Are the Current Penalties for " Rock Spiders " Adequate ?

[Heretic]

Greetings ...

I am deeply apologetic for raising such a distasteful subject , but this is the only forum of which I am a member that might permit such discussion . Nevertheless , mods please remove it should it be beyond the scope of Corroboree .

Australia is quickly getting a reputation for being a dangerous place - especially so for women and children ; victims of rapists and paedophiles who murder them afterwards to [ hopefully ] prevent later identification .

Possibly the actual statistics for such crime might suggest that Australia is no worse than other countries , but even if this is so , any such crime at all is unacceptable .

Furthermore , many of these appalling heinous crimes are committed by repeat offenders on parole or released from prison , having served sentences for similar attacks on vulnerable people .

[ as I understand , Daniel Morcombe , Jill Meagre , and others might still be alive if the creeps involved had served their full sentences , originally imposed for their earlier crimes . If this is indeed so , surely the State must be accountable ? ]

It seems that the current penalties being imposed for such crimes are of no deterrent value at all , for they continue to occur with monotonous regularity .

And if / when these monsters are caught and convicted they are housed in protective custody , isolated from the general prison populations . This , of course , is no deterrent whatsoever because they know they will be protected from other prisoners , well fed , and enjoy the use of computers , TV , gymnasium , etc , while they comfortably serve out their sentences - and probably be released early if of good behaviour . Perhaps if these creeps are treated the same as any other mainstream prisoner , their sentences may have more deterrent value ?

Both myself and my brother are very lucky to be alive today , having been grabbed as children by a notorious local paedophile and dragged into nearby secluded swampy bushland . His mistake , and our good fortune is because he had 2 freaking-out kids on his hands , and was unable to control both of us at once . We bolted in different directions at the first opportunity , despite a savage beating and threats of much worse . I have no doubt that had there only been one of us , we would have been murdered to prevent identifying the creep .

This was long ago [ 1965 ] , and the Victorian police did not pursue prosecution because of lack of evidence [ multiple facial bruising ?? ] and " unreliable witnesses " [ kids ] ; and we suspect , influential relative ... However , surprise-surprise , he was later convicted and jailed more than once for the same things ... [ which no doubt should have not occurred , had he been previously prosecuted ].

These appalling disgusting crimes should not be occurring in any society , esp in an advanced culture such as Australia .

That many of these crimes are repeat offences is an indictment on the State for negligence , and failure to protect the most vulnerable of citizens - women and children .

Personally , I believe that for such offences the punishments ought reflect the gravity of these crimes . In my opinion such creeps have forfeited the right to be members of a civilized society ; and where there is the slightest chance of sex-offender committing a similar type crime the State has a responsibility to protect citizens and prevent re-offending . Maybe , upon completion of their sentences , such prisoners could be made to live in isolated communities away from society .

After all , who wants a convicted sex-offender or killer living nearby ?? I certainly do not ...

Finally , where the murder of a victim in such or similar cases has occurred , the courts ought to be imposing sentences that adequately reflect the gravity of such crimes ... or is someone's life really only worth 12-15 or so years , as is suggested by current " life " prison terms ?

[incognito]

Flay em alive as far as I'm concerned.

[Foo]

While i agree that sentencing is currently too lite, esp for repeat offenders, i am dreading the flood of "Cut there fucking faces off" too come.

[waterboy 2.0]

CURRENT "PENALTIES" ARE NOT ADEQUATE IMO.....

There are some real sicko fucks that walk amongst us.

I cannot type here what I think should happen to them.

[bullit]

bring em to me . the court system is fucked . i will deal with all of them... 4 REAL them kunts need a

[Heretic]

While i agree that sentencing is currently too lite, esp for repeat offenders, i am dreading the flood of "Cut there fucking faces off" too come.

I would prefer a serious sensible discussion that reflects not only opinions , but suggests ways our society might better deal with very real problem - whereby it might be practical use to those in a position to do something positive . eg , lawyers , MPs , etc .

At present the State are failing miserably to protect the most vulnerable among us ...

I personally believe that some of these people have forfeited the right to live among us . Perhaps , after release from prison they could be housed in a specific village of their own kind , strictly monitored , recieve treatment , etc , but most importantly - live in such a manner where they are unable to do it again . Putting them back into society is a threat to their neighbours as well as themselves , as was demonstrated when Dennis Ferguson was no longer legally able to be incarcerated . [ he went on to doing some very sus charity work , if memory serves ...]

