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papaver somniferum potency.


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#1 mr b.caapi

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Posted 19 September 2006 - 09:05 PM

what p.somniferum variety contains the strongest alkaloid yields??

Edited by mr b.caapi, 19 September 2006 - 09:06 PM.

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#2 sobriquet

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Posted 20 September 2006 - 07:32 AM

what p.somniferum variety contains the strongest alkaloid yields??


Tasmanian is the anecdotal winner.
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#3 PD.

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Posted 20 September 2006 - 09:38 AM

Tasmanian is the anecdotal winner.


I second that.

#4 sobriquet

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Posted 20 September 2006 - 05:48 PM

Basically though, all P. somniferum will produce what you're after and even the Tasmanian can have lousy yields if they are not cultivated or harvested properly.

The reason why they are considered highly is that they are bred and selected specifically for high alkaloid content.

Other varieties that can yield well and are highly esteemed are "Hen and chicks", "Giganteum" (the Turkish giant poppy), "Red ruby" (a red poppy with dark purple bases).

All can yield well though if looked after. The keys to maximising yields is to ensure good conditions that promote high vegetative growth so you have bigger plants going to flower.

Next most important is harvesting at the right time, and this requires some skill to determine but as a rough guide 10-14 days after the petals drop (during which you do not water the plants) is the peak alkaloid period.


Good luck.
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#5 Pisgah

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Posted 21 September 2006 - 01:52 PM

I would have agreed with the Tasmanian as the strongest, until I grew the Afghan white and pink lacinatum petal strain.

Significantly more pleasant right out of the pod. My guess from bioassay is that the M content is significantly higher in the profile, which would make sense given its' commercial application for H production. I have not done any quantitative analysis however. Merely extensive bioassay.

It is the only strain I am going to grow this coming season. And I have grown them all.
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#6 PD.

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Posted 21 September 2006 - 02:03 PM

What is the strain in your avatar Pisgah? It looks identical to the tassie strain my friends nanna grew last season.

#7 sobriquet

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Posted 21 September 2006 - 03:30 PM

I would have agreed with the Tasmanian as the strongest, until I grew the Afghan white and pink lacinatum petal strain.

Significantly more pleasant right out of the pod. My guess from bioassay is that the M content is significantly higher in the profile, which would make sense given its' commercial application for H production. I have not done any quantitative analysis however. Merely extensive bioassay.

It is the only strain I am going to grow this coming season. And I have grown them all.


One can only hope that your Afghan strain somehow appears on these shores.
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#8 Rev

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Posted 21 September 2006 - 08:21 PM

A FOAF told me about the bulk seed packs available *still* from indian food wholesalers

less than $3 for big packs. all viable

white seed with odd brown and red seeds
light green plants with these sorts of flowers
Posted Image
latex pink straight after petal drop, white and copious thereafter
latex eaten straight off 2 pods was noticeably euphoric
thats all details shared.

at least peeps arent lmited to modern 'norman' strain tassie seeds

#9 mr b.caapi

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Posted 21 September 2006 - 08:24 PM

ok , and what state are these "indian food-wholesalers" situated ?? :rolleyes:

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#10 sobriquet

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Posted 21 September 2006 - 08:45 PM

A FOAF told me about the bulk seed packs available *still* from indian food wholesalers

less than $3 for big packs. all viable

white seed with odd brown and red seeds


A while back afoaf grew these Indian white poppy seeds and found that the flowers were uniformly white and the plants matured earlier than Tasmanians with fewer flowers per plant. Quality of the milk was apparently only average but plentiful. I believe these seeds are merely the seed of the Indian poppy crop grown traditionally as the world's legal source of opium.

Seeds look like this:

Posted Image

Unfortunately the colour of the seeds don't correspond strongly with flower colour. Maybe the delicatessen or shop involved matters ie. Afghani / Pakistani shops may be different source to Indian.

Will pass this info on to relevant person and he may have to trial some more white seeds from different "Indian" sources and assess results.

Thanks for the tip.
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#11 gomaos

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Posted 21 September 2006 - 10:54 PM

a foaf said, it very much depends on growing conditions.
He accidentally dropped a few (no name, "woolies") poppy seeds in a huge flower pot filled with real premium potting mix, watered daily with some fertilizer, and , wow, what a huge plant... (maybe not as big as the ones in tasmania, but a real good looker)...
and foaf is quite sure, the potency will be good too...

#12 Rev

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Posted 21 September 2006 - 10:58 PM

all states ive been in

not as common as they once were but still about

quite abundant in SE qld in particular

there are significant differences in the seed colours of diff batches , from pure white/cream, through various proportions of red, brown and black seeds in the mix. side by side diff seed btaches are very obviously from diff sources / varieties

A book on the matter indicates that india has many many landraces and varieties of poppy from which seed and opium are collected. No doubt with enough sampling youll get many of them
some are better for opium and others for seed, but seed is collected from all as part of the harvest and woudl enter the marketplace

The FOAF tells me they have grown out several flower types too
pure whites, single ruffles, and this two tone pink one.

