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planthelper

lagochilus inebrians fake versus real seeds

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I can say two things, no specimens seem to excist of this plant, even with the big guns:

http://epic.kew.org/searchepic/detailquery.do?requiredPage=1&scientificName=Lagochilus&datasources=ipni&datasources=mc&datasources=kr&datasources=ebbd&datasources=libcat&datasources=pmb&datasources=herbcat&datasources=ecbot&datasources=livcoll&datasources=sid&datasources=sepasal&datasources=efz&categories=names&categories=bibl&categories=colln&categories=taxon&categories=flora&detailDatasource=herbcat

if nobody has a taxonomy specimen, this speaks volumes.

inebrians doesn't excist, so it seems.

maybe some of you with more access to specimens and descriptions can shed more light onto it.

my plant flowered, so this would help to id it, I hope.

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Do you have any pics of the material you collected the seeds from? I don't have a key, but I do have some guidelines of what distinguishes inebrians from other species. Most of this revolves around calyx numbers, flower size, and degree of hairiness. I also have pics of many different commercial products which vary from 'very close' to 'nothing like it'.

I do have a key of the several species found in china and to be honest most of them would probably look identical unless you know what to look for.

The rarity of the real thing is a major controbutor to its absence in collections. It is much easier to collect in iran, armenia, and china than to go to this area of uzbekistan. The home of inebrians is in the south where until the american invasion of afghanistan it had been too dangerous to go for pretty much most of my life. It was the refuge for the anti-taliban forces during the afghan taliban years, with plenty of fighting going on. Before that is was instrumental in the russian invasion of afghanistan. This region had not seen anythign resembling peace for several decades and travel was difficult and dangerous. Even when Carl went 10 years ago it was no picnic and if it had not been for the help and hospitality of the Ikramovs [which Carl fostered for a long time before the trip] the mission may well have failed. Even if he had made it there and back, finding the plants would have been impossible without local help. I am just reminding everyone of this because it is easy to forget how quickly things change. The relative ease of travel in that region today is very different to the past. Once you learn about the political and social background of the region you quickly understand why there are no plants in botanic collections and why it is ridiculous to think that the herbal material on the market even today is the real thing in most cases.

But like I said, to the herb market and the ethnobotanical experience it really doesn't matter as many other species appear to have similar pharmacology. I am now actually more interested in the other species because it would be nice to ascertain subtle differences. At the time when we went hunting for it there was no knowledge of other species being active.

I'll post pics of my flowering plant later. My flowers are quite different to yours, but that could just be climate differences.

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Plants from MJB seed. Note, this may or may not be inebrians. This seed was not derived from dried herb, but from a seed colletion as far as I know so there is a good chance this might actually be the right species. I was unable to pin down any distinct differences to my inebrians. In particular note the degree of hirsuteness, the 2-4 calyx arrangement, and the size and markings of the flower.

post-6-0-47518100-1365061683_thumb.jpg

post-6-0-67437100-1365061691_thumb.jpg

post-6-0-68443200-1365061698_thumb.jpg

post-6-0-55159300-1365061704_thumb.jpg

post-6-0-45943300-1365061711_thumb.jpg

post-6-0-92288600-1365061721_thumb.jpg

Lagochilus sp MJB 01 $J_smaller.jpg

Lagochilus sp MJB 02 $J_smaller.jpg

Lagochilus sp MJB 04 $J_smaller.jpg

Lagochilus sp MJB 06 $J_smaller.jpg

Lagochilus sp MJB 07 $J_smaller.jpg

Lagochilus sp MJB 08 $J_smaller.jpg

Lagochilus sp MJB 01 $J_smaller.jpg

Lagochilus sp MJB 02 $J_smaller.jpg

Lagochilus sp MJB 04 $J_smaller.jpg

Lagochilus sp MJB 06 $J_smaller.jpg

Lagochilus sp MJB 07 $J_smaller.jpg

Lagochilus sp MJB 08 $J_smaller.jpg

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Plants from Ikramov seed

post-6-0-54751000-1365062140_thumb.jpg

post-6-0-10902700-1365062152_thumb.jpg

Dried specimen provided to Carl by Dr Ikramov. A little worn after the rough travels, but the important features are easily dinstinguished. This is the closest thing to a properly identified herbarium specimen we have access to.

