does exist as does its preparation for sale in SOME of the witches markets (for instance in Cuzco).
One interesting thing friends found in the areas around Cuzco was the harvest and preparation of huge populations of cacti without a single attempt being made to plant more. This is commonly reported to be the norm not the exception.
It is growing rapidly since there is an exploding industry catering to the tourists who want to get dosed, whether for healing or for curiosity or for recreation. This is true in Ecuador and in Bolivia as well according to friends who were there this year.
Ayahuasca populations in some areas are suffering as well for the same reason. Some groups of users plant ayahuasca but many if not most do not.
Psychedelic tourism is not healthy for the plants or for traditional cultures. Already a Peruvian shaman's worth is now largely judged by his affluence, how nice his home is, whether he has air conditioning and what possessions he owns.



I know of some instances where plants were presented as being of shamanic use when recreational was a far better word for how the locals were using them.

Edited by trucha, 17 January 2008 - 05:33 AM.

[Teotzlcoatl]

Cactus- Trichocereus pachanoi
Vendor- Trichocereus sp. “Torres & Torres”obtained from S.S. in Dec. 2007.
Location of Origin- Northern Chile
Collector- Manuel & Donna Torres.

[M S Smith]

kt, my question is only that if the plant has had human intervention for at least 3,000 years how can anyone determine what is the species and not a hybrid that may itself be of a long line of hybrids that have been in the working for at least 3,000 years? Intermediate population may exist between what is currently taken to represent the "species," but can what is currently represented as the species be determined to not be a hybrid formed at some point in the past? I understand the expertise of those you mention, and I'm not "discounting" their position, but rather just asking a question to help me understand the matter.

Here is one of the tallest T. pachanoi I have ever seen. This is in the pueblo of San José in Canta, Lima, Peru.

~Michael~

Attached Files

•  Peru_Dept_Lima_RESTOS_ARQUEOL_GICOS_CUSHPA_Canta_el_monasterio_del_pueblo_de_San_Jos__alt.jpg   134.64K   68 downloads

Edited by M S Smith, 20 January 2008 - 05:43 AM.

[trucha]

Its not as hard as might be supposed but does take a lot of field work spanning some years due to the need of studying and comparing flowers not just simple vegetative morphology. Take a look at the studies of hybrid swarming among SW Opuntia species if you want to understand how this is done.
One looks for what appear to be morphological peaks (which may be species or may be stabilized hybrid swarms AKA "grex" if done deliberately), defines their distribution and then defines and studies the apparent intermediate populations and their distributions. In a sense parts of it are similar to forensic work studying the spread of a fire's development and tracking it back to its origin point. Carlos has spent years of field work studying this topic.
Ideally DNA work becomes involved at some point.


One perhaps obvious thing to keep in mind is that the plants a person encounters most often today (especially in areas with free public access) are going to be the ones that people do not eat or at least the ones they do not prefer to eat. The harvesting pressures in Peru are huge and entire populations of San Pedro in Peru have been and are being wiped out due to the peculiar human view that nature is ours to plunder as an inexhaustable supply without taking time to plant more.
Psychedelic tourism is simply not a good thing for the Peruvian populations of these plants.


Torres & Torres is certainly active but its another one that I would suggest has indigenous use that is far more aptly described as recreational than traditionally shamanic (as far as I could determine from my discussions with Manuel Torres on the subject).
Substantial recreational use of similar cacti also occurs in Argentina.

[Teotzlcoatl]

Interesting...

I'd love to here everything you know about T. pachanio sp. "Torres and Torres"

[Gunter]

I read it was found in Chile, was found to be active. It looks quite a bit like the peruvian pachanoi plants, can be a little spiney. For me is is a dark green form of average diameter and growth rate.

[trucha]

Several years ago Manuel told me they encountered it in what SEEMED to be a wild context and thought it looked like some sort of pachanoi variant.
They cut some up and cooked it in a pressure cooker (details in their "San Pedro in the pressure pot" article).
They found it was active.

I will try to obtain more details.

[trucha]

Maybe before long we we see tables full of the non-PC T. pachanoi.

~Michael~

Please clarify as I am not understanding this comment.
A person can already find tables full of those in Lima, in Cuzco, and elsewhere with witches markets. This was true at least as recently as August of 2007 but I have asked a friend presently travelling there to take a look at this also.

In Cuzco, spiny plants usually appear offered for sale with the ventral surface of the ribbing cut off as a strip along with the spines. This gives a very distinctive striped appearance to the cutting.

[Teotzlcoatl]

Several years ago Manuel told me they encountered it in what SEEMED to be a wild context and thought it looked like some sort of pachanoi variant.
They cut some up and cooked it in a pressure cooker (details in their "San Pedro in the pressure pot" article).
They found it was active.

I will try to obtain more details.

Thanks!

[M S Smith]

Please clarify as I am not understanding this comment.
A person can already find tables full of those in Lima, in Cuzco, and elsewhere with witches markets.

