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DiscoStu

what's wrong with this world?

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Alright, I'll try to add something more constructive now. I agree with mutant, most people are not really insane - they are just so detached from reality that they might look that way to anyone who isn't. But to just say "oh, they're insane" seems to me to be an example of this same kind of detachment, just another way of saying "this problem is too hard, I don't want to think about it". Which is one way to cope, and I'm not in any position to be judging, but if you don't admit to yourself the foundations of these thoughts it seems like hypocrisy.

And back to the OP, well that's a tricky one isn't it? I've been reading a bunch of Kim Stanley Robinson lately, and he suggests that to fix our problems basically that scientists should be running the world. It might sound absurd at first glance, but he makes some excellent points:

*that our economics are totally flawed, supporting all kinds of parasitical "work" that distorts true monetary values. Using scientific principles to assign realistic values to things would allow for a fairer system, which we desperately need.

*that scientists stay away from politics largely just because this is what they have been trained to do. They have either been told "politics is boring, let's focus on real work" or "science has to remain pure", and they just accept that, without ever considering that the products of scientific work can have a massive impact on the world, and those decisions should not be made by profiteering barely-literate politicians!

*that climate changes could cause serious problems for us, and our profit-driven, infighting economy is not equipped to respond to that - we need a cooperative science-based international effort to have any chance at all of dealing with a major change.

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its surprising how emotive this issue is...................and it would probably take volumes to address it...............I threw of a few quick comments earlier in haste................but on reflection I stick by them....................we are all insane.....................

wiki's take.............

"Insanity, craziness or madness is a spectrum of behaviour's characterized by certain abnormal mental or behavioural patterns. Insanity may manifest as violations of societal norms, including a person becoming a danger to themselves or others"

the word 'spectrum' is important here not just for behaviour's........but in the context of time.............in an instant a thought rises and fades to be replaced by another sensation...............was that a moment of insanity?.....a chain of thought can be a period of insanity...............we surf in and out of insanity all the time......in fact we probably could not be sane with out doing so...................

It provides reference.........actions of insanity are where the problems begin...................to allow your anger or ignorance, fear lust, greed, what ever to affect another..........that's when insanity becomes the problem.......................we may like to think we are sane and them lot over there in the nut house are insane.....and perhaps that's "what's wrong with this world?"......................perhaps if we stepped back and look objectively at our actions......even on the mundane level...............then we all fit into wiki's definition of insanity.................its a total alice's wonderland here...............just consider the world issues Adonyne mentions above...............

As for scientist ......SERIOUSLY! :bootyshake: there are a few real scholars out there...............but generally they are an egotistical self absorbed bunch .....some real nasty pieces of work ....back biting... hen picking lot with poor social skills..............and the superman/genius scientist is a myth..............you build upon others work.............its all about team work......just look at Cern......................we are all in it together.......and as a monk once told me "every bodies shit stinks"

most people on this planet have a phone.................any laws... any decisions ...should and can now be made by each and every one of us....................we should all just have a pin number go online and vote on what ever issue concerns us.........and no law should exist if there are no victims........(victimless crime etc).......Shall we have a war today.....bomb drone someone....vote NO!.....................simple recipe for sanity .....let every one on this asylum VOTE!

Edited by Dreamwalker
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Ah fuck it, I can't argue this stuff properly - I'm a scientist not a politician godammit. :P

Yes, I've seen the problems you talk about with scientists - but I believe most of those are caused by the fact that money for science comes from people who want to make more money, not people who are interested in doing the right thing for other people or anything else on the planet. The entire apparatus is corrupt - every kind of manipulation you can think of abounds. But maybe remove that profit motive, replace it with a system which aims to improve conditions on earth using some kind of evidence-based work...then maybe we're in with a chance. Yes, scientists can be stupid and petty - but so can all people. And given the choice, I'd rather have someone who knows how to evaluate complex data running the show. Eventually, it'd be nice if we also had an education system that taught everyone this skill so that we could have the kind of ultra-democratic system you're talking about DW, but that is not in the interests of politicians, so it's hard to see how that will happen. Violent revolution I guess? Better go sharpen my machete.

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The "yeast in a jar" analogy is quite apt. We are a bit like the yeast, we have wiped out all competition for resources (except within ourselves) and we are going hell-for-leather for increasing (note INCREASING!) growth. Yeast on fucking steroids is what we are. Even sharks are considered lethal competition, despite the absurdly low death rates of the innumerable people who trespass in their realm. Our economy is based, rather bizarrely, as it turns out, on the atheistic Darwinsim "survival of the fittest" where social stability (in the form of the aptly titled socialism) is derided for it's ability to stabilise society and we are expected to fight everyone and everything else incessantly to attain more material wealth. Absurd, because it's the Christians who tend to worship mammon most aggressively. The weakest go to the wall in capitalism, starting with those who are unwilling or unable to fully interact with it, followed by those who make the attempt but realise it's a crock of shit and really would like the train to slow down a bit before the next station so that it may make the attempt to stop and take stock, while we have the insane driver cracking the whip and expecting everyone to burn more coal and make more steam just so we can fulfill his desperate addition to speed.

