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mutant

Do you believe in the signs of the zodiac, etc

Degree of belief in zodiac stuff in general  

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i think you have hit the proverbial nail on the proverbial head arch :)

ive always found it curious, that the most intelligent, self assured people ive met throughout my life have also been the most stoopid and ignorant.

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Yes, all horseshit.

 

He he, well at least you're not a hypocrite.

I'm glad I don't perceive the world in such a black and white manner, but to each their own.

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I believe in neither astrology or horoscopes, so voted no.

To those who do believe in them though, you've probably read enough posts by me now to have at least a fair idea of the sort of person I am, in which case, you should be able to stick me into one of those zodiac categories based on my personality traits. So, what am I?

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Capricorn?

(wild guess)

vvv lol Only because most disbelievers in general (and I'm not necessarily calling you a disbeliever; obviously beliefs covers a huge area) I find to be Capricorn, Geminis, Leos. They seem to be a lot more grounded in general. But that said, I don't really know a lot of Caps, Leos, and Aries. My brother's a Gemini as is my grandmother, and they both fit the bill perfectly. I don't think you're gemini though, you don't seem as hugely sociable as I've noticed them being.

Still a wild guess though, without knowing you that well lol

Edited by FancyPants

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Actually, let me change that question if you will. Which sign and why? :P

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Actually, let me change that question if you will. Which sign and why? :P

 

Come on, tell us! :D

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:lol:

I want to see how effective categorisation based on personality traits with zodiac signs is. If several people take a guess and get it wrong, then what use is it having zodiac signs which try to fit people into personality based categories?

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:lol:

I want to see how effective categorisation based on personality traits with zodiac signs is. If several people take a guess and get it wrong, then what use is it having zodiac signs which try to fit people into personality based categories?

 

I don't think that the zodiac can be used to categorically delineate personality, even in terms of traditional uses. If you consider it, astrology has indicated that no two people are the same and no two people have the same astrological signs. The use of the 12 signs alone is too incomplete to count as astrologically significant.

I agree that the signs cannot be used to fit people into personality based categories, but I don't think serious advocates of astrology are claiming that. I think the core belief of astrology is that events are not random, that there is an orderly aspect to the procession of events, which is exemplified by the celestial phenomena and personified in humanity. It is like saying that if you know the variables you can predict outcomes.

Some people say that the universe is alive, that the earth is alive, these beliefs are themselves astrological beliefs. As far as the signs of the zodiac it is a means of correlating the individuality of a person with the commonalities of people in general. There does exist an industry of cold reading and vague telling of general truths as a means of convincing people of the accuracy of horoscope readings, however many advocates of astrology do not advocate horoscopes and predictions.

Is there really anything that occurs that cannot be expected in terms of variables?

Let me ask you, is there any truth to the concept that animal behavior is affected by lunar cycle?

Is that not an astrological belief?

to say that animals are affected by the activity of the earth is also astrological in nature, for the earth is itself a heavenly body

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^^^^^^

excellent post arch

guessing the sign is difficult and you have to talk in person and know the person.

this topic [zodiac signs] is getting to being annoying for me [personal reasons, I am noticing myself taking these shit more serious than I am actually interested into]

passivelyly perceiving by fitering with belief annoys me.

Actively - consciously perceiving and searching, dismissing data at will, now that's what I am talking about

Edited by mutant

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Jono you are SUCH the Sagg :wink:...reminiscent,takes things to heart....likes to shelve.

Last bit's not true LOL

LOVES IT!!

Hmm Tripsis.....instinct says Scorpio.....second thoughts confuse me into maybe Virgo?

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I voted no and im apparently a virgo but...

in the chinese zodiac i was born on the day, hour and year of the snake which is something i've had a very close affinity to all my life even before my sign was read.My chinese sign was read by a very old man(friends father)who reminds you of egg from big trouble in little china and he could tell things that made you sit up and listen sometimes even if i was not there at the time, i could go over and recount something that had happened during the week and my friend would say yeah dad said that happened,weird.

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Never really taken much notice, i mean it's kind of like psychic readings. I'm a Pisces btw

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yet in this thread, Bluntmuffin declared astrology "FAKE", in capital letters no less. I'm really curious as to why people are so adamant about this topic.

Just noticed this now.

