Plant consciousness

[tipz]

In answer to your OP Nightbreed..

My first love affair with plants was good old cannabis sativa - My real eye opener was with fungi which led me to the obsession with ethnobotanicals. I have since worked with many of our well known entheogens in various settings and can say that they have opened my mind so much. I have had some pretty difficult introspective journey's and some amazing epiphanic experiences. They have taught me more than my peers and family combined.

I am a strong believer in 'plant consciousness' ( it is too easy to be caught up with symantics talking of such things ) after all - 'science' now shows us that 'everything' is just energy and vibration right ?

[NightBreed]

Thats what I want to hear! Not weather or not plants can feel because I believe they can and can communicate and no discussion is going to change that. Im looking for peoples thoughts on how their own mind or awareness has grown or chamged due to them coming into your life in some way. Because they came I to my life and communicate with me and have changes my life immensely. Im not hear to debate weather this is real or not.

[gwalchgwyn]

The ingredients for aya as we all know contain both an Maoi and the relevant tryptamines. Lets use for example viridis and caapi ( ignoring the various admixtures and different brews )

I wonder how the shamans discovered this combination ? It seems to my mind ( mathematically incompetent as it is ) that the odds of stumbling across the combo is millions upon millions to one ( is that right ?? I dunno - im shit at math )

I was with Davis in his appreciation over this very subject when I read it in his One River, but have since become disenchanted by Westerners's amazement with the intelligence of other people. It relates to the Noble Savage mindset in which the unspoken premise is that the people they call 'native' and 'indigenous' couldn't possibly know that, could they, without the benefit of modern science, etc?

In the example of caapi, the myopic Western Science[!] Messiahs are stumped by the lack of 'citation' or the much beloved 'evidence' for a clear proof of caapi use in Amazonia. They may be relieved at some point perhaps in some strata of Black Earth of some datable piece of caapi. Probably not. No evidence, so therefor we cannot say when caapi use began in Amazonia.

Science has been around since before people. Beings look to their world, learn from experience, watch and listen to others, and then form an understanding from that knowledge. Bears have science. For that matter, many humans have a science that comes from watching and learning from the knowledge of bears!

In the case of the peoples who inhabited Amazonia, the perception of plants is clearly different from much of the peoples of the modern world. My neighbor only knows plants inasmuch as he is told. The majority of nature is out there in the wilderness. This is not to say that he doesn't appreciate a wildflower in his yard, but the overall attitude is that plants somehow are submissive entities that need to be proved into his world. Contrast that common modern attitude with a worldview in which people are part of the same existence as plants - all plants. It is not unreasonable to conjecture that people who have been socialized to perceive all plants as relevant will make more effort to observe which plants might be used for food, medicine, and poison. There are other 'amazements' in the Amazon, such as the knowledge of toxin extraction from bitter Casava, or the knowledge of plants that make fish die, or the knowledge of frog poison that can be used to kill a monkey or an enemy.

If we look at the number of additives to caapi - in addition to the two essential ingredients - we can see a huge list of plants that are used for various effects. This shows a set of cultural perceptions in which there is a high degree and long history of observation and practice and shared knowledge. If we look at the extensive period of self-training in shamanic society, we see the same purposive observant attitude (think Shulgin) toward the plant subjects. I find it unreasonable to conclude that the caapi knowledge - as awesome as it is - to be a matter of amazement in societies that have such keen tradition and inclusion of plants in their worldview. In addition, it seems likely that the peoples who inhabited Amazonia have been relating to plants in this way as long as they have been there.

[Godiam]

Just my two bobs worth,

I spent some time in South America 12 months ago, mainly Peru, and a little side trip to Columbia,

What I learnt in Peru, from a Currandero, is that the Plant Spirits do communicate to the Shamans, and they will diet (Dieta) a specific plant to open the communication channels with that particular species,

Dieting a plant involves a very basic diet, and eating a leaf, making a tea from a leaf, and placing a leaf under ones pillow every night,it is with this method, that the Healers are able to get messages from the plants.

