What's the purpose of a 'shaman'?

[mutant]

that's because I am good at aforisms and summing up ,when I got to, specially in written word, cause in real life I fail at summing up horribly.

a nice reply to my rather cynic opinions would be "okey, so what are neo-shamans, and what are their importance and "responsibilities" .

[Chrissy Star]

Do you think that true shaman's choose to come to this Earth plane specifically to live as a shaman (be born as a human), or are they beyond space and time and can flit about? I am thinking of how the Dalai Lama is a human who is tracked through his many lives in the human body (one life after the other). Are shaman's abilities beyond this?

My opinion: You know, my intuition tells me they are. My intuition tells me the Dalai Lama keeps one foot accessible to every person and thus does not go beyond a certain level. Shaman's do not, therefore are not bound by the necessity to be understood by all. Therefore they can flit about.

MUTANT - What do you mean by "drop the s"??

Also, a tip from a friend : be careful with your own mind (care for your mental concepts) and be wary of using banishing concepts (ie. "no westerner can become a shaman").

[Chrissy Star]

MUTANT: okey, so what are neo-shamans, and what are their importance and "responsibilities" ??

[mutant]

"drop the s" ? I said this? hmmmmm .... on using "banishing concepts" (aphorisms), its a dirty job, but someone got to do it and I am pretyty good at it.

okey, so what are neo-shamans, and what are their importance and "responsibilities" ??

again I leave the responsibilities for believers. I suppose its the same responsibilities like with a good holistic doctor, or in the same vain anyways. Which also implies that there are good ones and bad ones (neo shamans).

neo-shamanism derives from perfectly natural nostalgia for a more natural way of living, for a more tangible form of religion.

it's a natural reaction to the spiritual poverty of our times, and to the lie of most religions.

a religious approach to "return to nature" , especially helpful (?) to those that cannot really escape the urban nightmare.

unfortunately , like every religion, the concept is easily filled with not-so-practical and belief-type of views for transcendence.

Edited April 4, 2014 by mutant

[Chrissy Star]

Check this for a rant !!!!!

I think the role of the shaman is to creatively lift to a higher place through whatever mode or mix of modes they choose (ie. painting, story telling, chi energy, astral plane energy, plant medicine etc). I think the shaman can assist a person in connecting to their higher selves and through their higher selves gain insights and gifts which may be used to create a higher quality of life (ie. lift the spirits, heal, inspire, gain knowledge through lore, gain knowledge through communication with spirit etc).

I think the neo-shaman replicates this in a more eclectic way, which is less refined and lacking in capability. I think this lesser type shaman has developed due to our society's failure to continue to pass knowledge down through the ages.

I think that this knowledge flow has been purposefully infiltrated and eradicated due to it's overlap in areas which hold interest to other fields. I think that because spirituality is about keeping a person's will going through the choices a person makes, any field which relies upon people's will and choice can be effected by spiritual pursuits. I think that if the field assists a person's life it will be aligned with people's choices and the field will not have problems with spirituality, but if the field relies on a person's downfall or something which is not related to good spirits, happiness & health - then the field may clash with spirituality. Thus through calshes, religion can be a target for corruption.

I think that religious leaders and shamans who open channels for people themselves to access the spirit world are suppressed and knowledge on how to attain enlightenment is altered and stopped through concepts built up through the desire to support a economy# which is not a healthy one. I think that this has corrupted the practice to the point that only the idea of religion remains and that due to the inconceivability of the spiritual realms (by the human logic brain) many different ideas have created the many different religions.

I think that spirituality will always support an economy, but that the economy will not always support spirituality (keeping the spirits up through right living which brings happiness and health)....and that this difference can be defined by posing these 2 questions to yourself (try answering them as if someone else was asking you a question)...

What do you sincerely want? vs. What would you sincerely like?

May provide happiness, may not. vs. Happiness assured.

