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Slybacon

What is the universe inside?

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maybe one has to imagine it as a balloon being filled with more air, in a vacuum. nah i cant analogise this

Ask Reptyle, he'd say it's an egg

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Ok, so the question remains. If the material universe is expanding, expanding into what? Everything starts to seem a little silly when you look closer.

 

Yes, but that's part of the great mystery, isn't it?

The question you ask is metaphysical; that is, beyond the physical. We can start with the assumption that physical laws and all things pertaining to matter only do so in regards to the physical realm. A second assumption which seems reasonable prima facie is that the physical realm is only relevant to the universe itself (since all physical matter is contained within the physical universe). From here it seems plausible to suggest that the universe doesn't expand into something in the same way a balloon expands into the surrounding air. Both the balloon and the surrounding atmosphere share the same physical substrate, whereas the case of the universe doesn't give us the same luxury. Whatever is outside of the universe cannot be physical. If it were physical it would be in the universe already, and the question of "what is the universe expanding into" would make perfect sense.

"The universe is expanding" doesn't necessarily require the universe to be expanding into anything, since we have no reason to suppose there is anything outside of the universe for it to expand into.

Then again, I'm no physicist. In the end there's really only one way to find out, but I don't have a spaceship. Yet.

I'm inclined to go with Quilliam's suggestion in regards to not thinking about the edge of the universe as any clear border. Balloons don't quite provide an adequate analogy, sadly. Pop!

[edit] Basically, physical expansion is a physical property so to ask what the universe is expanding into presupposes that whatever is outside of the physical universe operates under the same physical laws. This doesn't make sense.

Also, it doesn't seem plausible to observe what's in the outiverse since any observation would theoretically make the outiverse part of the universe. Mystery indeed.

Edited by JDanger
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Well, we can see 14 billion years in each direction right... And the universe is expanding, infact its expanding "faster than the speed of light".

That means, looking further away, your looking further back in time.

Now, the space between us is also explanding, the further places expanding faster, to a point where its expanding faster than the speed of light, so the light from those place "will never be viewable by us" as the space between us is expanding faster than the light can travel.

This may lead to the big rip. Once no more expansion, it may well collapse and start all over again?

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Oh, and I just found this:

Big Bang Scientist Takes Own Life

Physicist Andrew Lange, co-leader of an international team that produced a detailed image of remnants of the Big Bang showing the universe is flat, has died in an apparent suicide, police say.

He was 52.

Lange was a physicist at the California Institute of Technology. University President Jean-Lou Chameau notified the institution in an email that Lange apparently took his own life on Friday.

Lange checked into a hotel last Thursday and the next morning housekeepers found him dead, apparently due to asphyxiation, police Detective Lieutenant John Dewar said.

Lange recently resigned as chairman of the Division of Physics, Mathematics and Astronomy, Caltech said.

Lange was best known as co-leader of project "Boomerang", which in 1998 used a telescope, carried over Antarctica by a balloon for 10½ days, to study the so-called cosmic microwave background - a gas of thermal radiation left over from the embryonic universe. (Boomerang was short for Balloon Observations of Millimetric Extragalactic Radiation and Geophysics.)

The experiment showed the spatial geometry of the universe is flat and supported theories that it will expand forever and not collapse upon itself.

The observations were considered the first detailed images of the infant universe, Caltech said.

They largely matched predictions and suggested that scientists were on the right track in understanding the earliest moments of the universe, its age and the amount of so-called dark matter that holds galaxies together.

"It is an incredible triumph of modern cosmology to have predicted their basic form so accurately," Lange said when the research was published in 2000.

A flat universe also supports the "inflation" theory that the universe underwent a rapid expansion in a fraction of a nanosecond after its birth.

Lange and Italian team leader, Paolo De Bernardis of Rome's La Sapienza university, were awarded one of Italy's 2006 Balzan prizes, annual awards of 1 million Swiss francs, for contributions to cosmology.

Lange was born in Illinois on July 23, 1957..

He graduated from Princeton University in 1980, received a PhD from the University of California, Berkeley, in 1987, and was a visiting associate at Caltech in 1993-94.

He was appointed a full professor in 1994 and was named the Marvin Goldberger Professor of Physics in 2001.

In 2006, he became a senior research scientist at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory and was appointed chairman of Caltech's physics, mathematics and astronomy division in 2008.

Lange had three young sons, according to the university.

AP

The universe is a funny mistress.

Edited by JDanger

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i don't think the physical universe is an illusion. i think where we get confused is when we try to differentiate the universe from ourselves. this is where i think the objective observer method fails to be adequate in formulating theories about the totality. you're only getting half the picture if you don't take into account the consciousness that is allowing the experience of the existence of the universe to occur.

the universe is occurring within (us) as much as it's occurring outside of (us) as we're all indistinct from it's very fabric.. all i'm saying is that consciousness seems to be a vital element of the physical universe, without which it couldn't occur as the physical universe is really an interpretation of a hyper complex phenomenon from a perspective(you) whose boundaries are inherently limited as human cognition & consciousness has it's own specific set of algorithms which allow it to function the way it does..

then again i'm one who hasn't seen anything to convince me the universe isn't infinite. so in the face of that where'd you go?