Like Tipz said, the chances of finding this combination, (Cappi and Viridis) through trial and error are astronomical, and I totally believe that the plants do communicate with people,

Cheers Godiam.

[Slocombe]

( nice link GHBeer - that is from the bbc doco "plants sex and drugs" right ? Very cool doco ! )

Not sure where its from tipz but I will check out 'plants sex and drugs' (with a title like that I can't not check it out!)

[Dreamwalker.]

I was tramping in the mountains...and slept next to a virgin Totara forest, for a few nights (same place).. at twilight every night the trees would talk/sing, a chatter that seemed to go on for hours ...it was as if their words were almost understandable......

Totara tree pic from

http://ontarions.travellerspoint.com/57/

Edited February 25, 2015 by Dreamwalker.

[IndianDreaming]

I have had an experience that changed the way I thought of plants and how they could 'communicate'.

I was wandering alone at night away from a bush doof in a really good mood. I'd been talking to someone earlier about chatting with plants and my opinion at the time was that it was mostly hippy waffle, but in my mind, there isn't much that is impossible, so without further ado, I locked it in my mind to try chatting with a plant - even though they have no mouth.

As I wandered, hours later, when I had completely forgotten about my intent to communicate with a plant, I was poked in the leg by a stick. The stick was attached to a plant, and I lazily fondled the stick and ran my fingers along it's length feeling it and touching it. I moved up the stem and got to the leaves and a feeling came over me like I was playing with a puppy, I grinned and tickled the plant in a cheeky fashion and nuzzled my head into it's leaves like a puppy would and rubbed my face all over it giggling and really getting into it. As I did this, my mind wandered and was filled with injuries I'd sustained as a kid, a sprained ankle, a broken shoulder, and more, they just popped into my head like random thoughts one after another in succession, and I hadn't thought those thoughts for donkeys years... It instantly occurred to me that these mental images I was having had somehow been inspired by this plant, and that this plant was 'telling' me - 'Hey! I'm really good for anti inflammatory effects! Come see me next time you bang yourself about you dill, I can see you've done it heaps of times before, look at the images in your head!' - I nearly fell over with delight.

I took a few samples, ran back to tell everyone who thought I had gone stark raving mad, took the plat to a knowledgeable fellow and asked about it (without letting him know what I'd experienced so his answer couldn't be biased) and he said "I can't remember the name of it, but if you smash up the leaves and bung it on a bruise or sore it'll decrease the swelling"

Some people have said to me 'oh it was just the smell that triggered the memories, and so on and so on' But personally, for me it's not conclusive proof a plant can speak, but I don't need conclusive proof, I learned how to be more in tune with nature that day - The fact that it was a plant having a chat with me, or my own mind being very clever and reminding me things I'd forgotten, isn't important, the knowledge that I can do those things is, and I'm more open to experiences like that since then and now I've had many - many many and they're awesome.

[☽Ţ ҉ĥϋηϠ₡яღ☯ॐ€ðяئॐ♡Pϟiℓℴϟℴ]

my caapi's visit dreams since they were born so do some tricho's , terscheck "talks" in the daylight boldly

and also my caapi's "jump" when i turn the light on sometimes

[Seldom]

interesting discussion, good to hear different people's experience and perspectives . in the way it appears to me, they undoubtedly do, yet in a pre-reflective, primitive or primordial kind of way. I've never heard explicit, linguistically transmitted teachings. rather i've experienced plants setting up the pre-linguistic conditions which structure how the pre-conscious mind delivers meaning in such a way as to lead it toward particular realisations. in a sense they're teachers of the Socratic kind, wherein they lead or coax the pure stream of bare consciousness in a particular direction, colour it with a certain shade, imbue it with a certain quality (really trying to explain this runs up against the limits of language) which helps generate specific realisations.

