resistant starches to feed your gut biome

[ThunderIdeal]

you're gonna be hearing a lot more about this as more research comes out.

-about 90% of the cells in your body aren't human.

-probiotics (eg real yoghurt) attempt to add good bacteria to your gut.

-prebiotics (things like inulin) are consumed in an attempt to give your gut biome something to feed on.

there's probably an old thread i could have put this in, but there is new research about this type of prebiotic and it's potential benefits are amazing, better sleep, conclusion of allergies, reduced inflammation, satiety, colon health and more. properly fed, your bacteria produce massive quantities of butyrate. i won't add links, but i'm really hoping people will contribute in this thread and maybe post their own experiences.

resistant starches aka indigestible starches are best sourced from raw potatos or unripe bananas, or in realistic terms, unmodified potato starch (up to four doses per day consisting of one tablespoon each) or plantain flour. there are some other sources and it might be possible to get plenty of resistant starch in your diet alone without supplementing, but doing so would tend to contradict a low carb diet. (as for the carbs extant in the supplemental forms, i guess they have minimal impact on caloric intake and insulin since the bacteria gets much of it)

results tend to be better when probiotics are included in the diet (unpasteurised greek yoghurt, fermented vegetables, kefir, supplements).

i wish torsten was around to read and/or add to this.

who is gonna do this with me and post results?

[Dreamwalker.]

yeah I read that there's a lot of diseases that can be treated by altering the guts microflora ....probiotics is a nice way to do that........................I think my guys are doing ok....no unpleasant exchange

[ThunderIdeal]

i'm trying to discuss prebiotics not probiotics, particularly those categorised as 'resistant starches' which are recently being linked to startling health benefits.

[Torsten]

It really all depends on the bacteria that are the problem. In most cases it appears an increase in those bacteria that thrive on prebiotics can reduce many of the problems associated with IBS and other IBDs [as well as more obscure things like cholesterol, autoimmune conditions, inflammations, etc]. One major exception to this is however people who get symptoms from ingesting FODMAPs. In these cases the troublesome bacteria are actually of a type that thrives on various higher saccharides, including many of the resistant starches. A good way to try whether resistant starches are a benefit or a problem is to put some inulin in your diet. Inulin is cheap and easy to obtain in relatively pure form.

I have problems with certain FODMAPs and with many resistant starches. Even small amounts of inulin will make me sick for days. There are other resistant starches so you can try one by one. Acacia gum is another really bad one for me which is an excellent prebiotic for most others. Even the small amounts they put into chocolate milk is enough to create an emergency for me.

So be cautious, but don't let that put you off investigating them all. Each one is different. One might make you feel really good while the next might cause you problems. All prebiotics will cause you problems if you take too much at once. Work your way up slowly.

You will also find that most probiotic preparations these days contain prebiotics. This can be a problem if you are sensitive to prebiotics.

You may also find some prebiotics to be much more tolerable in conjunction with a probiotic. B.plantarum and C.butyricum seem to make prebiotics less problematic. So does 'prescript assisst' [a soil based organism probiotic].

I strongly recommend to get a gut bacteri analysis done as prebiotics can also cause SIBO. For example, turns out I have more than enough Bifidobacterium and Lactobacillus [the two that form the basis of most of the probiotics you can readily buy], but I have a deficiency in Streptococcus [which is in almost no probiotic].

[ThunderIdeal]

its easy to read this stuff and think it doesn't concern you because you don't have any digestive dramas. lets be clear that taking these measures for a healthier gut biome can have much wider implications for your health than you might think.

for those unfamiliar with what a FODMAP is http://www.marksdailyapple.com/fodmaps/

[C_T]

will have a read, interesting thread.

[C_T]

is it talking about these things raw or cooked? thats makes a very big difference

i can't help but think they are clutching at straws, and over simplifying things.

To class small amounts of fruit worse than processed pasturised milk? doesn't seem right sorry.

Everyone should replace milk with almond milk (non sweetened). i think everyone should be eating fruit and vegetable and only small amounts of meat/dairy.

How many people truly don't eat anything processed and cook all their own meals? This is the best starting point imo.

Edit: yes you should eat fruit not drink its juice, a glass of fruit juice is no better than a glass of soda. too much fruit does unbalance, but ive never encounter it from the raw source, only from the manufactured source.

Do the studies differentiate between the two? because they are not in the same class and perform different roles in the body.

Edited April 11, 2014 by C_T

[Dreamwalker.]

opps reading too fast .......this is what I was thinking of .........its effect on the immune system...................

"Problems ranging from autoimmune disease to clinical depression and simple obesity may in fact be linked to immune dysfunction that begins with a "failure to communicate" in the human gut, the scientists say. Health care of the future may include personalized diagnosis of an individual's "microbiome" to determine what prebiotics or probiotics are needed to provide balance."

http://medicalxpress.com/news/2013-09-gut-microbes-linked-proper-immune.html

and Fructooliogosaccharides http://medicalxpress.com/news/2013-07-fructooliogosaccharides-health-benefits.html

"health benefits of short-chain fructooliogosaccharides (scFOS), which are low-calorie, non-digestible carbohydrates that can improve food taste and texture while aiding immunity, bone health and the growth and balance of important bacteria in the digestive track."

[Torsten]

how timely. CSIRO explains the benefits of resistant starch.