Edited April 11, 2014 by Heretic

[watertrade]

I don't have any answers to this problem but I can add a few things I think are true.

Penalties of imprisonment of any length do not work as a deterrent to this kind of crime.

The fact that people released can reoffend doesn't mean all do, but obviously Imprisonment doesn't rehabilitate.

It is equally important that prisoners be protected from other inmates. Pedophilles and kid killers may 'get what they deserve' but we can't allow inmates to dole out their own justice.

Ultimately the 'rest of us' have to be protected from criminals.

Maybe the only answer is to lock them away for their real life.

[watertrade]

The most vulnerable people in any society are always the first and most victimised by interpersonal crime.

Children, women, the elderly, the poor, the disabled, the uneducated, the underprivileged, Minorities... The list goes on. When there is a disparity, there is an opertunity to take advantage.

[El Presidente Hillbillios]

I wonder if there are studies into wether the behavior is learned or genetic?

[watertrade]

I wonder if there are studies into wether the behavior is learned or genetic?

i'm pretty sure (but can't quote sources) that people who committ these crimes are considered mentally ill. I.e. they are unable to control themselves. And that its a little of both nature and nurture - Not an excuse for the behaviour. But it's much more complex than bad/evil people.

[naja naja]

In some way, for certain crimes, I like in when in certain countries you see video footage of the local community taking out their own form of justice, you will see police amongst them, not trying to stop them from beating them, but infact joining in. I don't nessisarily condone this, but if you knew that the whole town was going to f u up for beating up that old lady or stealing her purse, let alone dreaded rape and murder, I think there would be far less crimes in general.

EDIT, Although I think this would be used wrongly and unjustly at times. It would be dangerous.

Edited April 11, 2014 by naja naja

[watertrade]

In some way, for certain crimes, I like in when in certain countries you see video footage of the local community taking out their own form of justice, you will see police amongst them, not trying to stop them from beating them, but infact joining in. I don't nessisarily condone this, but if you knew that the whole town was going to f u up for beating up that old lady or stealing her purse, let alone dreaded rape and murder, I think there would be far less crimes in general.

EDIT, Although I think this would be used wrongly and unjustly at times. It would be dangerous.

I agree, after all the law is the community, it may not be a well functioning one but that's what it tries to be. I have heard some good stories recently of communities self regulating crime without the help of traditional law enforcement. Mainly in very close, socially rich, densely intertwined communities of people. Small villages etc.

[watertrade]

An interesting read here on Aboriginal customary law and punishment.

http://www.alrc.gov.au/publications/21.%20Aboriginal%20Customary%20Laws%20and%20Sentencing/aboriginal-customary-laws-and-notion-puni

Edited April 11, 2014 by watertrade

[Anodyne]

We were discussing Stranger in a Strange Land in another thread, so I'll just quote:

"That fits," Jubal agreed. "Mike is gentle, always. It would hurt him to have anybody locked up. I agree."

Ben shook his head. "Mike isn't gentle, Jubal. Killing a man wouldn't worry him. But he's the ultimate anarchist - locking a man up is a wrongness. Freedom of self-and utter personal responsibility for self. Thou art God."

"Wherein lies the conflict, sir? Killing a man might be necessary. But confining him is an offense against his integrity - and your own."

It's probably just that I'm a filthy anarchist too, but a "justice system" which involves locking people up strikes me as often-counterproductive and hypocritical. How many people do you know who were improved by their time in gaol, who came out better people, better parents? If people are sick, we should treat them, if they're poor, we should help them, and if they're doing nothing wrong, then we shouldn't lock them up! - that solves 99% of our criminal problems . Then, if we as a society, truly believe that someone is not fit to be part of it, why do we choose to keep them around for the rest of their lives? Why don't we just kill them? Or try banishment, if we're squeamish? The main reasons as far as I can make out are one, that we don't want to feel responsible, which is just cowardice, and two, that our justice system is far too flawed to allow capital punishment. Which is a good argument against re-introducing the death penalty, but a poor endorsement of our current system.

[Heretic]

I don't believe people should be locked away for life UNLESS they are re-offenders , or likely to do so .

Ferguson was hounded out of one town after another - clearly an unworkable situation . Nobody wants sex offenders in their community if there is the slightest chance they will do it again .

The states of Qld , Vic , and the NT were negligent and failed in their duty of care to protect Daniel Morcombe , Jill Meagre , and many others .

Any risk of re-offending is unacceptable , imo .

But once their sentences are served , these people have to live somewhere and in a degree of strictly controlled freedom . But where ? This is a problem - who wants them nearby ?