We are aping nature, that's all. If we had real intelligence, we would be able to understand balance and apply it effectively, but most people don't so we just act impulsively and according to intuition and don't really have the ability to look around and say "Hey, there's something a bit screwy here, let's have a think!"

Psychedelics open your mind to such things, they are the great teachers. But sometimes, the reality is too weird and it hurts. I find it difficult somedays to thank the universe for showing me such great and wondrous insights.

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some fast comments and I am outta here cause the sun is shining and all...

1. how will you solve "economy" with science, since economy is a non science.. heck marxism is a 'scientific' approach, so you see big influence on the economy?

2. Yeah scientists, where it most matters, are fucking sell-outs, they work for big companies not for humankind. They trying to find the littlest element in the cosmos, what the good in that?

3. With survival of the fittest at least we all start equal. This is survival of the richer, and this definately NON a social darwinism, only the other side of the ECONOMY coin.

4. What's wrong with the world. I think our big head is to blame. We got awful rich imagination. And we got some intellect to rationalize our darkest imaginations....

5. All seem to picture a drunk like an annoying alcoholic hobo character, but hey, a drunk is just someone who's drank a generous portion of alcohol.. If you really are having a problem with drunks, they people are you problem, not the drink. If you can find drunks enjoyable only when you're drunk, then you shouldn't drink.

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5. All seem to picture a drunk like an annoying alcoholic hobo character, but hey, a drunk is just someone who's drank a generous portion of alcohol.. If you really are having a problem with drunks, they people are you problem, not the drink. If you can find drunks enjoyable only when you're drunk, then you shouldn't drink.

not an annoying hobo character, just annoying. i've known some awesome 'hobo characters' most of them aren't drunks. i don't really have a 'problem' with drunks, but drunk people do tend to be annoying & daft & sometimes violent, but generally just annoying & daft. the biggest problem i have with alcohol as a drug is that i know & have known a number of people that i absolutely LOVE! that have had their lives completely destroyed as a result of alcohol dependance & i have watched them seriously mess up other peoples lives as well as my own because of their alcohol dependance. it's a complex issue & often alcoholism is merely a symptom of 'what is wrong with the world' & not the direct problem in & of itself.. with that said it's still a shitty drug if you ask me unless it's used intelligently, which lets face it, is quite rare..

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What's wrong with living under a rock for a while? Beats worrying yr self to death.

Besides I hear a lot of talk here but no solutions.

The problem with the world is humans. Too many bloody humans. I'd love to post some suggestions but the cynical would not be able to handle it.

Oh and Beck is being ironic (sorry you completely missed it).

It's called 'Social Commentary' http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_commentary

Edited by Halcyon Daze
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nothing wrong with rocks altho it can be hard to find a partner heh.

What kinds of solutions were you thinking of halcyon? some sort of asteroid perhaps? lol. I guess there is no clear cut answer or maybe there is and i have not the knowledge to comprehend hehe, not that i havent ruminated about possible outcomes although most of those dont seem all that positive destruction/creation etc

only if we could build some uber lightspeed type craft then pilot them whilst drinking fermented juices and find us a planet or ten to migrate too then we are talking :wacko:

and yes i do understand irony not that it makes me like becks tunes anymore sorry :wink:

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What kinds of solutions were you thinking of halcyon?

We need a 'Final Solution' (like the Nazis had) LOL

Maybe in the form of a virus. Then we could finally have the zombie apocalypse we've all been preparing for :uzi:

Edited by Halcyon Daze
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and yes i do understand irony not that it makes me like becks tunes anymore sorry :wink:

Fair enough :)

Edited by Halcyon Daze

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hey paradox

using alcohol 'intelligently' ? come on its a social lubricant, not astrophysics!

it definately has to do with each ones character, but in this recent crisis I am facing, it helped a lot in thinking completely different plans, irrelevant to the greenhouse. Thought was wild and it was a great help if you see a long term plan fall apart...

I find it almost funny than most in the community dont seem to like alcohol. One could suppose its for reason similar to yours paradox.

and sorry if that comment was a bit harsh, I've seen it too much blamed for what is actually a person behaviour and not a drugs...