 

[Torsten]

butyrate producing bacteria [the ones that eat resistant starches] can also protect from one of the most common health effects of obesity - fatty liver.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3656030/

[ThunderIdeal]

i'm trying to really get a few people into this because it's a blindspot in the approaches of even the most health-conscious folk.

i think dairy-type probiotics are okay but more of a bandaid approach. the "chink in the armour" of folk with deficient gut flora is probably more soil-based organisms which you will find in fermented vegetables and maybe some more specialised probiotic capsules. Clostridium comes to mind and no amount of kefir, yakult or greek yoghurt will help you recolonise your gut with some of these organisms.

so here's the low down.

TAKE YOUR PROBIOTICS AND PREBIOTICS AT THE SAME TIME because those organisms hitch a ride on the food source rather than being destroyed by the stomach before they arrive at their destination.

HOW DO I MEET A QUOTA OF RESISTANT STARCHES? tapioca starch is questionable, some people can apparently digest the calories, so lets concentrate on potato starch, plantain flour, or green unripe bananas/plantains. you mustn't heat/cook these sources, the powders are easily mixed with a little water especially sparkling water, and the unripe bananas apparently go alright in a smoothy. an unripe banana will provide more than half as much resistant starch as the full daily dose of potato starch (four tablespoons spread throughout the day).

GAS because there is some serious fermentation happening when you consume resistant starch, you will experience more gas than normal so if you're going for a job interview or a date simply ditch your regime about 6 or 10 hours in advance, and resume it afterwards.

FURTHER READING

http://www.marksdailyapple.com/vegetable-powders-probiotic-prebiotic-timing-resistant-starch-routine-eating/#axzz2zCSaLNrr

http://www.marksdailyapple.com/how-to-conduct-a-self-experiment-resistant-starch/

http://www.marksdailyapple.com/resistant-starch-your-questions-answered/#axzz2zCZcjkNV

http://www.marksdailyapple.com/the-definitive-guide-to-resistant-starch/#axzz2zCZcjkNV

A MORE SERIOUS APPROACH

http://drbganimalpharm.blogspot.com.au/2013/11/how-to-cure-sibo-small-intestinal-bowel.html

Edited April 18, 2014 by ThunderIdeal

[ThunderIdeal]

CT, sorry i haven't replied to your post but you seem to be responding to the piece on FODMAPs and its fairly peripheral to the intended scope of this thread. as far as cooking and cooling it is very important when it comes to resistant starches, especially if you want to source it from actual meals (cooked potato, rice, legumes etc). that stuff is explained pretty thoroughly within the links just above this post.

[Dreamwalker.]

so you can't cook the green banana?......................has to be raw?

[ThunderIdeal]

please refer to the links for clarification on questions of cooking. basically, i think the RS present in foods like raw potato, green banana isn't present if eaten cooked, HOWEVER if cooked then cooled the amount of resistant starch can actually be INCREASED. they can be reheated lightly so you aren't eating cold food.

i can report that the gas i was talking about seems to subside pretty quickly (i've been consuming kimchi and genuine greek yoghurt with my potato starch, and did a stint with tapioca starch). this seems to indicate that there has already been a shift in the populations of my various gut inhabitants.

[AndyAmine.]

Who should I see for a gut biome test?

Just my GP, my gastro specialist, a private provider?

[Torsten]

There is a test you can do in oz that will show you the levels of the 4 main genera, the levels of SCAs in your stool, candida levels and a few optionals. I have not found any doctors who are registered with this lab, so your doc would need to register with them, get their stationary, and then give you a referral. Sharn at koda phytorium registered with them at my request, so you could also make an appointment with her and discuss the referral with her.

If you want to get a more detailed analysis of the genera [but without any of the other info] then you are better off using ubiome. It does take a few months to get the results though .

The local test will give you a better idea of what's wrong as it shows you symptoms as well as imbalances. ubiome only gives you raw genetic data.

Recent research has shown that your biome can shift dramatically within 24h depending on what food has been eaten. This means that any changes in diet [eg increase RS] should be done gradually. It also means that any biome analysis sould be done after a few days of 'representative' food, ie your average diet.

[frozenthunderbolt]

Was reading about different probiotics today, dirt being one often neglected.

Apparently SBO's (soil based organisms) can just about fix many cases of IBS and can assist in a range of other problems.
There is one brand that has isolated a bunch of the common (and non-pathogenic strains) - it has the advantage of not being temperature sensitive and being able to survive stomach acids to actually reach the gut.

It goes a ways to explaining Geophagy in some humans and animals - instinctive self medication?

[Torsten]

After years of trying all sort of obscure probiotics [both pharma and fermented foods] without any major benefits, I was put onto prescript assist, which is a soil based probiotic. It has the effect on me sismilar to a medium dose of prednisone in terms of how it settles inflammation and normalises gut processes. Interestingly it's beneficial effects are largely negated by the common lactic acid producing species probiotics.

[Zen Peddler]

I have two autoimmune diseases - neither which I'd recommend - and I can cause them to flare up within ten minutes by one simple act - eating cooked tomatoes or any Neal with a high tomato-based content. It fucking sucks cause I love them!!

there are patients that actually advocate no starch diet because there is a presumption that autoimmunity may be a loss of self tolerance when certain starch-eating stomach bacteria release antigens that are identical to the hosts causing molecular mimicry.