If I acted in a movie, and appeared to be shot, with blood splatting all over the place - is that fake? In ways, yes. The wound is fake, what happened is not.

So things can be fake (seeming to be one thing), while existing as another. So astrology can be fake (seeming to be one thing), existing as another. Can fake nails exist? etc.

But that's beside the point. Here is what else I said (conveniently ignored):

Of course 'whatever the f is out there at the moment of your conception and/or birth' play a factor in who you become. But it's not of course that they are a linear, cyclical relationship, such that being born one second either side of a "zodiac" automatically changes the baby into being "conservative, concrete" from being "challenging, impulsive".

Lastly, and most importantly - many people here are confusing possibility with probability! Just because something is possible, does not at all make it probable. I believe in the possibility of astrology just as strongly as I believe in the possibility of grass being green. But the probability...

Not all possibilities are worth your time in this lifetime. If they were all equally valid - and you gave equal attention to each... you would not have time to take a step before ending in your grave.

P.s. - guess my sign if you think people are that predictable. I'll then admit that you can characterize people somewhat.

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But that's beside the point. Here is what else I said (conveniently ignored):

 

Mate, I didn't conveniently ignore anything you said. I simply didn't quote your three thousand other words "proving" that astrology is a load of crap.

I quoted you because you were one of the most vocal in this thread about how impossible it must be for Astrology to have any significance on person's personality and because you were probably (along with GreenCaveFloat) the most dogmatic in your approach. The other reason I singled you out is because in other threads you have acted more as an agnostic than a denier and I wanted to highlight the discrepancy between your take on two equally unknowable topics.

Lastly, and most importantly - many people here are confusing possibility with probability! Just because something is possible, does not at all make it probable. I believe in the possibility of astrology just as strongly as I believe in the possibility of grass being green. But the probability...

Not all possibilities are worth your time in this lifetime. If they were all equally valid - and you gave equal attention to each... you would not have time to take a step before ending in your grave.

 

You're right. It's possible I shouldn't have bothered replying to this post.... but i did.

For the record, and you'd already know this if you've read my other posts in this thread, I view Astrology as only possibly valid. The fact of the matter is we don't know shit. We don't fully understand the physical nature of the world around us... we don't really even know for sure that the world around us exists in a physical sense.

You've made a good point above about not having time to give equal attention to all possibilities. There are almost certainly things you do with your life and mind that I'd consider an utter waste of time, as you would consider aspects of mine. Deal with it. People are individuals and have the right to think about whatever interests them. Every post of your in this thread had a real thought police vibe to it.

You taking the effort to convince people that your belief is the right one is no different from a fundamentalist christian trying to force their beliefs. Ew.

P.s. - guess my sign if you think people are that predictable. I'll then admit that you can characterize people somewhat.

 

Read my post #8 and have a guess as to why I wouldn't bother.

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Virgo

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I quoted you because you were one of the most vocal in this thread about how impossible it must be for Astrology to have any significance on person's personality and because you were probably (along with GreenCaveFloat) the most dogmatic in your approach.

Here is what I said:

I believe in the possibility of astrology just as strongly as I believe in the possibility of grass being green. But the probability..

Did nobody teach you to read before you write?

And the fact of the matter is, we do know shit. There's a reason you don't usually see large objects appear out of air, as quick as a blink. There's a reason that the moon doesn't disappear off into the distance of the night sky within the hour. There's a reason that light doesn't travel at a far-slower speed in near-space.

So I think you'll agree that probability can be used successfully to determine that the moon will orbit in roughly the same manner as it usually does, most of the time. That light will travel at the same approximate speed in near-space (i.e. the solar system).

So why does probability not apply to astrology? I have explained that statistical analysis basically says that any effect (if any) is negligible.

There are almost certainly things you do with your life and mind that I'd consider an utter waste of time, as you would consider aspects of mine. Deal with it.

You have completely misinterpreted what I wrote (or ignored it?). I said nothing in that vein.

Virgo

Nope. :P

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Did nobody teach you to read before you write?