Posing these questions to yourself can assist you in assuring yourself that you are aligned with your spirit. What you are happy to do is generally what you are willing to do. What makes you healthy will also make you happy and thus is right for you. This is keeping the spirits up. This is keeping aligned with life. Happiness is an emotion (energy in motion) and energy in motion is what keeps life going.

No happiness, no will to continue, no desire to live in this body on the Earth plane, no spirit.

Happiness brings will to continue, a desire to live in the body on Earth, the spirits are up.

Shamanism can remind people of the spirit world and directly touch the emotions. The most important and primal emotion is happiness and love.

# Economy here means use of resources [1) Human resources; 2) Natural resources; 3) Social resources; 4) Manufactured resources.

Edited April 4, 2014 by Chrissy Star

[ThunderIdeal]

if we are talking about self empowerment here, a seizing of ones own fate, a personal quest beyond institutions and norms, be it to find ones own answers to ones own questions, to seek healing or direction, or just going to sea sea sea to see what one can see see see... and i think that's what some people are getting at with the seeking of shamans or calling themselves a neo/shaman..... then i'm tempted to say that you're doing it wrong if you say 'this shaman guy (institution) is onto it, he will show me the way'.

you can place yourself in whatever hands you choose. the church, a shaman, those are common choices but i'm suggesting you should let them hold your hand rather than carry you, face whatever you are facing head on and naked or maybe you won't REALLY find what you seek, you're like a juvenile that never goes off on its own and never fully experiences its surroundings let alone itself.

in my little reality, the ideal neo-shaman is basically a mate who has more experience in knowledge in mystical and therapeutic type fields, who can let you in on the straight dope, what they've learned the hard way can ease your way along a similar path, maybe preventing some difficulties and pitfalls they may have experienced and giving you tips that they've heard about or which may have helped them. what more can you ask than a humble and knowledgeable friend to introduce you to a brave new world, without claiming any kind of absolute authority or using their power over you for personal gain?

that's what i was lucky enough to experience anyway, just a cool mate with similar interests who explained some of the science, some of the realities and some of the various theories and stories, without ever acting like the teacher or anything other than a mate and an equal.

i'd take that over any mysterious figure, any reputable, charistmatic or miraculous figure who expects me to be led, because there's nothing they can give that i can't find myself. if it couldn't be found then NOBODY would have it, and if it could be handed out and received, then it would be available for the taking and MORE PEOPLE would have it.

maybe not everybody is ready to draw back their curtains and seek their own truth and just face whatever is there, uncoloured by their delusions or anyone elses!! if i can stand here and say i want to face the truth alone when the prospect actually terrifies me, then it makes sense that some people are more prepared than me and others are less prepared. maybe there is a requirement for "institutions" to direct people to their next level, i don't know, i do tend to believe there are incomprehensible layers of non-physical ummm lets say structures, which play a part in everything which is seemingly occurring in the portion of reality which we seem to experience and act in. so for the record, i'm not saying that my human self can look within and become master of reality, i'm saying that it can't rely on any physical source of knowledge other than itself.

[mutant]

chrissy, in your general definition of neo-shaman, I am one, supposedly.

but not everyone can be a good teacher, and I know I am not. I am a good analyst, an excellent debater, but teacher?

I am a good teacher (teaching edible mushrooms, growing plants) as long as my "pupil" is really thirsty for knowledge and smart enough to comprehend what I say. And this is not a good teacher.

cheers, this is a nice thread, I dig it.