Remember India and Turkey produce 80% of the worlds legal opium
you used to be able to buy turkish seed too - it was blue grey
but i havent seen that in years now
i gues the whites might slip by in mixed shipmnets unnoticed or ignored???
just like Ephedra sinesisis still makes it to chinese herbalists

personally my fave use for poppy seed is to roll salmon cutlets in before pan frying and dressing with the juice of a fresh sweet orange

Edited by Rev, 21 September 2006 - 11:04 PM.


#13 Rev

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Posted 21 September 2006 - 11:07 PM

on that culinary note
i have to go ingredients shopping tomorrow

il get some extra seed.
PM me if you need any
as i said they are dcent bags and im sure they are less than $3 - or near it anyway

on a first come basis and for eating only of course

#14 transDiMenTional

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Posted 22 September 2006 - 01:09 AM

What of the white poppy seed available at my local store? are they pap som as well? They have bags labelled blue poppy seed and white poppy seed. I thought that pap som seed is always blue but now i wonder about the white ones.

man im tired.. does that make anuy sense?? :wacko: :blush:
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#15 Pagan

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Posted 22 September 2006 - 12:29 PM

cc

Edited by Pagan, 04 October 2006 - 09:05 AM.


#16 Pisgah

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Posted 22 September 2006 - 03:58 PM

What is the strain in your avatar Pisgah? It looks identical to the tassie strain my friends nanna grew last season.


My avatar is tassie.
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#17 Pisgah

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Posted 22 September 2006 - 04:00 PM

One can only hope that your Afghan strain somehow appears on these shores.


PM me.
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#18 Pisgah

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Posted 22 September 2006 - 04:03 PM

white seed with odd brown and red seeds
light green plants with these sorts of flowers
Posted Image
latex pink straight after petal drop, white and copious thereafter
latex eaten straight off 2 pods was noticeably euphoric
thats all details shared.

at least peeps arent lmited to modern 'norman' strain tassie seeds


Looks like the heavy business Rev. Right kind of flower.

The old man in the pic knows his stuff...
Eight, eight, I forget what eight was for...

#19 transDiMenTional

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Posted 22 September 2006 - 04:08 PM

JJ Torsten seems to a tad busy at the moment. Thought you might know if the Black food grade Papaver Somniferum are for growing or consuming. Cheers mate.


ok i can field that one... Growing papaver somniferum in australia is illegal so yes these seeds are for consumption only.. they are likely viable tho so be careful that u dont accidently spill any in ur garden ;)
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#20 DreamingNagual

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Posted 22 September 2006 - 11:06 PM

Sorry to Hijack,
Gomaos can you PM me if possible :wink:
Sorry again,
Cheers.
Regards,
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#21 plastid

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Posted 22 September 2006 - 11:11 PM

The bluish seeds sold under the Masterfoods brand in Coles last year apparently give flowers just like Pisgah's avatar. Have also seen them described as amethyst variety.

#22 VelvetSiren

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Posted 23 September 2006 - 07:00 AM

The bluish seeds sold under the Masterfoods brand in Coles last year apparently give flowers just like Pisgah's avatar. Have also seen them described as amethyst variety.



i thought they were known as tazmanians?
the one known as hebrew

#23 sobriquet

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Posted 23 September 2006 - 11:05 AM

The bluish seeds sold under the Masterfoods brand in Coles last year apparently give flowers just like Pisgah's avatar. Have also seen them described as amethyst variety.


The Tasmanian and Dutch commercial flowers look very similar and I would reckon are from the same original progenitor. The Dutch P. somniferum grows well in the rather wet and colder climate and Tasmania has a similar sort of climate. The Tasmanian seed grown for morphine (as opposed to the predominantly thebaine type "Norman" strain) probably isn't all too different from the standard Dutch variety except for climatic adaptation and selection for high morphine. I'm not sure where the original Tasmanian seed came from but if I had to guess it would be the Dutch stock which they appear very similar to. It could be the other way around also but given that P. somni is an introduced species in Tassie, and commercial production is only recent ie. since the 1970's I'd bet it's a Dutch import originally.

Here's an image "Fogle" from the poppies.org site has posted of a commercial Dutch field.

Posted Image

from: http://forum.poppies...p...46&hl=Dutch

The features of the Dutch poppy are:

1. Tolerates colder climates better.
2. Not GM - whereas Tasmanians are almost certainly at least with the Norman strain.
3. Mediocre alkaloid yield, but would be no worse than an average strain especially if given the right growing conditions.
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#24 sobriquet

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Posted 23 September 2006 - 11:13 AM

Posted Image

Looks like the heavy business Rev. Right kind of flower.

The old man in the pic knows his stuff...


I think this is quite right. While I think any poppy variety can give you high yields of alkaloids if you consistently select for it in your growing program, with the Afghan poppy this has been done for you!

Experienced growers who are trying to maximise opium production, flow, as well as high alkaloid quality have been selecting seed from their best pods for many seasons on end.

So it stands to reason that if there is going to be one best variety for growing for the small time poppy grower, it would be the Afghan. The result of years of selection for high alkaloid and opium yield.
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#25 PD.

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Posted 23 September 2006 - 01:36 PM

The tas and dutch certainly do look similar, here is a pic of a friends tassie strain grown as a winter display.

Posted Image

This is NOT the "norman" strain, but the original. :)