 

Jeez, ok time for semantics. First of all, let's discuss chronology. I first quoted you in post #49 pinpointing your comment "Astrology is FAKE". In Post #70, I expanded on the reasons for quoting you in post #49. As such, all comments from you about how I've misinterpreted you should reference your comments only up to post #48. To quote yourself from what you said in post #69 and to then imply that I haven't read what you've written before expanding on my comment from post #48 seems a little out of whack, wouldn't you say? For the record, I've read every word of every post you've made in this thread. Unless you have an inability to express in words what you actually are trying to say, all posts before post #48 are clearly an attempt on your part to prove that astrology is a load of shit, end of story.

The one exception to that is in post #26 where you say

Of course 'whatever the f is out there at the moment of your conception and/or birth' play a factor in who you become. But it's not of course that they are a linear, cyclical relationship, such that being born one second either side of a "zodiac" automatically changes the baby into being "conservative, concrete" from being "challenging, impulsive".

 

Had you taken the time to try to understand what Astrologers look at in a natal chart, you'll realise that that comment doesn't actually bear a resemblance to what Astrologers believe.

Anyway, semantics aside, and getting back to the topic at hand:

And the fact of the matter is, we do know shit. There's a reason you don't usually see large objects appear out of air, as quick as a blink. There's a reason that the moon doesn't disappear off into the distance of the night sky within the hour. There's a reason that light doesn't travel at a far-slower speed in near-space.

 

If you can prove to me that I actually exist as anything other than a figment of you imagination, then I'll pay your above comment. Is it possible that you are actually in a submersive simulation and that all you perceive as the physical world is fake? Is it probable? I don't know the answer to that and I'll wager anything that you can't be certain of the answer to that question either. You may believe it whole heartedly, but that would still be simply belief.

If we assume that the physical world does exist as it appears, then your points are valid. But that's based on an assumption and we all know what worth assumptions have.

So I think you'll agree that probability can be used successfully to determine that the moon will orbit in roughly the same manner as it usually does, most of the time. That light will travel at the same approximate speed in near-space (i.e. the solar system).

So why does probability not apply to astrology? I have explained that statistical analysis basically says that any effect (if any) is negligible.

 

Again, this is all working on the assumption that the physical world exists outside our minds. I agree that the probability is that it does, but it is not something that can be proven.

God;

Afterlife;

Alternate universes;

Unified theory of everything;

Alien life forms;

Matter outside of our perception;

Machine Elves;

Psychedelic realities;

Astrology.

There's an incomplete list of things that we don't have answers for (at least yet). If you do have the answers to all those things, and the concrete evidence to back them up, then by all means share them with the world. If you are uncertain about any of the other points in the list, how can you be so certain that astrology is bunk? I acknowledge that you have said:

I believe in the possibility of astrology just as strongly as I believe in the possibility of grass being green. But the probability...

 

but assuming, as we did earlier, that the physical world exists outside our mind then grass IS green (unless it's the middle of summer or you have an exotic variety). That's not a possibility, it's a fact (based on our initial assumption). The validity of Astrology is a possibility (regardless of assumption). The probability is something we cant calculate as we don't have a great enough understanding of what our perceptions are really telling us.

You have completely misinterpreted what I wrote (or ignored it?). I said nothing in that vein.

 

Not all possibilities are worth your time in this lifetime. If they were all equally valid - and you gave equal attention to each... you would not have time to take a step before ending in your grave.

 

If i misinterpreted what you said in the quote above, please rephrase it to give me the opportunity to understand what you're actually saying. The way I did interpret it was that you are saying Astrology (with it's low probability of being valid in your opinion) is not worth peoples' time pursuing. My response was that it is up to the individual to determine what is worth pursuing. You choose to believe that Astrology is a waste of time. Not everybody does. You should respect that. It's fine for you to voice your opinions.... but at the end of the day, that's all they are: opinions.

I didn't intend to enter into a shit fight over this and apologies if you feel I singled you out unfairly. I've stated my reasons for why I chose to quote your comment... no personal qualms with you... just qualms with how you've presented in this thread.

Peace.

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Kee>>>>

pisces are like the 'natural born victims' of the universe. they are supposed to be so well meaning and kind that very often fail to support their own self esteem.

are you like that? do people often take advantage of you? do you let people do it and pretend all is fine?

Moses>>>>

virgos, on the other hand, are supposed to be the ultimate ball breakers of them all. They are supposed to want to master every kraft they cope with, they're perfectionists and capricious.

are you like that? do you often find yourself wanting to have things your way, even if the decision affects a bunch of people and even trying to convince them?