post-6-0-99105500-1365062567_thumb.jpg

post-6-0-96913700-1365062574_thumb.jpg

post-6-0-23048800-1365062576_thumb.jpg

post-6-0-64433800-1365062578_thumb.jpg

Lagochilus sp sce188 03 $J_smaller.jpg

Lagochilus sp sce188 05 $J_smaller.jpg

IMG_3311.jpg

IMG_3319.jpg

IMG_3319_cilia_calyx.jpg

IMG_3319_cilia_stem.jpg

Lagochilus sp sce188 03 $J_smaller.jpg

Lagochilus sp sce188 05 $J_smaller.jpg

IMG_3311.jpg

IMG_3319.jpg

IMG_3319_cilia_calyx.jpg

IMG_3319_cilia_stem.jpg

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why? I reckon all the species and varieties floating around are just as desirable. That's the good thing about herb activity setting the market. ie, if the herb doesn't work then don't grow the seed.

what parameters can you control? These guys seem fine with cold and heat, and even lots of water [as long as free drained], but it is the humidity that kills them. Exactly the same as pituri for me.

I have a spare room that is airconditioned and I am thinking of putting some seeds down for this winter. If it gets too humid outside at any point I can keep growing them inside.

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I thought instantly as soon as I posted I should have said also, until I get my head around the other active species and can source something.

I have the temp and humidity under constant control. I have been running it for the last week and can hold all the extremes quite well. All I need to do is work on a softer FAE technique and will build a few prototypes this weekend from hydroponic theory I guess. I hope to use silica gel in my new ventilation so the gear doesn't have to work so hard re humidity.

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how would silica gel help? it can only absorb once and then is spent [before needing 2h of baking]. maybe Calcium chloride is a better option as it liquifies the humidity and can be tapped off.

so I take it lowering humidity is a feature still being worked on? with the kind of air volume required I think a dehumidifier is required.

Then again in your location it might not be as much of an issue anyway as they don't mind winter humidity. It's the hot humidity that kills them.

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The silica gel, I have access to heaps and feely, and I was just going to use it much like a DIY carbon sock. Changing it each few days. I've successfully ran it at

20C, 10% humidity

25C, 50% humidity

27C, 90% humidity

30C, 10% humidity

Each for 2 days with wet pots inside to help make it as real as it would be. I've utilised a humidifier and small dehumidifier in the portable setup. I find my current air exchange to be too rushed with the can fans I have, and would like to aim for a constant small airflow that the controls wouldn't be too effected by, hence the silica gel idea. After another week or so testing variables such as me 'holidaying' and leaving it to its own devices, recording the max/lows etc ill know if I really need to try something for extra humidity. The only thing I can't test for is the cold temps. This will raise humidity but the dehumidifier should be able to cope, if not another one is fairly accessible and cheap.

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Then there was Salvia tianshanica sold as Lagochilus inebrians (as plant from Ruehlemanns, now he took it out of his assortment):
th_923957498_Salviatianshanicamgl6_122_1

There are also other interesting sedative Lagochilus- species in Central Asia: http://books.google....hemical&f=false

Lagochilus platyacanthus (Zaytsegub ploskokolyuchiy), http://www.plantariu...e/id/91242.html
Lagochilus gypsaceus (Zayach'ya guba gipsovaya) and
Lagochilus platycalyx (Zaytsegub ploskochashechnyy, Zayach'ya guba shirokochashechnaya) http://www.tienshan....ycalyx1_750.jpg

Lagochilus platyacanthus occurs in Kyrgyzstan, not in Uzbekistan, Lagochilus gypsaceus occurs in Uzbekistan, not in Kyrgyzstan, Lagochilus platycalyx occurs in both countries.
They are also hemostatic, sedative and hypotensive. An infusion promoted blood coagulation and posessed antibacterial activity. There was also found Lagochilin (in L. gypsaceus even 1,98%), Stachydrine, Flavonoids and Coumarins as actives.

The intoxicating mint, phonetic: Zaytsegub opyanyayuschiy / Z. ploskokolyuchiy


The diterpene-alcohol Lagochiline was found to be an antagonist at metabotropic glutamate receptors:
http://stimuluswatch...hoactive-plants
this action was also observed at Lithium and nootropics
the mGlu-5- receptor was shown to play a role in cocaine addiction.
mGlu-Rs also play a role in the sedative action of alcohol and some ligands have analgesic action.