[☽Ţ ҉ĥϋηϠ₡яღ☯ॐ€ðяئॐ♡Pϟiℓℴϟℴ]

"drop the s" ? I said this? hmmmmm .... on using "banishing concepts" (aphorisms), its a dirty job, but someone got to do it and I am pretyty good at it.

again I leave the responsibilities for believers. I suppose its the same responsibilities like with a good holistic doctor, or in the same vain anyways. Which also implies that there are good ones and bad ones (neo shamans).

neo-shamanism derives from perfectly natural nostalgia for a more natural way of living, for a more tangible form of religion.

it's a natural reaction to the spiritual poverty of our times, and to the lie of most religions.

a religious approach to "return to nature" , especially helpful (?) to those that cannot really escape the urban nightmare.

unfortunately , like every religion, the concept is easily filled with not-so-practical and belief-type of views for transcendence.

i thnk he meant the inverted commas when put ' ' s

;)

Edited April 5, 2014 by ☽Ţ ҉ĥϋηϠ₡яღ☯ॐ€ðяئॐ♡Pϟiℓℴϟℴ

[☽Ţ ҉ĥϋηϠ₡яღ☯ॐ€ðяئॐ♡Pϟiℓℴϟℴ]

Do you think that true shaman's choose to come to this Earth plane specifically to live as a shaman (be born as a human), or are they beyond space and time and can flit about? I am thinking of how the Dalai Lama is a human who is tracked through his many lives in the human body (one life after the other). Are shaman's abilities beyond this?

My opinion: You know, my intuition tells me they are. My intuition tells me the Dalai Lama keeps one foot accessible to every person and thus does not go beyond a certain level. Shaman's do not, therefore are not bound by the necessity to be understood by all. Therefore they can flit about.

 

MUTANT - What do you mean by "drop the s"??

Also, a tip from a friend : be careful with your own mind (care for your mental concepts) and be wary of using banishing concepts (ie. "no westerner can become a shaman").

thnk he means the inverted commas ' ' s

[theuserformallyknownasd00d]

I am a good teacher (teaching edible mushrooms, growing plants) as long as my "pupil" is really thirsty for knowledge and smart enough to comprehend what I say.

I think this is when the student becomes smarted than the teacher. Or was to begin with

[mutant]

hmmm smarter than me or not, I like dealing with smart people

in any case, neo-shamanism is not really about intelligence, but about spirituality, belief, emotion, instinct.

[Quantum Future]

What is the purpose of shaman?

Shaman is someone with deep understanding of the nature. Has deep connection with spirits.

Both in the historical context and the modern context?

Definitely not a spiritual leader or teacher (mutant, you mistake shaman and magus, that was in Egypt) . Rather lonely helper of the community. I think Indian Babas are kind of shamans. In the beginning led by an experienced one, then self-taught.

In modern times they're the same, but cities have their needs, you can find urban shamans as well.

Can anyone be a shaman?

Definitely, but it takes a lot of time and discipline. Constant readiness to go through problems to learn lessons about life.

Shamanism has nothing to do with religion mutant. It's attuning to the earth, but in a very practical way, no preaching. There are many different kinds of Shamanism. If anyone wants to try I highly recommend Huna -Hawaiian Shamanism. Either translation from Max Freedom Long or more up to date - Serge Kahili King - Urban Shaman.

Also don't mix psychedelics and shamanism. Even if shamans use natural substances - it's not something vital. Siberian shamanism is more harsh and adjusted to much harder conditions.

Are you a shaman?

Nope, got a different way of development, but I use some of shamanic techniques (eg. Dream work)

Tribal role :

The bearers of the answers in medical, emotional, dream and spiritual fields.

Offers for the community today:

Pretty much the same as it was before but adjusted to the societal progress. Bigger range of diseases, a big boom for spiritual growth, but still the same purpose - serving the major good.

Responsibility:

For the words they are saying and for quality of service.

Mutant:you might love science, but atomic structure of the universe was known during gautama budda's life through the inner dwelling. Nowadays scientists try to prove the multiverse existance which is known for mystics for thousands of years. Knowledge is cool and I like reading, but if you don't change it into experience - it doesn't become wisdom. Stays on a dry level. Placebo is a myth, hypnosis is a stage trick, acupuncture is a torture, yoga just stretching, monks are idiots sacrificing their lives to sit down. See both sides, don't neglect any. What works for one doesn't work for others. I'd never stuff myself with pharmaceutical antidepressants, but modern medicine has no cure for emotional problems. Shaman might be a cure in this case.