I only meant I would like to see tables full States-side.

~Michael~

Edited by M S Smith, 01 February 2008 - 10:41 PM.

[trucha]

Something worth understanding about the Kimnach 'pachanoi' is that Myron assigned its name not in an "either peruvianus or pachanoi" splitter sense but in the Madsen/Ritter lumper sense of all peruvianus being pachanoi. He would have labeled any peruvianus as a pachanoi.

[Teotzlcoatl]

Did I mention something about Kimnach T. pachanoi?

Because I recently obtained a cutting.

The cutting I have is DEF. Trichocereus pachanoi and NOT Trichocereus peruvianus.

I'll try to get a pic up if I ever get my damn camera back...

Edited by Teotz', 09 June 2008 - 08:10 AM.

[trucha]

A photo of a putative wild type pachanoi growing in Ecuador is now at:

http://www.largelyac...oi_Ecuador.html



I've seen both appearances arise from Myron's plant. The younger the branches the more pachanoi they look.

[M S Smith]

Here's a couple plants in Vicabamba, Ecuador.

 Ecuador_Vilcabamba_007_alt.jpg   941.82K   75 downloads

 Ecuador_Vilcabamba_005.JPG   254.35K   70 downloads

Just gorgeous!

Here's another Ecuadorian T. pachanoi.

 Ecuador_Cactus_009.jpg   192.04K   53 downloads

But now this plant in Quito, Ecuador, really throws one off a bit.

 Ecuador_Quito_5.jpg   125.52K   30 downloads

~Michael~

[trucha]

There is also this oddness growing in Oz (in NSW) that should not be forgotten about due to the white wool.


I'm still working on locating the collector/collection data but this was said to be field collected in Ecuador during the 1930s by an Australian who was living in Victoria (this is one of two different Ecuadorian field collections in Oz but both could have been from the same person.)
More details when they are in hand but I got confirmation today that this is what is believed by its present grower.


http://www.largelyac...Ecuador_Oz.html

[M S Smith]

kt, you say through the link that the white wooled plant "was said to be a wild collection from Ecuador." You also say in your previous post that it "was said to be field collected in Ecuador."

What does "wild collection" or "field collected" mean in these comments? Is the person who "said" this implying that these white wooled plants are somehow outside of human influence and are regularly represented as an Ecuadorian population?

~Michael~

[trucha]

I'm trying to determine how best to word what was said.
That is what was implied by wild but my guess is it was simply something collected in Ecuador and called wild since it was not obviously in a person's garden.
Don't read anything into it as it will get reworded at some point.
I'm not trying to imply anything by it anyway.


The person who has these said he got them after the person who collected them died so more information should be forthcoming.


The long spined stuff in Ecuador with black hairy fruit is what seems to be growing in what may be wild situations. This can be hard to tell and the reality is despite many stands not looking like they were planted, the short spined version presently does seem associated with humans anywhere it is growing. Not necessarily with houses but also with developed agricultural areas.
It would be interesting to follow Britton & Rose's lead and see if it could be found anywhere that could truly be said to be wild? Its not really "wild" anywhere in Peru despite being from one end to the other.


I'm trying to find out more about this particular collector and his activities.
There are two separate field collections (meaning someone went to another country and collected something from some field not saying anything about what sort of locale) of pachanoi from Ecuador that are presently in Oz (according to their growers) along with some interesting peruvianus and other trichs and similar. Since these seemed centered in Victoria or originating around there, I'm suspecting this is going to condense into one person, possibly the "WK" of Trichocereus sp "WK", but only time will tell.
It could no doubt go faster if I was in Oz?


Whatever I learn I'll keep posting.

Edited by trucha, 08 February 2009 - 01:06 PM.

[M S Smith]

Ha ha ha ha! Even tortoises like San Pedro.

http://realtravel.co...24-4379876.html

~Michael~

[PD.]

As far as i know Ritter had alot to do with the early Victorian collections, perhaps follow his trail??? 1920s and 30s

From November 1930 to May 1931, Ritter made a journey to South America. Upon arrival at Callao, Peru, he travelled by tram to Lima, Chosica, Matucana, and Oroya. His itinerary on the way to coffee plantations on the eastern slope of the Andes and to mission stations in the lowland tropical forest included Tarma, San Ramön, Rio Oxabamba (Oxapampa), La Merced, San Luis de Shuaro, San Juan, Metraro, and Suchiqui. Retuming to Tarma, Oroya, and Lima, he suffered from a malaria attack. At Callao Ritter boarded the steamship "Mapocho“ to Mollendo. From there he visited Arequipa and Puno by train and continued to La Paz, Bolivia (2). In February 1931 he was in Tupiza, Bolivia, and continued to Argentina and Chile, arriving back at Callao, Peru, in May 1931. On the Japanese steamship "Heiyo-Maru“ he returned to Mexico (2). The seed collections of Ritter‘s trip to South America were advertised by H. Winter in Germany in the same year (3).
In October 1931, back in Saltillo, Ritter made an exploration and collecting trip to Sonora and Baja Califomia together with his later brother-in-law Heinrich Berghoff. The seed collections went again for sale in Germany (3). On the return trip through Califomia and Arizona, Ritter had a car accident. In 1931 an advertisement of a "Cactus and Seed Exporting Association“ based in Saltillo, Coahuila, appeared in Germany (3), without name but possibly related with Ritter‘s activities. A strong competition occurred at that time between German cactus nurseries and dealers importing thousands of field-collected plants and large quantities of seeds. According to Haage (7), seeds were advertised by H. Winter as cactus seed sale in favor of poor emigrants. Ritter sent plants to specialists in Germany for identiflcation, the globular species to Friedrich Bödeker, the columnar to Wilhelm Weingart and the opuntias to Alwin Berger (12).