Microscopic foto, maybe the real seed (from the herb, which looked very similar to inebrians):

2hexziu.jpg

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OK I should probably step in here. The seeds PH showed were mine, and they came from shaman's garden, not shamanic plants (that was my bad - although i wouldn't recommend dealing with either to be honest).

Does anyone have any idea what they could possibly be? Would anyone like to have a crack at germing them? I have quite a few.

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Thanks, Torsten for sharing your insightful Lagochilus- research

Edited by mindperformer

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my climate rooms are not suitable for lago-seeds, also ouside we have humid winters

I will re-edit the added microscopic picture, because it deformed

Edited by mindperformer

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I'm willing to set up a controlled environment for these guys, if they're anything remotely related to what they're supposed to be.

The question is since lago seeds are so fussy with cold stratification and whatnot, and these are unknown seeds, should I just try a range of germination techniques?

I can post 60x pics of the seeds if that could help anyone ID them? (and I can find the camera lens..!)

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I'd love to have a play but I don't have controlled conditions at the moment. I'm going to have to work on that...

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pm me to remind me and i'll send some out to you both on thursday (don't get most of my seeds back until tomorrow night). i had about 60 of the things but i can only find 15 or so, there are more around. i've also got some of the old seed from PH's lago herbage in the original picture, but i also can't find that for the life of me...

aaaah it's just started raining here, my plants are happy :)

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waterboy i'll send you some too, you're in a more appropriate climate than the rest of us in this thread. :P

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pm me to remind me and i'll send some out to you both on thursday (don't get most of my seeds back until tomorrow night). i had about 60 of the things but i can only find 15 or so, there are more around. i've also got some of the old seed from PH's lago herbage in the original picture, but i also can't find that for the life of me...

aaaah it's just started raining here, my plants are happy :)

endo, don't forget I took some of your "fake lago" seeds, I am too exhausted to count but, I guess I got around 60 of them, so all is well.

can you please let me know, if I gave you some of the "maybe real" lago seeds you just mentioned just lately or a long time ago?

dood and all the others, just send me a pm with your address and I will share some of the fake lago seeds with you, I think playing a number game will increase our chances, of successful germination.

my hunch with them is as well do sow them over winter, or use the fridge, or both.

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You must have most of mine then, ph, because I am down to 1/4 of what I started with. I'm starting to think I may not have ended out getting your "lago" seeds in the end, I would have found them around the house by now. They were ones you gave me recently, not a while back.

If you are happy to send them out to these guys that would be fantastic, thanks bud :) Take some and give the rest away to appropriate folks, I have enough for myself.

I had figured I would sow some immediately, some in the middle of winter, some with cold stratification in mid autumn, and some with cold stratification in mid winter. But winter here is hardly winter so I'd rather see how others go first tbh so I can control the conditions for growth!

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no, I did not take most of them.

you had TWO original coin bags, from the seller, with those seeds, I took about halve out of one, I have 60, you ought to have 180, and original amount you had lets say was 180. note, I am talking proportions here, and never counted the actual numbers, in other words I got 1/4 you got 3/4.

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sorry PH i think i know who pinched them... i didn't get your lago seeds from the herbage though i'm pretty sure now?

i gave half my seed box to a friend the other day who skipped town until this afternoon, i'll chase it all up then :)

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no you did not get any seeds from the original herb, you are correct, sorry for the side tracking everybody, but it's relevant because we want to get things right, and take our work here serious. :)

what makes me very curious about the "fake lago" seeds is the, fluff ball at the end!

as the pictures show in this thread, the plant we call now the "maybe real" lago, does display a fluff ball inside the calyx.

only difference is with the "maybe real" the fluff comes off, and with the fake the fluff obviously stays on the seeds.

the fake seeds are much bigger, but they share some morphological features with the maybe real!!

Edited by planthelper

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Planthelper could you send up the maybe-real seeds I forgot please?

I'm going to sow both of them now, this is just too intriguing :)

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Please keep us posted on the results of growing these out. I'm dieing to know what happens. I'm curious if the two seeds are even related plants. God I feel nerdy getting all excited about mystery seeds...

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