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i don't think the physical universe is an illusion. i think where we get confused is when we try to differentiate the universe from ourselves. this is where i think the objective observer method fails to be adequate in formulating theories about the totality. you're only getting half the picture if you don't take into account the consciousness that is allowing the experience of the existence of the universe to occur.

:worship:

Very nice.

Just to clarify, when you say we should take consciousness into account, are you referring specifically to qualia (the observer's subjective first-person experience), or consciousness in general?

Both seem potentially problematic, though I think I do agree with you.

Also, forgive the off-topicness.

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Space is in the universe rather than the universe being in space

Rather than expanding it seems more like stretching.

It maybe like a current bun swelling in the oven, the currents being the galaxies & the dough representing space.

The ability of space to stretch, as well as curve & warp, is the basis ov Einstein's general theory ov relativity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metric_expansion_of_space#What_is_the_universe_expanding_into.3F

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There's "space" between atoms right? I mean "solid matter" isn't actually solid, it's just the illusion of solidity. So what if the edge of the universe is just expanding in a similar space without anything else to run into?

Or what if the universe is only filling up with space like a balloon. If you draw two dots on a deflated balloon and then you blow it up, the two dots separate.

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The universe is not expanding into anything, almost by definition; there is simply more space at later times than at earlier times. It may be that the size of the universe is infinite, which is easy to conceptualize.

Even if the universe is finite, it is possible to make more space without having any "outside" space. A common analogy is to consider that it is possible to increase the surface area of a balloon by inflating it, without needing any additional balloons to facilitate the expansion. However, a balloon is a two-dimensional surface expanding into a three-dimensional space. There is not theorized to be a higher-dimensional space into which three-dimensional space is expanding; more of it simply appears as if by stretching.[7]

This finite universe theory supposes that the universe has no "edge", but wraps around on itself. If it were possible to travel the entire length of the universe without going faster than light, one would simply end up back in the same place, not unlike going all the way around the surface of the balloon (or a planet like the Earth).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metric_expansion_of_space#What_is_the_universe_expanding_into.3F

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I could understand the Bun analogy if they could explain the oven better. Its just a crap analogy i think.

I understand the traveling around a balloon better. That would imply that 3d is just an illusion and space is virtually flat like the earth. Whats in the center of the balloon? God? a void? hahaha so many questions inside questions.......

Thanks all for the posts, has been an absolute ball reading them. It really is amazing how such a small thing can evoke so much thought.

I find it very healthy to think about such things. Please continue to post your ideas, i find them fascinating....

~boom

Edited by Slybacon

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sometimes i think that a paradox is what you find when your perspective has rotated all the way around a question. they are beautiful cognitive culminations, although they can be a bit unsatisfying naturally.

on an unrelated note, xodarap is onto it i reckon, but there are many other ways to approach this question.

if there are subtle (or not-so-subtle) interactions with hidden localities, or whatever, then they are also part of the universe. otherwise we need some better words, or updated definitions. basically there might be other universes, or beansprouts, but for our purposes the answer is that nothing exists beyond the universe because the universe is EVERYthing. we expect the borders of the universe might include before the big bang (time and space did not exist), and the spatial margin where the "outer"-most light races away from all else and becomes more dispersed, followed closely by super-accelerated matter, and eventually whopping great galaxies and other shit. we might discover that the borders of the universe are very, very different, and the nature of the universe itself may be very different, to what scientific inquirers can currently perceive, fathom or imagine.

personally i think we are wedged in a mind-boggling heap of dimensions, so it's a bit early to be defining the edge of reality. can you define the edge of awareness?

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it's not inside of anything. dear god man it just is.

pretty cool thing though huh? i'm quite attached to it for now.

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Just to clarify, when you say we should take consciousness into account, are you referring specifically to qualia (the observer's subjective first-person experience), or consciousness in general?

Both seem potentially problematic, though I think I do agree with you.

 

i mean you & anyone who's reading this & pondering the whole concept :)

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sfsf

Edited by Teljkon

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we may simply be the smaller building block of yet another form of existance.

 

yeah, i might not word it like that but i know what you mean. i've always had a vision of the universe as something like an infinite continuum, a sort of 'fractal' viewed from the specific limited perspective of scale of human consciousness. it's as though the continuum has distinct levels of repetition of structure according to it's own laws. for example, one distinct level of scale (from smaller to larger) would be:

Atom ---------> solar-system. which share the same basic structure... & if one were to observe the subatomic universe indefinitely, perhaps the same pattern would be repeated... ad-infinitum?

isn't it true that the average space between the atoms in our bodies is similar to the space between solar-systems relative to their size?

following this train of thought, our bodies are like universes in themselves with infinite vistas of subatomic space & matter within them.

