in_spirit Posted December 15, 2014 Why does this this seem so unreal -'order out of chaos'?? It just seems to fit in with all the hype by media and politicians, i mean i hope no-one gets hurt more than the psyvhological damage, regardless of who has created the chaos, but i question????????? 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
paradox Posted December 15, 2014 terrorism? or just one stupid nut acting like a massive fuckwit? if it isn't a gov conspiracy then the guy doing this is doubly a massive fuckwit for not realizing he's making himself the perfect scapegoat for some seriously messed up draconian policy that will come from the resultant hysteria. 6 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gimli Posted December 15, 2014 terrorism? or just one stupid nut acting like a massive fuckwit? if it isn't a gov conspiracy then the guy doing this is doubly a massive fuckwit for not realizing he's making himself the perfect scapegoat for some seriously messed up draconian policy that will come from the resultant hysteria. Say hello to more anti-terrorism laws and policies 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
in_spirit Posted December 15, 2014 Yes - i thought i was being paranoid, but the prime masturbator has been pushing his anti terror, and the raids that ended up being total BS, and now media hype about a solo gunman, remembers tasmania??? It worked once for them, and the positioning at martin place, i mean terrorism in a chocshop, when they could have got a bigger target?? Just makes no sense, like i said, i don't want to see anyone hurt and if it is an' order from chaos' gov't scam, i guess they will take him alive or not, either way they have what they came for, yes stronger policy, control.... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
paradox Posted December 15, 2014 i doubt it's an actual government scam per se.. but rather is an inevitable consequence of a very long drawn out sequence of attitudes, prejudices, policies etc that are propagated by government & media & which permeate very persistent memes through the mainstream culture which make many minorities feel completely marginalized & vilified. with such attitudes & governmental & media behaviour it's only a matter of time before the more unstable amonst the population do shit like this & the fact is, whether you like it or not, these occurences are extremely convenient for those in power to propagate more power through the manipulation of fear. for that reason i think the government hold a fair degree of responsibility along with the media & the basic stupidity of the masses. Not that this guy is an government agent or some shit. The manipulation of the masses is certainly a little more sophisticated than that these days i would think. 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Halcyon Daze Posted December 15, 2014 (edited) Right on 'Budget Update Day' too, He really let Joe Hockey off the hook And gave the PM a chance to look good on TV. And Damn if he ain't a refugee too!?!? This dickhead just gave Tony Abbott the biggest Christmas present he could have dreamed of. Edited December 15, 2014 by Halcyon Daze 10 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
-RC- Posted December 15, 2014 Just so long as we are all a bit more afraid of the 'enemy', I'm fine with it. We need a bit more fear in the world these days... 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Alice Posted December 15, 2014 Right on 'Budget Update Day' too, He really let Joe Hockey off the hook Exactly what I was thinking. I wouldn't label this terrorism, just some nutter (with a long history of violence) being a douche. I guess we'll find out what it was all about in the coming days. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
zed240 Posted December 15, 2014 Just so long as we are all a bit more afraid of the 'enemy', I'm fine with it. We need a bit more fear in the world these days... Why do you say that? No we don't, the amount of fear mongering in the world media is already at a bullshit high level. Did I miss a massive dose of sarcasm in your post due to the text based nature of the forum? 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gimli Posted December 15, 2014 Exactly what I was thinking. I wouldn't label this terrorism, just some nutter (with a long history of violence) being a douche. I guess we'll find out what it was all about in the coming days. We'll only be told what the media want us to hear... Why do you say that? No we don't, the amount of fear mongering in the world media is already at a bullshit high level. Did I miss a massive dose of sarcasm in your post due to the text based nature of the forum? I believe you missed the massive dose of sarcasm 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DiscoStu Posted December 16, 2014 December 15, 2014 (Tony Cartalucci - LD) As predicted, the suspect amid the "Sydney Siege," has long been on the radar of Australian law enforcement, as well as a frequent visitor to Australia's court system. Before that, however, he came to Australia as a political refugee, an opponent of what he