[mutant]

AEND

hey I dont love science , I love knowledge but not science, I appreciate and use science or scientific thought, because I am like that. but I dont only use that. I use my own experience mainly, which is soimething science does not accept as proof.

and I might love good hardcore techno and can even appreciate well-made nazi-gabba, but I dont love it , I cannot love nazi music.

and I dont really care about 'proof' because, like you said I also got my own way of development

I even believe in natal astrology, which I have researched, so what zodiac sign are you?

and, awaiting your response on whether you are nazi-friendly, have you researched your own natal chart?

and I am not mistaking magus w/ shamans. every man in power can potentially act oppressively and manipulatively, no?

if you think this is not true with shamans, I'd like an arguement about it.

and I'd like a statement about power, since you gave us some fine examples of NAZI speedcore in the other thread about the most extreme dance musics eve made..

****

I never said "shamans" or shamanic ways couldnt cure or relieve problems modern medicine and science cannot. On the contrary, it can.

My reply was a comment on the wanna-be's and on shamanism projected on modern psychonauts and explorers.

What I am saying is that trying to be a hippy doesn't make you a shaman.

we all come from western type cultures

and I am here to spoil your happy hour when you are all hugging each other and claim we are one.

YOU are one, not me

BUT we can pretend we can be one or celebrating our differences while actually doing something about it:

http://www.shaman-australis.com/forum/index.php?s=dacf77b2161cd2955fed2c2177d4c046&showtopic=38014&hl=

Edited April 22, 2014 by mutant

[Quantum Future]

If your main counter argument in this post is the nazi speedcore example in the hardest dance music I've heard then further discussion about shamanism is completely pointless with you. Don't try to discredit me because I used a genre of music with a nazi word in it. Boo-hoo, I like to see and experience things, even those extreme ones.

I also wrote that I'm not a shaman.

Every man in power does have influence, but shamans usually didn't live within the settlements. People who have a need had to make an effort to see them. It's the religion that always tried to control the people. Shamans are not priests, never preaching or scaring people.

What religion is a shaman? That's my question.

Where is the difference between a shaman and a mystic that uses skills to help people? I'm pretty sure I'm having a bit more practical and flexible approach to the definition of shaman. A mystic and a shaman can work in completely same fields covering the same purposes. That's my opinion.

[mutant]

of course they are 'priests' , they are the equivalent of priests in early societies...

the point that they were isolated so people had to search for them, does not make real difference...

even if all shamans were in remote areas, how could this weaken their effect or potential manipulation of people?

early "gods" used intermediates who were actually men , not semi-gods.

shamans in whatever form nowadays, whether healing locals or foreign neohippy psychedlic tourists , are actually this interemediate, between "gods" and men. Or at least they often play this role.

patterns of oppressive or at least hierarchy are evident in every group, even anarchist groups.

shamanism is the earliest religion, I am not saying every shaman or "shaman" is the most oppressive religious leader on earth,

but it can occur I am sure

hey remember that reports 'evil' shamans who are linked with tropane plants?

shamanism is the archetypical religion, where men could actually communicate with their gods.

PS: As for neonazism, I will certainly remember you didn't want to oppose to the nazi ideas or the nazi people between that nazi-gabba you linked.

[Quantum Future]

I definitely don't want to oppose, I try to live a life without polarity. I try to accept reality as it is and I know that I just spectate politics. I can't change the world myself, and I have my attitude to evil.

It's hard to describe any human as semi god. And I'm sure that we can juggle arguments forever and it's boring. It brings nothing new to the discussion.