I talk too much when I have drank, but I talk to much anywayz, lol

Edited by mutant

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also halcyon, on shutting off, some people cannot. my mother or my ex, boy they were champs at that. both scorpio btw.

but some cannot do it even if we wanted.

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each to their own hey man, i don't speak for anyone but me, it's just not my cup of tea.. i'm sitting here now drinking a cup of tea with a throbbing headache & feeling like a steamy old turd cause of the two 6packs i polished off lastnight, is such a beautiful morning too, but i'm about to go back to bed before i spew.. maybe people here react to alcohol so much just because it's so prevalent in the cultures that most of us are part of & theres a shit load of hypocrisy centered around alcohol as opposed to other drugs, maybe people just speak out against it in an attempt to balance the scales a little or something.

alcohol tends to retard brain function.. in other words it makes you more stupid, sometimes it's beneficial to be more stupid. using it intelligently just means to use it in those situations when being more stupid is appropriate. it's wishful thinking but i reckon we should do everything intelligently. you can take a shit intelligently (as opposed to stupidly).. don't shit in the water you drink, don't wipe your arse with stinging nettle, don't be a drunk idiot every day & ruin all your relationships & wreck your health.. thats all i mean. if alcohol has helped you with your recent problems then thats a smart way of using it isn't it? being intelligent about it would also just mean knowing where the line is so those beneficial effects don't lapse into negative effects which will fuck your shit up again.. it's bound to happen at some point as it does with any drug, thats why you need to try to be intelligent about it, so you can see where the line is & don't fuck everything up again. no drug is inherently bad but any drug can be if you can't see that line & have the brains to do something about it

it's complex & it's just a limited opinion but in a general way, stupidity, plain & simple is 'what is wrong with this world' so i prefer drugs that help make people more intelligent, theres enough stupidity as it is.. that doesn't mean that drugs that make you more stupid should be vilified. like i said drugs tat make you more stupid can be used intelligently

Edited by paradox
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alcohol isn't the problem, it simply reduces the boundaries which people put on their natural behaviour. people are dicks, that's the problem.

and i suppose that these "solutions" which invariably involve population reduction maybe those suggesting such things need to think through what it means. such a program will be handled by the state and who controls the state? who gets to decide who lives and who dies? such decisions will inevitably lie on socio-economic (and by implication racial) lines as those who need to be "euthanised"are those who are a burden economically - i.e. the lower classes. an interesting modern day comparison is Israel's forced sterilisation of african immigrants. besides, there's already enough money in the world to end global poverty, the only thing is the people with that sort of wealth don't want to release it. i'm convinced that it's more a status thing among richies, i mean who actually needs $50 billion?

.but generally they are an egotistical self absorbed bunch .

please regale us with your tales of self absorbed egotistical scientists? i'm sure you have a wealth of experience.

Edited by bot6

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I've struggled with adjusting to this society, however I've found that you create your own society. Your friends, family, the ones you love (and some internet forums).

The world will go on around you, unless you totally apply yourself to be in a position of power, there's nothing you can do.

That been said, we should take a page out of the French book of 'Democracy' and drag our ministers out of their offices and stomp (maybe not stomp, just a thorough talking to about our concerns) on them until they change their mind. Australians need to be more politically active, the people in power need to see us on the streets actually giving a fuck instead of posting about it on social media like i observe a lot of the time.....

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We need a 'Final Solution' (like the Nazis had) LOL

Maybe in the form of a virus. Then we could finally have the zombie apocalypse we've all been preparing for :uzi:

A virus that judges your intelligence and empathy and only the bad ones die?

maybe the people who want to survive are the ones willing to step over our brothers just to get there.

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please regale us with your tales of self absorbed egotistical scientists? i'm sure you have a wealth of experience.

daaaa...not sure if this is sarcasm............. :)

don't normally use usa based search engines...but goo has a counter ......"egotistical scientists" About 2,100 results

(0.22 seconds)
self absorbed egotistical scientists About 1,860,000 results
(0.34 seconds)
it would get really boring if I run up a long historical list.........and the list is almost endless.........they are easy to find....................the couple that pissed me and so many others off big time was the theft by Watson and Crick as one of my lecturer's put it 2 bustard drunkards.............
theft by Watson and Crick About 37,300 results
(0.32 seconds)
"Rosalind Franklin - smh.com.au
www.smh.com.au/articles/2002/11/01/1036027034461.html‎
Nov 2, 2002 - James Watson, above left, and Francis Crick weren't going to let Rosalind Franklin get in the way of ... These days I'd call it intellectual theft."