called the "Iranian regime," and was even interviewed by Australia's ABC network in 2001 as part of an ongoing anti-Iranian propaganda campaign. It has been revealed that long-time agitator, alias "Man Haron Monis," also known as "Manteghi Boroujerdi," was the suspect amid the so-called "Sydney Siege" hostage crisis. Monis/Boroujerdi claims to be a Shia'a religious leader and is often seen in press photos dressed as one. Despite this, he was at the center of a hostage crisis requesting the flag of the "Islamic State" terrorist organization be delivered to him while claiming association with other ISIS "brothers." Neither Islamic nor a state, ISIS is led by US, Israeli, and Saudi-backed Wahabi terrorists, promoting a perversion of Sunni Islam - the bane to both genuine Sunnis and Shia'a worldwide and against which both the nations of Syria and Iran are fighting. Monis/Boroujerdi rose to infamy amid two notable incidents - one being his involvement in the stabbing death and burning of his ex-wife - the other being his controversial campaign of sending hate-letters to the families of dead Australian soldiers killed during the invasion and occupation of Afghanistan. The latter was used extensively to stir up division across the pro and anti-war political divide. The Australian in a September 2013 article titled, "'Cleric' Man Haron Monis punished for offensive letters written to families of dead Diggers," reported that: A SELF-styled Muslim cleric has been sentenced to 300 hours of community service for penning "grossly offensive" letters to families of soldiers killed in Afghanistan. Man Haron Monis, also known as Sheik Haron, was also placed on a two-year good behaviour bond. So too was his co-accused and partner, 34-year-old Amirah Droudis, who pleaded guilty to one count of aiding and abetting him. In December of 2013, the Australian Daily Telegraph would report in an article titled, "'Hate' sheik Man Horan Monis and girlfriend Amirzh Droudis granted bail on murder charges," that: Monis is charged as an accessory before and after the fact to the murder of Noleen Hayson Pal, 30, who was stabbed 18 times and set alight outside a western Sydney unit in April. Monis/Boroujerdi's Origins Story But before Monis/Boroujerdi's recent run-ins with the law and his role as chief "Muslim boogeyman" in Australia, he was "Manteghi Boroujerdi," a "victim" of the "Iranian regime" who was in love with Western society. Australia's ABC in its "Religion Report" dated January 31, 2001, introduced Monis/Boroujerdi as follows: ...while in Sydney we talk to Ayatollah Manteghi Boroujerdi, an Iranian cleric espousing a liberal brand of Islam - dangerously liberal, as his views have led to his wife and two daughters being held hostage in Iran. The interview itself is used as yet another vehicle to carry along Western propaganda long-aimed at Iran. It claims Monis/Boroujerdi's family is in grave danger and that Monis/Boroujerdi himself would be executed should he ever return to Iran. It quotes Monis/Boroujerdi several times including claims he was formally associated with Iranian intelligence: In Iran, mostly I have been involved with the Ministry of Intelligence and Security. And was in contact with the UN regarding security issues in Iran: ...more than four years I have not seen my family, and the Iranian regime doesn't let them come out. In fact I can say they are hostage; as a hostage the Iranian regime wants to make me silent, because I have some secret information about government, and about their terrorist operations in the war. I sent a letter to the Secretary-General of the United Nations and somebody on behalf of Mr Kofi Anan sent the answer, and they want to do something. I have hope and always I pray and ask God to solve my problem. At one point during the interview Monis/Boroujerdi professes his love of Australia, Canada, the US, and UK claiming: ...we can say Australia, Canada, England, USA, so many western countries, they are religious societies. They don't say 'We are religious', but in fact the spirit of religion, we can see the spirit of religion in these societies. And some other countries in the Middle East, in Asia, they say 'We are Islamic' they have a name of Islamic, but in fact they are not religious societies and religious governments. Whenever I walk in the street, whenever I go out in Australia, I feel I am in a real religious society. I don't want to say it is perfect, we don't have a perfect society on the earth, but when we compare, if we compare Australia with Iran and other countries in the Middle East, we can say it is heaven. However, later in 2008, Monis/Boroujerdi's activities drew the attention of real Shia'a religious leaders in Australia who asked Australian security agents to investigate him. In an Australian article titled, "Call to probe mystery Shia cleric," it was reported that: FEDERAL agents have been urged by the nation's senior Shia leader, Kamal Mousselmani, to investigate an Iranian man purporting to be a prominent Islamic cleric. Sheik Mousselmani told The Australian yesterday the mystery cleric - who has been identified as Ayatollah Manteghi