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The Corroboree
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trucha

How to recognize a pachanoi

Question

As if I have all the time in the world....

I was wondering what features can reliably recognize a pachanoi.

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^^^ Interesting looking cactus! Any chance that may be a hybrid with some knuthianus or something else in the mix? It has a very "notchy" appearance.

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its knobby appearance differentiates it from any pachanoi I've seen before.

Young growth has reddish brown-spines then older spines have a golden tip

Knuthianus was the first impression I got when I seen it as well but something leads me more towards pachanoi

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Agree with you! Rounded stump looks like knuthianus or another cuzco hybrid. So do the strong Edges! I'd bet on this having knuthianus in it to a certain degree. Would love to see better pics!

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certainly looks knuthianoid , but what do I know? I dont (yet) own a knuthi

btw what is knuthi supposed to be?

a pachanoi? a pachanoi X cuzco or a pachanoi X macro/glaucus/peru ? a real species ?

and: are them flowers really telling anything to us about ID? It seems they all start the same colour-shape (pachanoi, cuzco, scop)

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I suggest you read your own books kt.... smile.gif

Trichocereus are the canines of the plant world. I think we need to look at finding acceptable terms simply so that we can know where talking about similar items. Chihuahua, Husky, Jack Russel, Bulldog, Great Dane, etc., all are used simply so that we know what sort of Canine we are referring to, but it doesn't mean they are a different species. Dogs in fact show a much greater degree of difference than observable in most of the Trichocereus we're being asking to set species limits on.

The fact that T. pachanoi and T. peruvianus in particular, two plants with great human interest, lack the degree of genetic isolation (and genetic age from its common predecessor) that would produce radical differences means that even if you were to say such and such a trait determines a "species" there are bound to be plants that exist that upset such distinct rules of identification. This unless you were to make the rules regarding identifiers so broad that they were meaningless.

There do appear to be plants that seem to bear some fairly distinct appearence that may be easily defined and nicely set as "species," but those plants that seem to be the ones that carry mescaline and have gained great human interest seem to fall outside of such easily defined species catagories.

I wish I could straighten this all out, or help you do so, but it is clear from your own words kt that you in fact know that you will be incapable of doing so yourself, based partially on some of the reasons I've just mentioned. I know I have maybe muddied the water with too much conjecture, but I fear that you may be setting too rigorous a standard not only on other or yourself, but on the plants themselves who aren't limited by the names and limitations of what is and what isn't a species we've place on them.

~Michael~

Thought I'd bump this to add my 2c: I hear that scientists posit that different dog breeds - if discovered today, rather than created by us through artificial selection - would actually be labelled as separate species. It illustrates the grey areas of nomenclature quite well if you ask me.

We seem to think of all dogs as the same species, because we know first hand that the vast majority of them all come from the same common ancestor. But when the same thing happens in nature without our experiencing it directly or being responsible for it, we tend to draw different conclusions. It seems like this business of genetic classification can be a rather subjective venture methinks

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definately a pachanoi!

P1140492.jpg P1140493.jpg

NZ pachanoi, very short spines

Edited by sagiXsagi

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