I will remember that you judge so quickly ;-)

[mutant]

Its pretty interesting you said I judge fast but not wrong

I am an accute judge, and therefore willing to change opinion if I see new data

I will also remember that you also chickened out from the discussion from shamanism, when I mentioned that you dont wanna oppose to nazism

strange cause you seemed in a real mood for discussion on PM

So, next time I see ya, when I feel like informing the forum crowd you dont wanna oppose to nazism you can say I am a fast judge ;)

fuck trend of "shamanism" - fuck fascism - fuck authority

Edited April 23, 2014 by mutant

[Quantum Future]

I was in a mood for discussion on pm, but you cut it after first message calling me nazi friendly. Good that you have your fixed world, luckily for me, it's a bit more complex. Remember whatever you like. I don't want to oppose anything cause I try to understand every aspect of life. No polarity. Everything has its purpose in this world, something that happens is undeniable. I won't say you're a wrong judge, cause it's your judgement. It's good for you, unfair for me, but I'm not able to change your fixed point of view. I just feel a bit compassionate for you, cause you limit your world by seeing ideology as a fixed approach. Good luck brother!

[Quantum Future]

And funny enough - from me posting a nazi related music genre as the hardest I've heard and then explaining that I can understand why some people follow bad ideologies you've made me a forum nazi. It is insulting, I've never stated I'm nazi friendly. I have no interest in opposing anyone. Fortunately I know my world so I don't need to word wrestle with you, just stop the nazi talk, cause it becomes ridiculous and not essential at all. Any judgement is wrong in a grown up world mate.

Also that's why I PMed you. I thought you can be a good logical conversation partner. I wanted to keep our nazi-related struggle between you and me away from the forums, not to spam main screen. You just cut it by instant judgement. You did not even respect that it's a "Private Message" by taking it out to main conversation.

I'm chickening from bullshit, not from discussion. Also Shamanism discussion of ours brings nothing new, cause you've taken it to the subject "is power bringing a possibility to manipulate". It's not the core subject.

[mutant]

First things first

you are obviously chickening out from the discussion on shamanism!

Shamans had and still have influence and social power. But you say this is not the core of the discussion. Really? Why not, because its related with power? Because "you can understand why some people follow fear, lack of personal power and low emotions to build a society or ideology" ??? because when something is done its undeniable?

Someone asks what is the shamans responsibility. They must have some power and influence, and also knowledge, if we are to talk about their responsibility, no?

In any way, what is the core of the discussion? how I confused magus for shaman ? Cause you seemed pretty full on willing to discuss shamanism with me in your first post. What changed?

****

you dont want to oppose anything, you say.

Its strange to claim that verbally opposing to fascism (especially when suggesting a song which is extremely nazi-wing), is an ideology. You claim you dont like polarity but you placed me in some ideology in which, you claim, I am fixed. Really? What it that? I mean, my ideology?

You could say I am overly suspicious, and even not so polite with a new member, but I say I am rightlyfully suspicious when it comes to fascism and you saying

"I'm not nazi friendly, but I can understand why some people follow fear, lack of personal power and low emotions to build a society or ideology. It's not mine tho and you don't need to discriminate them as people even if you don't agree with their ideas and lifestyle."

you dont have to oppose to anything, but I can be suspicious, right? Its fascism we are talking about here, not mumbo jumbo

you claim you dont like to be polar and dont like polarity, so how come you know so much about the extremest forms of speeedcore and even knowing nazi-gabba acts from germany that even I (a huge fan of extreme music) did not know? How come a person who doesn't like polarity explore the extremest of political ideas?

.....

and as a final case....

if you dont wanna oppose fascist ideas, meaning you wanna be neutral towards them,

how come me thinking you are being suspect of being fascist tolerant is insulting?

What part exactly is insulting?

the point where I say you might be fascist?

the point where I say you are fascist tolerant?

or the point I say I suspect you of not being totally honest?

PS: On me supposedly not respecting the "holyness" of your PM, I never talked about the content of it, I just mentioned you pmed me. So no we keep the nazi bullshit PUBLIC

Edited April 24, 2014 by mutant