Boroujerdi on his website after appearing under the name Sheik Haron - was not a genuine Shia spiritual leader. He said there were no ayatollahs - supreme Shia scholars - in Australia and none of his fellow spiritual leaders knew who Ayatollah Boroujerdi or Sheik Haron was. "We don't know him and we have got nothing to do with him," Sheik Mousselmani said. "The federal police should investigate who he is. It should be their responsibility." But it was the Australian media itself who introduced him publicly as an "Ayatollah" and the Australian government that vetted him and allegedly granted him political asylum. He was allegedly in contact with the UN and was used to stir up anti-Iranian sentiment in Australia. It is then highly suspicious that now both the Australian media and the Australian government appear to have no knowledge of who he is or where he came from. For someone used as part of the West's anti-Iranian propaganda campaign, and who was granted political asylum into Australia, but who is now supposedly unknown to those who invited him in and used him, there is clearly more to the story of Monis/Boroujerdi - a story that may then offer insight into his latest performance. Perhaps most ironic of all is the fact that the "Iranian regime" he was used to demonize apparently did not kill his wife - instead, he himself is suspected of doing so. Whatever the case is, Monis/Boroujerdi is certainly no "loan wolf terrorist." He, at best, is yet another Frankenstein of the establishment run amok after an abortive attempt to cultivate and use him to advance Western foreign and domestic policy. At worse, he is directly involved in an intelligence operation to further inflame division in Australian society and promote the long stalled war in Syria aimed at regime change there, before heading to Iran - the scorn of Monis/Boroujerdi. An omnipresent all-invasive surveillance state that is constantly "blindsided" by terror attacks carried out by criminals and characters possessing extensive criminal records and who are well-acquainted with that state's law enforcement, media, and even government, is testament to the fact that such surveillance hasn't been and never was intended to serve the public's best interests nor to keep them safe - but rather another system of control and manipulation to allow true dangers to human civilization to endure with impunity. http://www.infowars.com/who-created-cartoon-character-man-haron-monis-behind-sydney-siege-circus/ 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DiscoStu Posted December 16, 2014 finally, what about the four bombs which are apparently around Sydney right now? 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
-RC- Posted December 16, 2014 Why do you say that? No we don't, the amount of fear mongering in the world media is already at a bullshit high level. Did I miss a massive dose of sarcasm in your post due to the text based nature of the forum? 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
in_spirit Posted December 16, 2014 The manipulation of the masses is certainly a little more sophisticated than that these days i would think.You would think hey? But that was why i mentioned Tasmania, has anyone heard the bryant phone call to the police, he tells them that there man is gonna shoot one of his own, and then gunshots in the background??????? And yes itacheived something the gov't wanted.. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DiscoStu Posted December 16, 2014 i certainly think the current federal government is far too incompetent for that sort of nefariousness, they can barely wipe their own arse without getting shit on their faces 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cactuscarl Posted December 16, 2014 Nothing to do with terrorist it was one nutter with a gun.... I was actually suprized tho only a few stations reported it as a terrorist attack. I was also pleasantly surprised they didn't go on and on about his ethnicity.... I actually figured he must be caucasian for a while since they didn't mention it for hours. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
whitewind Posted December 16, 2014 A lone nutter with a gun, causing chaos, government freaking out, media on 24hour rolling news, population losing the plot, forgetting the ongoing injustice of their own government. I think it's important to see that this was a lone nutter, he may have been Islamic, but I've seen Christian pastors in America calling for the death of homosexuals in recent days. It seems that these religious groups are quick to reject these nutters when it suits them, but are happy to fill their flocks with all and sundry spouting hate and anti-science anti-reason rhetoric. Religious organisations should be careful with the policies they adhere to, lone nutters like this find a place to nurse their hatred and let it ferment. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DiscoStu Posted December 16, 2014 the government and tabloid media have been hyping the threat of islamic state since the start of the year, culminating in the hysterics of a few months ago, then when it actually happens they all turn around and say "no no, just a lone nut nothing to do with terrorism" why? this is the exact thing they've been using as a direct threat to the australian homeland for months, years and now they don't even acknowledge it Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DiscoStu Posted December 16, 2014 well thy waited a tasteful 24hrs before linking this to the necessity of mandatory data retention, i suppose that's considered an appropriate window 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