i believe it's always unique with each individual, and i think no one's experience should be discounted because it may differ from anyone else's, but the teachings appear to me in the form of emotional, somatic, visual or audiological alterations, and not linguistic transmissions. I have of coarse experienced intensification of linguistic meaning, be it in the form of an inner or outer monologue that arrives like an unstoppable avalanche, but the plants have never spoken to me in the queen's English, they just set up conditions. Honestly, I find English is not all that helpful for integrating psychedelic experiences into everyday life, and is just inadequate for communicating them to others. to use an analogy when i learn different techniques on the didjeridoo, language is of no use, i've just learned something new that doesn't require words, that enables me to play a different way . likewise with plants i've just received something from them that enables me to see and inhabit my world in a different way.

Cheers for the thread

[NightBreed]

Seldom my thoughts exactly! Thanks for putting that in words and I know its hard.

[bogfrog]

The most surprising experience I have had was with a nz fuschia..

I was meandering along banks of the one if my favourite local rivers and came across this massive fuschia which was growing over a boulder with huge gnarled roots spreading out like an octopus. I thought 'this tree is a bit different' so I sat down next to it, placed my hand on a large burl which looked just like a baby-bump and closed my eyes.. Said hello with my energy, and settled my mind.

I sat like this for a few minutes, and then received the shock of my life. Literally.

I felt a kick. Like a big burst of energy that shot outwards from within the tree and physically impacted against my hand.

The sensation was undeniable and I've never experienced anything else quite like it.

I was pretty dumbfounded, and wasn't sure how to feel. It was dusk and the forest began to feel different as the darkness collected around me, so I gave thanks for this message - whatever it may mean - and left slowly and quietly, projecting my upmost respect for this tree and the river and forest which was its home.

I still don't know exactly what to make of it, in all honesty it scared me, but at the same time I was deeply humbled by what had happened.

What an interesting thread :D

[NightBreed]

Wow thats an amzing story ghost cat! I think its all about freeing your mind or letting go of preconseptions and having no thoughts so you can connect. Its a subtle energy after all and you need to clear a space for that subtle energy to come through.

[DiscoStu]

i was walking home tonight on my bung foot, and started thinking,

assuming plants do have actual cognitive processes, where do these occur?

(e.g. it's known that the centre of human thought is not in the big toe)

and then comes the problem of cloning, if you clone a plant does the new plant retain all the "memories" of the old plant?

how?

can the old plant recognise the new plant as different or are they the same?

[DiscoStu]

and then comes the problem of feelings.

it's thought that plants may experience a kind of pain. so all that chopping and clipping you do to your favourite plants, do they resent you for it?

if you clone a plant does the clone retain memory of that pain and resent you too?

does your whole garden hate your guts?

edited for intelligibility

Edited July 14, 2014 by bot6

[tipz]

interesting discussion, good to hear different people's experience and perspectives . in the way it appears to me, they undoubtedly do, yet in a pre-reflective, primitive or primordial kind of way. I've never heard explicit, linguistically transmitted teachings. rather i've experienced plants setting up the pre-linguistic conditions which structure how the pre-conscious mind delivers meaning in such a way as to lead it toward particular realisations. in a sense they're teachers of the Socratic kind, wherein they lead or coax the pure stream of bare consciousness in a particular direction, colour it with a certain shade, imbue it with a certain quality (really trying to explain this runs up against the limits of language) which helps generate specific realisations.

i believe it's always unique with each individual, and i think no one's experience should be discounted because it may differ from anyone else's, but the teachings appear to me in the form of emotional, somatic, visual or audiological alterations, and not linguistic transmissions. I have of coarse experienced intensification of linguistic meaning, be it in the form of an inner or outer monologue that arrives like an unstoppable avalanche, but the plants have never spoken to me in the queen's English, they just set up conditions. Honestly, I find English is not all that helpful for integrating psychedelic experiences into everyday life, and is just inadequate for communicating them to others. to use an analogy when i learn different techniques on the didjeridoo, language is of no use, i've just learned something new that doesn't require words, that enables me to play a different way . likewise with plants i've just received something from them that enables me to see and inhabit my world in a different way.

