Native plants as fish poisons...

[gtarman]

I've been interested lately in finding out more about which native Australian plants were used by the aboriginals as fish poisons - does anybody know more? Mechanisms of action would be cool to find out...and I've always been curious to know if it would have been particularly safe or healthy to eat poisoned fish :-/

The fish poisons I've heard of so far are the following - but mostly all I know are the names (I've added whatever info I could find)...if anyone had more info on the use and mechanisms of action that would be awesome!

Indigofera australis - leaves crushed to stun/kill fish

Acacia longifolia

Acacia implexa

Persicaria spp.

Duboisia myoporoides

Planchonia careya - bark used to stun fish

Nauclea orientalis - bark and roots used

Syzygium forte - bark, seed and leaves used

Polygonum hydropiper

Jagera pseudorrhus - under-bark frothed in water bodies to stun fish

Edited February 7, 2015 by gtarman

[Gimli]

The Australian aborigines crushed the leaves and added these to water to kill or stun fish and eels

This any help?

http://www.primitiveways.com/fish_poison.html

[☽Ţ ҉ĥϋηϠ₡яღ☯ॐ€ðяئॐ♡Pϟiℓℴϟℴ]

pretty sure you might be able to add acacia simplicifolia if its native there,

not sure if its origin is isolated to new caledonia and fijii etc

sorry if perhaps its non native to Aus'

[Halcyon Daze]

I'm pretty sure most of these plants simply eliminate the oxygen from the water, suffocating the fish.

The fish that don't fully die usually go back to normal when the plant juice flushes out of the waterhole, and there is no poisonous residue in the fish.

[Berengar]

Most plants used as fish poisons contain saponins, which are very toxic to fish, but not to mammals. Sometimes, as HD said, they only suffocate the fish by depriving the water of oxygen, but some of them really kill them. In both cases, the fish are safe to eat.

[katu]

I remember reading somewhere that some Dodonaea sp were employed as fish poisons, viscosa maybe? Definately a rich source of saponins.

[coolname]

there is another one called the soap tree, Alphitonia excelsior (i may have spelt that wrong) which is full of saponins. you can use the leaves to wash your hands and they also have antibacterial properties. i use it all the time when i am fishing or in the bush to keep my hands clean and any small cuts disinfected.

there is also some type of acacia that is called 'fish poison tree' in north qld but i don't know which species it is

[tarenna]

You can add Foambark (Jagera pseudorrhus) to the list - the under-bark was frothed (as the name implies) in water bodies to stun fish.

[theuserformallyknownasd00d]

How irresponsible would it be to try some of these plants, if they were local, in some local watering holes?

[Berengar]

It would likely be illegal, but not exactly harmful to the ecosystem.

[theuserformallyknownasd00d]

Aslong as it won't harm then sounds like a fun experiment for a rainy day!

[altenate]

Not at all Prioritise ... maybe illegal by the powers that be but thats how the locals did it for years!!

Id be keen to try that out! Thanks for the info....

Any one know amounts or tried this??

I'm wondering how much plant per m cubed of water. Are we talking Kilos?

Ill try it in my fish tank one day if i get bored by my fish ;)

Would those plants work on mozzies & removing them from a water storage container/bathtubs??

I still want the oxygen exchange thing to happen for the plants in them.

[gtarman]

How irresponsible would it be to try some of these plants, if they were local, in some local watering holes?

I'd just be worried about which watering hole, and the state of the ecosystem there...if it's one where the native/endemic fish are struggling I'd be careful, you wouldn't wanna polish them off or kill the babies or the breeding ones. If it's just some introduced pest species or the fish are plentiful then I probably wouldn't worry so much either. Just gotta always keep in mind to only take what you need and what nature can replace, but I'm sure you know that anyway ;)

[gtarman]

Also I doubt it would kill mozzies Altenate...I don't think they depend on water in quite the same way as fish do, being flying insects. Maybe at the larval stage but I'd still be doubtful. I'm sure there are other ways of tackling that problem though.

[theuserformallyknownasd00d]

Mozzies come up to the surface to breathe (far as I know) alt so probs won't work.. I've used neem in my water chestnut pond and kept em at bay, just need a thin coating of the water surface, not much is required...

[theuserformallyknownasd00d]

Gman, I've got a local flood way going up behind my house which is full of eels... I'll double check what you've said tho. I've got eels outta it on cotton wool and molasses so thought it's be a good place to start considering it's full of trash!

But yeh good q about the amount... When in bored I'll start experimenting in buckets first to see which ones get soapy etc

[altenate]

the main one ive researched (but not tried to catch fish with ) is Duboisia myoporides.

That expression "like stunned Mullet" prob comes from putting it into fish habitats !!!!

they would prob be floating awkwardly upside down with big pupils!!

We have stacks of carp in the water ways around here. also some mother fucking huge eels!

But they aint good eating but would be nice to remove them. Eels aint bad though...

Gotta do something with soaking them in milk (carp, that is) to make them edible from memory.... prob much better as fertiliser though!!

Its the massive trout I want to catch!! ;) But would this tek be akin to tickling them? Again thats illegal.....but they are so big & im shite at fishing.....

Thanks gtarman & prioritise - its the larval mozzie stage im interested in removing. Ill give it a go & get back to ya....

Ill try the neem in the calamus pond, but ive only got fresh neem....so will see what transpires.

Thanks for the info & sorry to get a bit off topic! interesting thread

[theuserformallyknownasd00d]

Get onto google and order some mozzie dunks from eu or the us. Best thing I've used! If you could help me culture the bacteria even better ;)

[Freewheelin]

I'm pretty sure most of these plants simply eliminate the oxygen from the water, suffocating the fish.

The fish that don't fully die usually go back to normal when the plant juice flushes out of the waterhole, and there is no poisonous residue in the fish.

This is true of rotenone which is why it's effective, and safe to eat. I didn't really think about the ones that survived before. I feel happier now, Ty HD

[Freewheelin]

How irresponsible would it be to try some of these plants, if they were local, in some local watering holes?

I'm pretty sure everything is legal if no one sees you

[gtarman]

Ok so I spoke to another very knowledgeable member here of indigenous background today, and just wanted to pass along that non-indigenous folks doing this in waterways is apparently a BIG no-no. I'm told that there's very specific aboriginal lore around how and when this is done and who it can be done by.

If in doubt I'd say speak to some local mob in your neck of the woods to find out what the go is before trying anything like this. Or maybe just try it out in a man-made dam somewhere that has fish in it?

[☽Ţ ҉ĥϋηϠ₡яღ☯ॐ€ðяئॐ♡Pϟiℓℴϟℴ]

Entada Phaseoloides

[☽Ţ ҉ĥϋηϠ₡яღ☯ॐ€ðяئॐ♡Pϟiℓℴϟℴ]

@ altenate - over my way i hear that you get a fine in your country if you catch a carp and put it back

is that true?

sounds nice and i hope its true , carp are messing up our clear water loving fishes' fave places over here too

but theyve been pedestal'd to fame here

Edited June 11, 2015 by ☽Ţ ҉ĥϋηϠ₡яღ☯ॐ€ðяئॐ♡Pϟiℓℴϟℴ

[☽Ţ ҉ĥϋηϠ₡яღ☯ॐ€ðяئॐ♡Pϟiℓℴϟℴ]

Acacia penninervis

[ThunderIdeal]

isn't it interesting that aboriginal folk had their own form of environmental regulations. they were probably accustomed to an environment in stasis with cycles but few real changes. that stasis has been tossed aside now, with respect i'd venture that their traditions mitigated imbalance in how much they took from the environment but they mightn't be relied on now that the environment is in a state of chaos.