watertrade Posted December 16, 2014 (edited) If I may play devils advocate. I don't think in any way this is a conspiracy. If we can agree that this guy was just a lone crazy man, he was out in the community enjoying the same freedom and protection by the law we all do. given his history, the authorities would be gagging to put him away but there was most likely not enough evidence to charge him under the current laws. And/or the authorities didn't have the ability to gather the information. Do the authorities have enough power to gather the evidence they need? Or are the laws currently too strict & Impeding on our rights? I know laws can be used for proposes other than what they were created for. I don't know the answer Edited December 16, 2014 by watertrade 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DiscoStu Posted December 16, 2014 (edited) Do the authorities have enough power to gather the evidence they need? more than enough. preservation orders allow authorities to request all data of a user (or even an an entire isp), telstra routinely hands over "metadata" to afp if they ask for it, hell even the rspca can access it. point is they can get it if they want it, they were either too lazy, didn't care or too incompetent to act in this case (this guy has been on the radar for years, he was boasting of supporting isis publicly a month ago). the better question is, if they can't stop a single high profile criminal who publicly boasts of joining a proscribed terrorist organisation with laws to retain/access metadata currently, then how will exponentially expanding the data set to every single australian for two years (or more as they are now saying they want) help them stop the same people? (hint: it's not "everyday australians" who are holding cafe's hostage). make no mistake, metadata retention is a costly and inneffective method of crime prevention (which is why the EU abandoned it earlier in the year), but quite an effective method for rights holders to pursue copyright infringement (wich the afp chief commissioner earlier said was a direct incentive for the proposed legislation). don't believe a word these liars tell you Edited December 16, 2014 by DiscoStu 4 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DiscoStu Posted December 16, 2014 (edited) clicked a wrong button Edited December 16, 2014 by DiscoStu Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gimli Posted December 17, 2014 (edited) well thy waited a tasteful 24hrs before linking this to the necessity of mandatory data retention, i suppose that's considered an appropriate window Data retention may have helped siege? Abbott is the biggest fuckwit that's ran this country, that and being in Murdochs pocket... Sticking that cunt in jail/remand him for his shit actions would have been good (that of murdering his ex-wife) and his sexual conduct charges. Edited December 17, 2014 by Gimli Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
watertrade Posted December 17, 2014 point is they can get it if they want it, they were either too lazy, didn't care or too incompetent to act in this case (this guy has been on the radar for years, he was boasting of supporting isis publicly a month ago). the better question is, if they can't stop a single high profile criminal who publicly boasts of joining a proscribed terrorist organisation with laws to retain/access metadata currently... My question was meant to include all potential avenues of investigation. Not just Internet stuff. What if he didn't use a computer? It's my understanding that he had no connection to Isis anyway. when he was investigated for his connections and it was found that even Isis wouldn't have him this would have discredited his story even more. The authorities operate in a very risk averse environment controlled by legal advice. If they were able, I'm sure they would have searched his property and every friend and family member for miles around! But he was out on bail for the accessory to murder case,which would have been investigated a long time ago. The authorities can't harass him without any new evidence. He may have picked up the gun and had the idea the day before he entered the cafe. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
spooge Posted December 17, 2014 Maybe he was on his way somewhere else and the gun was spotted in his bag in the coffee shop while he was ducking in for a brew. Maybe not.......... Either way imo he was never gonna make it out alive no matter what happened. I feel for the hostages and the dead people and their families. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