==

I know I used sterotypes on 2 of the boldest zodiac signs/

and also I am aware that with proper rhetorics, everyone would prove somewhat sensitive/victim , as pisces is supposed to be, or capricious like virgos.

but no

pisces are reliably like that, in a big degree

and virgos are reliably capricious is a wide range of subjects...

well ... most of the times...

what do you think?

btw I consider virgos or pisces one of the most characteristic types of character/zodiacs

PS: Bluntmuffin, tell your zodiac

the fact that we do know shit and that we can explain the human behaviour 100% with psychology and cause-effect means, is irrelevant IN MY TAKE ON THE SUBJECT.

I mean, I dont want to believe in the zodiacs, it just happens I noticed strange coincidences. I try to prove them stupid, but I cannot any more. So there might just be an unlike , SECOND way of explaining behaviour.

If all this is true, however, lots of philosophical and other shits are just blown away ... very interesting indeed!!!

Edited by mutant

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raba

If you can prove to me that I actually exist as anything other than a figment of you imagination

hey raba, no offence,

but that was a sophism, of no value IMO as an arguement.

The 'believers' often bring that on in the 'other' conversation.

Reality is real. IMO what we have here is a real observation. One should take a minute or more and notice. Most people wont, so they wont see it. Kind of sounds like what they believers tell me about 'the other' and the spirits. Thing is I admit I don't need that, it doesn't suit me. They wont but they will both [scientifists and beleivers] say that they dont see or understand. Truth is they don

t [try to see that is]

You have to want to see, so as to see. If you're determined there's nothing, you wont see it. I cannot tell you 'eat 10 grams of psilos' to see it. you have to do your personal research with PERSONS YOU PERSONALLY KNOW, to see if the characteristics of the zodiacs fit. And you have to be open minded enough and psychologically skilled enough to see them objectively!

I dont need spirits in my life. I might see them if I eat some 20 grams of frozen fresh woodlovers, but I don't need to, I sense it's more about madness than anything real.

i dont need zodiacs in my life. But I notice the statistics without having to consume something. If they prove more real than I thought, its a pretty damn interesting philosophical [...] phenonomenon, but it wont change my life, it's not that important, finding ways to explain, especially if you already have multiple tools to explain stuff.

As a genuine provocateur [in the good sense] and a true explorer, I find the zodiacs especially interesting in this part of my time.

And yeah, I have lots of free time. I am virtually work free nowdays

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hey raba, no offence,

but that was a sophism, of no value IMO as an arguement.

 

None taken, although I actually disagree that my comment was a sophism. At very least, it wasn't intended as such.

I have yet to see proof in the existence of god and I have yet to see proof that there is no god. I am an agnostic as opposed to an atheist.

My agnosticism extends to encompass reality as a whole. I have never been presented with, and I believe I will never be presented with, hard evidence to prove that this world exists outside my perception. Having said that, my perception of the world is all I have so I generally rely on a "given A, then..." type of arrangement, where "A" is that the physical world exists as it appears.

I accept that it is possible that the earth, the galaxy and everything else exists. I also accept that it is possible that I am of non-physical origin living a simulation. I can't be sure one way or the other as any physical proof could be part of the simulation. You can't be sure of that either.... you can whole heartedly place your belief in one possibility, but anybody who claims to know the absolute truth of existence is deluding themselves. The only thing we can be sure of is that we can't be sure of anything. :wink:

As such, my point that it is unreasonable to debunk Astrology on the grounds of it it being less likely to be possible stands.

The validity of Astrology is possible, as Bluntmuffin has stated himself. Why argue for or against it, when we clearly don't have enough information available to us as humans to ever be able to know for sure?

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The validity of Astrology is possible, as Bluntmuffin has stated himself. Why argue for or against it, when we clearly don't have enough information available to us as humans to ever be able to know for sure?

I agree . Astrology can be possible...

now god, mpfffff.... an electrical current in the brain, causing you feeling funny, at best, lol :innocent_n:

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bumpity bumpity ... sagittarian optimism to every fucken body out there reading this..

we will survive!

cheers

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I am not a full on believer. But I do find it interesting and fun to think about. Im also a bit into tarot cards.

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Yes its all really true if you can be bullshited!

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