Perhaps long -term strict supervision in isolated areas , until they can be trusted again ? Simply letting them out after time served is not only irresponsible , but is clearly not working .

[gwalchgwyn]

The problem as I see it - of which I am sure to be in the minority - is that Dragon Slayer (Indo-European/Abramic) Cultures require the existence of demons from their own creation story for the specific purpose of defeating them. As long as the story persists, they will continue to create from without and within their own populations characters that fit this demon profile. In slaying the dragon they perceive that they are securing a healthy sane and prosperous community for themselves. The Dragon, which is symbolically identical to the Snake and the Giant, refers to anything and anyone who does not conform to the fantasy story. What they do not understand is that they need these demons - and more importantly - they create these demons out of anyone in their midst who might fit their terribly infantile psychotic paranoid worldview in which that old Tautology is well in place: me good, not me bad. These horrible actions must be the result of not just years, but generations, of abusive ostracizing of the Other until it reaches in said individuals these horrible results. Consider that it is that cultural story that made them, and then kills them, hence the fantasy continues. This is similar to the violence taboo that often is derived from the very source of the violence: that is, a systematic use of non-physical violence, such as mental, emotional, social, economic, etc, that builds up to the point that it is then manifest in these horrible actions in people who would otherwise not be inclined in that way. When we seriously analyze the examples of school violence, we see in the perpetrator a sort of receptor of years of abuse that then explodes; look at them: they would not naturally be like that; they were bullied, their home or societal situation was not conducive to a decent livity; it isn't something in their genes, a bad seed, etc; it is that a system of abuse created them; the very Prohibitor is the Perpetrator, not the actual person who did the crime - he or she is just a pawn in the drama. It is a sort nightmarish sacrificial ritual in which we all have to play a role in a phony drama with real consequences that perpetuates a cultural story of domination. For the persistence of the view that there is something within that person (Original Sin, anyone?) that is the cause gives the real perpetrator, which is the dominant cultural story, license to distance themselves from those people and more importantly, from their own involvement in the creation - out of a real human - of a bizarre cultural persona that would not otherwise exist. This is the precise behavior of the indignant conquerors in recent history toward their victims, despite the current habit of conquerors to tokenize the descendants of the conquored. If we look at the population of people who have with the best evidence committed the most heinous of crimes and who are in prisons for their crimes, we see a cultural pattern - not in all cases, but in most - of people who in some way have been since birth systematically shut out of the rewards of the dominant group. Is it skin color? accent? a habit of looking at evidence? There seems to be little that the dominant group won't demonize in some way to fill their story's unquenchable hunger for victims. Consider too that in our site's subject of interest, that their has been a long history in which what we today call herbalists and scientists who were likewise held with suspicion and at times subject to the most horrible treatment. There have been times in the past of our ancestors, when people just like each and every one of us, would have been viewed suspiciously and treated as such. There comes a time, which I call the Fuck It Point, when people who are socially abused explode and actually manifest the very behavior that their abusers require of them. The manner of the Dragon Slayer complex is comparable to the rapist, breathing down his victim's neck: tell me you like it; it then acts all astonished and indignant at the demon-creature that it created. Notably there is not much literature in Dragon Slayer Cultural Complex that looks critically at this very important social issue in which lives are pawed to death (aside from original sources, which are complicit). For critical discussions, one would do well to look at Pendell's Paganum chapter. Another interest source on Giants in Western 'civilization' is JJ Cohen's book on Giants, which discusses at length the need for Western Society to create and then kill it's demons. We are very much in the dark ages of understanding.

Edited April 11, 2014 by gwalchgwyn

[Heretic]

I wonder if there are studies into wether the behavior is learned or genetic?

I suspect it is learned - back in the 1980s many psychologists believed so ...

[shortly]

The fact is that it is civilized society that creates these kinds of monsters. And far far worse.

As a society ​Its both our own appallingly poor performance as stewards towards ourselves, our kin & our surrounds that leads to these sorts of things as well as what are quite rapidly societal norms.

Now if a 20 something bloke dates a 15 year old chick he is a pedo, but look back only a few generations & in many places an unmarried 14 year old girl was considered to be an "old maid"

​Not that i an condoning these behaviors, but by stigmatizing & criminalizing them all we do is push them out of sight so the anyone with these inclinations tends to hide them rather than seeking the help that we should all be giving freely .

I believe these sorts of things are so rarely seen in "primitive cultures" because the social support that are ALWAYS freely available to every member of group regardless of wealth or social standing.