Cheers for the thread

You are a wonderful wordsmith Seldom

[∂an]

For me, plants communicate primarily through their visual appearance. Whether it be the contrasting green and gold of wattles, the blue glow of gum trees or the moss and lichen encrusted bark of Antarctic beech, the primary message of plants seems to be the beauty of existence and the virtue of patience.

[☽Ţ ҉ĥϋηϠ₡яღ☯ॐ€ðяئॐ♡Pϟiℓℴϟℴ]

@Ceres , that's the fae mate

, wait till they start throwing berries when there's no squirrels around ;) and if you leave honey , home baked cookies ,,,,

and shiny things : ] ....

at the base of the plant ...

its fun x]

and more things happen

[Planthunter]

Nightbreed, thank you for opening this thread. This is a fascinating read. I'm no wordsmith and struggle to get my thoughts from inside my head, then translate them into cohearant words or onto paper, computer screen ect. I need to think this through before I say much more really...

To talk about plants in this way to me is like a confession of knowledge of a greater understanding. To talk openly without the fear of ridicle about this knowledge is liberating to say the least.

You don't have to understand the experiences, thoughts, coincidences that come with that green whisper... You just need to have that open mind and desire to communicate with them... You just need to "feel" and trust your feelings...

To realize through reading everyones candid experiences here that my own are not the delusions of a madman are reasuring...

[NightBreed]

Planthunter your welcome, I think it is very liberating to talk about things that our society try to dismiss in all forms. My native American ancestors would have thought we were crazy for even having this discussion because OF COURSE plants can feel and comunicate! Thats why Terence mckenna says that our culture is our enemy. We have to change it and bring our kids up to see nature for what it really is and to see the machine of society for what it really is. Any ways sorry about that I always go on about soceity this and that. I have always been called to plants for some reason and I have lived in 35 cities in 5 different countries so it was hard to always have plants in my life. One time I travelled accros America in a 1980 chevy step van and had a potted bonsai jade tree that travelled 10,000 miles and got to see the whole country. I had to leave it with a friend in Portland Oregon and I told her its storey and that she had to take care of him because hes a speceial plant that loves to travel.

But now im in Australia and have heard the calling again for plants and over the last couple years have grown quite the nice collection of medicinal ornamental and shamanic plants and in doing so I have grown within my self my marrage and my professional life. Leaps and bounds I would say. The more connected I get to my plants the more I see my own deepest problems in front of me for me to fix. I can see things clearer. I can slow down and appreciate my life and the simple things.

I have been opening up to the plant consciousness in my garden a lot over the last few months more than ever. I have to say that there is something in the back of my mind pulling me towards what is good for me and my own evolution. I swear it has everything to do with my taking care of my plants. The more I open up to them and help them grow the more something in me opens up. Like a link or bond between me and my higher power.

I believe that this is the link or bond that our Gov or what ever force you want to call it (capitalism) wants to distroy. If we have this bond like my native American ancestors used to have we become more powerfull than them and they dont want that. So you get what weve got here and that is a fear of the unknown in our society. Do plants feel? Are you crazy of course not! Go back to sleep!

Edited July 17, 2014 by NightBreed

[someone]

There is a cool doc on netflix now, for those who have it, called nature: what plants talk about. I think it is relevant to this thread and was pretty interesting and informative.

[wert]

Yes like everything within your anatomy is connected to the pooh pooh valve.. the entire universe is connected to your pooh pooh valve.

[wert]

No shit its true.