From December 1952 to February 1953 Ritter was in Argentina, in the provinces of San Luis, Mendoza, San Juan, Catamarca, Salta, Jujuy (7. 2. 1953 La Quiaca),
from February to July 1953 in Bolivia:
7. 2. Villazón; Tarija;
13. 2. Chorcoya -Villazón;
14. 2. Curque (a "cactus paradise“ visited by Rittter 22 years before),
23. 2. Carrizal - Oroya - Montes - Mal Paso,
24. 2. Camargo,
27. 2. Las Carreras;
7. 3. Chiguana - Ollagüe,
10. 3. Chiguana, Cerro Chiguana;
19. 3. Charaña - Río Mauri - (Rio Desaguadero) 4000 m,
19. 3. Caripe - Charaña,
21. 3. La Paz;
2. 4. Palca (Illimani), Hacienda Calchani; end of April in Sorata;
10.5. Palca - Hacienda Iquico, Chunuavi - Lambate,
7. 6. Chulumani - Ocobaya (Sud-Yungas);
22. 6. Unduavi;
4. 7-8. 7. La Paz gorge - Angostura,
9. 7. La Paz - Hacienda Tirata;
11-17. 7. Consata-basin, Ayata, Consata-valley, Río Llora -Sorata; in La Paz application for a visa to Peru;
20. 7. La Paz - Charaña;
23. 7. Arica.

From July to November 1953 Ritter made numerous collections in southern and central Peru. The diary mentions:
5. 9. Acoria (train station, Dept. of Huancavelica) - Acobamba - Marcas - Río Llircay - Marcas,
13. 9. Mantaro­river - La Mejorada,
15. 9. Huancayo,
1. 12. Chala - Quicacha. In December 1953 Ritter was in northern Chile.

From January to August 1954 Ritter travelled extensively in Chile:
in January from Antofagasta to Ovalle,
in February he visited the Maule-gorge and Mina Dolomita east of Talca and continued south to Puerto Montt, where he boarded a steamship taking him to Puerto Aisén.
On March 12, 1954, he was in Chile Chico and Puerto Ibañez. In the dry Patagonian area around Lago Buenos Aires he hoped to locate the southemmost cacti of Chile (which are still unconfirmed).
In April 1954 he visited Laguna del Laja, Chacay, and Los Angeles (Bio Bio­region, south central Chile) (2). In the same month, Ritter exchanged letters from Valparaiso with Hans Krainz of the Municipal Succulent Collection Zürich, ...

Biographical Notes on
Friedrich Ritter (1898 - 1989)

by Beat Ernst Leuenberger

[trucha]

It would be nice to access a Winter catalog from 1931 and learn what Ritter offered.
Anything coming from Ritter would have been seeds.
One element suggesting that plant probably did not come from Ritter seed is that, like Backebrg, Ritter constantly shifted his descriptions to reflect what he had learned since the description was published (Compare his originals to his Kakteen in Sudamerika)
Like Backeberg, Ritter does not mention anything other than black or brown hairs on pachanoi despite his last description of pachanoi (in which he merged it with peruvianus) being published in 1981.


It might be worth mentioning that we DO know what Ritter's mid1950s bridgesii seeds sold through Winter looks like. This was the source of the UC plant.
See the first four links at http://trout.yage.ne...gesii_pics.html for some images.
More pics of its flowers are at the pachanot page under bridgesii and Ritter's bridgesii.


I was told this pachanoi came from an Australian who collected them as living material.
One person in particular, that "WK" I mentioned, seems to have brought a fair number of cacti to Victoria himself or that is what friends there believe.
I have yet to learn his name but am working on it.
Friends in Victoria are not responding right now so I suspect they have their hands full with the ongoing tragedy?
That sure sounds intense. I wish them all the best of luck!
Our 1000 forest fires in one single night last year sounds like a Sunday afternoon barbeque by comparison.

Edited by trucha, 11 February 2009 - 05:47 AM.

[M S Smith]

Just too pretty not to share...and look how many ribs that one on the left must have. This is at Ollantaytambo, Cuzco, Peru.

 Ollantaytambo.JPG   380.03K   62 downloads

~Michael~