Trying to quantify if pedophilia is learned or genetic is i think is extremely dangerous ground indeed.

If it is learned then yes we should be striving to avoid i ever being taught to anyone, however if it has any genetic component chances are that it is only a predisposition. Should we then euthanize anyone with the trait? Testing of every foetus & forced abortions for any that test positive?

​Our love of consistency & uniformity, particularly through what are really arbitrary laws that is likely to lead us directly into extinction.

If locking people up or even strict supervision in isolated areas is your solution then be prepared to pay the price yourself, after all someone has to work the overtime to pay the extra tax to keep all these people incarcerated.

Look at the USA where prison budgets are draining vast amounts of $'s away from society in general.

Would it not be better to look after every one from cradle to grave so we can keep the prisons for the truly evil like bankers & politicians.

[Sallubrious]

I used to be a staunch supporter of the death penalty for these types of crimes, until I saw a doco about what happened in a few US states where the death penalty was introduced for convicted peadophiles.

The murder rates for children skyrocketed, it seems the average peadophile is a true coward in every sense of the word and will turn into a killer if they think their own freedom could be jeapardised. So legislation designed to protect kids resulted in many kids being murdered.

I really don't know what could be done to make the punishment fit the crime without putting victims in more danger.

That prick that killed Morcombe is planning to appeal his sentence, which to me seems like nothing less than contempt of court. After the way he lied to conceal his heinous acts and never showed any remorse, wanting a reduced sentence is the ultimate act of contempt. I believe he should have his sentence re-written to include something to the effect of "For the term of his natural life"

[Justin Credible]

We so need harder penalties for these folks, but more so some type of support system. We had Dennis Ferguson admit that he would reoffend if released, yet we released him....so who's the monster fergo or the system.

As sick of a man Fergo was he admitted to his problems and asked for help, we failed him and the lives he destroyed imo.

[OPP]

A very good friend of mine was the victim of sexual abuse many years ago and the impact on her life still remains.

Noone deserves to have that happen to them.

The shame of it is that most of this type of abuse happens in the home by someone well known to the family.

Jail is too good for some people.

[paradox]

mandatory castration. i don't say that just in a reactive way like Foo was referring to, i think it would probably actually work, these people cannot control their twisted sexual desires, castration should take care of that.

has anyone seen the louis theroux doco about pedophiles? in that there is pedo's that are undergoing treatment, some of them freely admit that their own desires are utterly disgusting & they hate that they have them, but they can't help but have them so they have opted for voluntary castration. as far as i remember that solution completely changed one guys life as he is no longer haunted by his utterly immoral desires anymore.

when i was twelve i was in an under thirteens soccer team, some of my little bit older mates were in under fifteens, their coach constantly told me what a really good player i was & he organized for me to jump up a few year levels so i could play in his team.. luckily my mates & i didn't go to the end of season sleepover party as his house, unfortunately a couple of other kids weren't so lucky, he drugged them.. they were completely helpless. he obviously got locked up but not sure where he is now..

another friend of mine, was in my class at high school, he's the cousin of one of my life long best friends. he has been at the centre of a huge scandal in the local church of that area. for many decades the local police protected the priest that repeatedly raped him as a child until recently one cop couldn't deal with what he was witnessing & blew the whistle

[Heretic]

I think it is occurring more tan is realized ,with much going unreported .

I guess there is no easy answer .

Even though my brother and I were " fortunate " , every news report drags up memories , even almost 50 years later .

At the time of posting a 3 yo girl had vanished from her bedroom in a nearby town , and I felt terrible for her and the family - so pleased she was found unharmed ; was not expecting that .

I wonder if it occurs in tribal societies , or is more prevalent in industrial societies ?

I went to a church-run school for many years . There were several mysterious incidents and sackings , and the school had to sell off land to pay compensation claims , according to my Ma who worked there . She says " damage control " rather than reporting to police was a school policy of the time ...

[watertrade]

At the time of posting a 3 yo girl had vanished from her bedroom in a nearby town , and I felt terrible for her and the family - so pleased she was found unharmed ; was not expecting that .

I was thinking of this thread at the same time. It sent a shiver down my spine and paranoia through my mind. thinking... maybe we (my family) are not safe and maybe I need to do something about it. ?

I suspect child abuse is actually going down due to a general consensus that it is abhorrent behaviour and the support for the victims 'coming out' . But I also suspect the fear and anxiety of it is going up due to increased media coverage ( traditional and new media such as facebook, twitter etc.)