& further following this train of thought, the boundaries of what we call the physical universe, could metaphorically be like the boundaries of our bodies, which lie within a greater continuum of space like our bodies do amongst groups of other peoples bodies (other universes ((the multiverse))).

so our solar system could be like an atom in the body of a creature which exists on a level of scale which is vastly vastly larger than our own & that creature is what we call our universe.

the big bang = conception & expansion = growth until a critical size potential is reached, universe stabalizes for a time before it cools & disintegrates.

some wild imaginings & i feel like a caveman trying to put this into words lol, but it clicks with me :rolleyes:

Edited by paradox

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i think along similar lines, but the ways things correlate, reflect, vary and connect (and whatever) is of such magnitude that you don't really get very far imagining, let alone explaining. it's one of those many things that is possible to conceptualise in some way, when you are really switched on, but just barely possible to communicate a small part of it using words.

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Ok so that creatures universe would be part of an even larger creatures universe and that would continue infinitely? "its turtles all the way down"

So are all the creatures infinitely expanding or will it collapse and fly apart at some point. Could our solar system suffer some sort of cancer and could the creatures we call our universes actions affect ours?

Edited by Slybacon

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i think you are waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay oversimplifying it. god i can be a patronising dick sometimes, but seriously, that scene in men in black, and men in black two, where it's like the little jewel has a galaxy in it, and our universe is in some aliens marble.... it's so far from my idea of a psychadelic vision of reality.

small, big, outside, inside. pffft. these ideas collapse into themselves.

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small, big, outside, inside. pffft. these ideas collapse into themselves.

 

thats pretty much it hey, our traditional notions of physical reality are meaningless when confronted with the direct experience of....things

then again these concepts are probably equally meaningless to others.

theres a definite point where rationale based observation of physicality must collapse upon itself & the intellect transcended, where the closest thing to the 'truth' is paradox. nothing exists & everything exists, the universe is so infinitely enormous that it becomes infinitely miniscule & it's so infinitely enormous & miniscule at the same time that is ceases to exist altogether & you realize that it was your mind making it whatever it was in the first place, at which point you're back where you started & realize that the wisest thing to do is simply experience it's strangeness as yourself in this moment, fully aware that rationale will never get a grip on it & it's much more fun & productive to simply experience it direct without interpretation anyway.

could the creatures we call our universes actions affect ours?

well that way of putting it is just one way of putting it & i don't expect anyone to really see it just like that but to kind of answer your question i think from our level of perspective & relative size, it would take billions of earth years for this 'creature' to do something as simple as scratch it's nose, so we probably wouldn't be aware of it lol

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in a rush to get to work but here is a simplified version of one of my ideas... the big bang is just the recycling of a giant blackhole, like so giant our brains cannot comprehend... when this black hole explodes it pushes all existing objects out at the same speed hence we cannot differentiate between things here before it or those produced from it... as to why some people suggest that we are accelerating out... i believe in deep space there are many of these super black holes surrounding the entire known universe (could be explanation of dark matter) and that we are slowly but surely being sucked in towards these to eventually be crushed... and then spewed out as the universes most simple particles to once again wait for stars to fuse and supernovas to crush them into the larger elements that eventually make planets, etc and life (possibly)... in this theory i believe the universe is endless and matter is endless and time is endless so this exploding of a black hole and then being sucked in again is just a cycle that has occurred and will occur for ever... (similar to big bang big crunch theory but on different scale)

second theory is that we are a bubble in a sea of energy (energy accounts for dark matter in this theory) as the sea swirls it causes eddies, when the energy is a whole its gravity is distributed amongst the whole and keeps (kinetic energy) high enough to not allow the energy to materialize into matter... when an eddy is formed a portion of the energy breaks off and its gravity is now only distributed amongst itself, it therefore collapses in on itself and tries to occupy a single point in space this big crunch causes a massive explosion (big bang) that forms a bubble in the sea of energy..

that is all i have time for but if people are interested in hearing more let me know and ill try and post a more in depth explanation...

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^^^^ Thanks, yes Im interested in yours and everybody elses theories. Your inputs to this discussion have been very insightful. Everybody please continue........

When you say bubble in a sea of energy you are referring to just our universe? Is a cool concept, would be interesting to see what happens when 2 bubbles meet.

Edited by Slybacon

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cool mr stay puft :) love the blackhole idea.

something i recently read that i find ultra interesting is the fact that minuscule quantum black-holes apparently exist everywhere throughout the universe even within the sub-atomic space of our own bodies.

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asdas

Edited by Teljkon

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