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Yeah, but are they any more egotistical than anyone else? My point was that social & environmental policies (not to mention research grants and pretty much everything else) should be based on, I dunno, maybe some kind of scientific evidence? And by "science" I don't mean "a blind faith in anything said by Richard Dawkins or my 1980's biology textbook" as some people seem to use the term, but rather an application of the scientific method to investigate and solve problems. "Science" in its most fundamental form isn't even the study of anything in particular, it's just a way of thinking. And then testing those thoughts to make sure they actually make sense, and then checking those tests to make sure they tested what you thought they tested, and then getting other people to check your results, and then getting other people to duplicate them... Hey, if you can find non-scientists to do all this, then that's great. As long as someone does it.

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you backup your criticism of scientific integrity with "just google it if you don't believe me",

well played.

Edited by bot6

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Richard Dawkins is a pretty good example of a self absorbed scientist. In theory the scientific method - evidence based hypothesis testing - is all well in good, however in practise it suffers from the presuppositions of the scientists who inevitably, as humans, have some agenda to fulfill. Don't get me wrong, I love science - I am a scientist - but it isn't some metatheory that is cure all for the worlds ills.

I think Anodyne what we want is rational and intelligent people calling the shots, not necessarily scientists. Surely non-scientists such as farmers and artists can contribute a lot to helping us create a better future? In fact I think what we need is a broad representative spectrum of people running the planet, not just people from a single class, so that we benefit from a range of opinions and interpretations.

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You don't have to be a "scientist' to operate in a scientific manner and most scientists aren't know-it-alls who want to call the shots. They aren't like that at all IME.

There are however, plenty of scientists who don't act scientifically... but their peers will soon point that out. And if there is a major dispute in their field, they're all usually very eager to get to the bottom of it, by testing each others work and theories etc. Plus scientists who operate out of their field cannot speak with any real authority any way.

They're welcome to take part in the discussion but their 'opinions' won't be taken with a lot of weight until they establish a solid reputation for themselves. Take that boggly-eyed Lord Monkton for example, we're still waiting for a single peer-reviewed scientific paper from that "Voice in the Wilderness".

So when it's done right, science is a powerful tool to help establish fact from fiction. But having a bias (or agenda to fill) is strictly contradictory to the 'Scientific Method', and would be firmly pointed out in any review /critique of the work.

Can science help us solve the world's problems?

Well, is it helping us fix climate change??? :scratchhead:

Who's game to answer that one.

I'm going back to my rock :P ZZzzz

Edited by Halcyon Daze
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Climate change is an interesting case in point. Scientists and engineering want to propose technological solutions to the problem, when maybe what is also needed a thoroughly untechnological solution such as a change in lifestyle and societal values. Some engineers have worked all their lives on high technology and now in the twilight of their careers can see the damage technological civilisation is doing to the planet and in response propose totally ridiculous solutions such artificial modification of the atmosphere to change its optical properties just because it is a solution that their tool set they have developed through their career enables them to come up with.

I guess it's fine that theories like this are out there, as hopefully the unworkable ones will be weeded out by peer review etc. however I feel that science itself needs to be peer reviewed by others external to it, otherwise we run the risk of pursing technological solutions to problems that technology created in a never ending cycle.

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you backup your criticism of scientific integrity with "just google it if you don't believe me",

well played.

I didn't realise we were playing a game...................so when is it my turn with your fem bot? :)

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Better to be mad with everyone than to

be sane all alone: so say the politicians.

if all are mad, you'll be ;equal to them.

and if you are alone sane, you'll be

taken for mad.

Baltasar Gracian 1601-1658

now here's a true story that happened to me.

I went into a bar one day to have a beer. as I sat down I over heard a contractor on his phone

getting all angry about some job that was not getting done on time. after the call he sat down

next to me, and we both ordered the same beer. ok after a giday, he started to ask me

a line of questions are you married, do you own a home, do I have a loan at a bank,

do I follow the cricket, do I follow the football. to all these questions I answered no.

he then looked at me with a puzzled look and said is there something wrong with you?

my jaw dropped just for a moment. my look of what the f__k, went to a smile, then to full blown laughter.

I stumbled of my chair like I had 10 beers and walked out the door sill laughing.

so what wrong with world......nothing its our brain.

http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/state-mind-psychology-control/

there is just 3 things that are needed to make us happy. good food, good shelter, and good friends.

Edited by lindsay
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Alcohol damages your brain and is a carcinogen of the magnitude of asbestos and tobacco.

The most intelligent way to use it is to not.

IMO alcohol is a MASSIVE part of what's wrong with this world, particularly in Australian culture.

Violence, cancer and shitloads of sugar: what's wrong with this world in a nutshell.

Please don't take time to comment on this simplistic post because I don't give a shit and won't read it anyway, but whenever alcohol comes up... you best believe I'm gunna have my two cents. THE most dangerous drug in our society today, when you factor in harm to the user and to those around them.

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