[Optimystic]

I had pretty much the same experience as the OP.., they are really good guides definitely

i've had alot of plants show me things from japanese maples to turmeric rhizomes! but I

think of most matter as having some sort of life in it... we're pretty much recycled star poop,

arent we?

anyways, if you have trouble understanding what the plants are telling you, ask the birds!

here is the full episode of the vid that was posted previously

just saw it the other day it features some very interesting plants

amazing stuffs

http://youtu.be/vNWByUk22sI

[ThunderIdeal]

i was given a book about findhorn garden which i haven't read but thought it would be good to mention here (somebody already did).

i don't recall any experiences involving plant communication but my mum reckons a room full of people saw a plant tremble when she said hello to it. i do think there is a set of points where reductionism works, and a set of points where it can be applied but only as some kind of buzzkill, and then there's the area where it doesn't even make sense to expect that a tidy answer could be possible. if you're only interested in those kinds of answers then you can't be all that interested in questions i reckon. are there "plant spirits" in our trips? nobody can say with authority, although there's basically nothing to support the idea scientifically.

somebody alluded to the fact that plants don't have a neat outline like many animals do, plants don't have crucial parts (eg head and torso) or even features really. you can divide a plant in half, or into 100. the humble node is the closest thing they have to, well, to a node. each little section of tissues is basically an autonomous section of tissues that can react to various scenarios and has all the makings to keep booming whether on it's own or attached to a larger collection of autonomous sections of tissue, so their consciousness could be sort of fractal considering the lifeform itself is a sort of fractal. anyway it's hard to imagine a sophisticated mind arising from what is basically a colony of cells. yeah they're alive but they've only got the biological means to think about plant stuff and interact with the environment in planty ways, and all this in a decentralised way.... so i basically invoke mysterious spirit forces to explain why plants are MAYBE beings of such wisdom that their visits almost incomprehensible while seeming to be representative of tantalising truths, truths usually far and beyond our little strata.

if one could simply change ones genome by thinking about it then why didn't humans simply evolve wings instead of having to invent machines which could fly?

the more likely explanation for "sticky seed" is natural selection (over timeframes which individual humans are unaccustomed to).

yeah, unorchestrated permutations is a satisfactory explanation to me, and the official explanation, although maybe we are missing a big part of the picture for now.

why do old tree trunks seem to corkscrew?

do the roots do the same?

Edited August 9, 2014 by ThunderIdeal

[DiscoStu]

 

 

i think if "we" were ever to invent artificial consciousness, it will be done with something like carbon nanotubes. there's no way you could develop the necessary components using todays current microchip technology, you'd run out of space for a start.

 

 

 

A review and update of a controversial 20-year-old theory of consciousness published in Elsevier’s Physics of Life Reviews (open access) claims that consciousness derives from deeper-level, finer-scale activities inside brain neurons.

 

 

 

 

The recent discovery of quantum vibrations in microtubules inside brain neurons corroborates this theory, according to review authors Stuart Hameroff and Sir Roger Penrose. They suggest that EEG rhythms (brain waves) also derive from deeper level microtubule vibrations, and that from a practical standpoint, treating brain microtubule vibrations could benefit a host of mental, neurological, and cognitive conditions.

 

 

 

 

Microtubules are major components of the structural skeleton of cells.

 

 

 

 

The theory, called “orchestrated objective reduction” (“Orch OR”), was first put forward in the mid-1990s by eminent mathematical physicist Sir Roger Penrose, FRS, Mathematical Institute and Wadham College, University of Oxford, and prominent anesthesiologist Stuart Hameroff, MD, Anesthesiology, Psychology and Center for Consciousness Studies, The University of Arizona, Tucson.

 

 

 

 

http://www.kurzweilai.net/discovery-of-quantum-vibrations-in-microtubules-inside-brain-neurons-corroborates-controversial-20-year-old-theory-of-consciousness

 

 

 

 

it seems far more likely, and more desirable, that by 2045 we've cured virtually all disease including ageing.

 

 

noooo, so no one ever dies? there's enough strain on the earths resources as it is, never mind with the population approaching 20-30 billion