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mutant

How to recognize Trichocereus Terscheckii & Pasacana

Question

I wonder what would be the main characteristics of these fatty trichs, as well as other similar trichs of the fatty 'family'...

They grow more slowly than the fast growing trichs, I know that. They have more dense and long spination than pachanoi family. What else?

I am supposedly growing both species, so it should be fun :)

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i was just gna make a "how to recognise a Trichocereus pasacana" thread the other night

wanna do it mutey or shall I ?

oh yeah , while ya there... is escayachensis a synonym for taquimbo n tacaquirensis and some folks idea of werdermannianus?

was gna make one for those too, pending that

Edited by ☽Ţ ҉ĥϋηϠ₡яღ☯ॐ€ðяئॐ♡Pϟiℓℴϟℴ

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I leave it to EG. I personally think there should be a different thread for IDing taquimbalensis tacaquirensis and a different thread for IDing terscheckii and pasacana ... werdemanianus ... hmmm it needn't be in a thread title, I think.

other than that, open up a thread if you like mate!

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spot the terscheckii among the pasacanas!!!

P1120877.jpg

#1

P1120878.jpg

#2

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Hi Guys, just saw the Discussion about the Thread Title and if Werdermannianus should be split. Have renamed the Thread to Terscheckii/Pasacana and we´ll include the werdermannianus with Taquimbalensis. Not because they are the same but most Werdermannianus are in misidentified Taquimbalensis´.

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Hey EG, why not also pinning/sticking those two threads? There's also missing a scop sticky too!!

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Yeah will see if there is still some space left. Don´t want to have a Forum where the Top 20 Posts are stickied. Just pinned two of them but if we can make it fit, i´ll pin some more. Will have a closer look at them tomorrow.

Edited by Evil Genius
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gah! im stuck on tryna divide taquimbo from tacaquirensis

any prescedent on which one is which?

i.e. red/chocolate/grey spined ones

DSC00124.JPG

..... vs ......golden/lightbrowny/beige spined ones

i love the way these plants make ya think , just like really good friends :)

I can almost remember thinking that fat trichos all looked roughly the same :innocent_n:

here's a new plant I got today which i think is taquimbo (one on the right)

maybe its not spiny enough by the looks of some... also looks VERY close to my werdermannianus (one on the left) but has some distinct differences

DSC00107.JPG

and the tip

gallery_14443_734_234202.jpg

a night shotpost-14443-0-31403800-1421981197_thumb.j

Terraferma's friend's werder looks so much like the ones I see in Trucha's work labelled werdermannianus,

they have a pasacana type feel to the spination in my mind ..

but not the dimensions or colouring of pasacana so much

and they're definitely one of the finest heavily/beautifully spined werder' I ever did see

Rawrz! I gotta have one! :devil:

DSC00107.JPG

DSC00124.JPG

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Edited by ☽Ţ ҉ĥϋηϠ₡яღ☯ॐ€ðяئॐ♡Pϟiℓℴϟℴ
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hey are these tac/taq looking tall ones are rooted?

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yes,

all but the new hefty 'taquimbo' ...

I am hoping it roots as fast as the 'werdermannianus'

which rooted faster than a very heavy toboggan on a 45 degree soap slope

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gah! im stuck on tryna divide taquimbo from tacaquirensis

any prescedent on which one is which?

Hi Thunderhorse! Both are actually taquimbalensis. The tacaquirens has very thin needlelike golden spines and it has a lot more than taquimbalensis. Btw, that left plant in Post 134 looks like it might need a different soil. I would repot it and give it a good cactus soil with many nutrients. Otherwise you might lose it.

The large Ones are totally stunning! Great collection!

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Thanks EG

I already repotted it up one size to an 11litre pot just before winter , so half of it's media contains no nutrients at all currently.

I had anticipated the possibility of further repot to the next size up (18 litre) ... I guessed it would be about 1 year after...

but that's if I bother with the 18litre , I don't really want to though.

I have allowed it to dehydrate (probably over cautious but the plant is very special :wub: and im a noob)

after hearing of one being lost to cold damage , :scratchhead: i think it was either you or archea i may have heard that from .

and i had no clue this winter would be a very mild one before it happened, i was expecting -16C dips (like previous years)

and having to heat the sun room, ...

but as it turns out, I have only used the tortoise heater for 6 hours all winter :D

I won't be feeding it or doing anything at all to it again until winter is over, (had 330ml of 5x strength about a week or two ago)

nor will I be changing the kitty litter for "sciariad attractant soils" (seems like every soil here is one of them)

then i shall begin my (learned last year) 5-6x strength feed regime.

once i get more experience , I might see why youre suggesting that... but defo not touching it till spring

.... =] however.... I did very much enjoy following some of your advice on trichonet this last hour

post-14443-0-40222400-1422450728_thumb.j wish me luck, 'tis my very first graft =3

-had to use 4 toothpicks , she's such a fatty! , I will hunt some bamboo barbecue skewers and possibly re-impale her right the way through ;)

kinda feel bad for not following your advice on the soil , perhaps removing some media and adding a few inches of soil and then a lot more inches of kitty litter back to it , to fill...

and maybe a sprinkle of sand to close many of the gaps in the kitty litter above that soil.

Either way, I'm not shunning the advice, I just made a plan and stuck to it

-that seems to be working lovely so far, hopefully not deceptively though

still very grateful all the same and will take it into full consideration soon as spring kicks in properly

and @ Mutant, big hefty fatty still not rooted yet, maybe my region's lack of awesome sun power?

do you think it would it have rooted faster over there?

and i think i mightve fixed yowie x]

DSC00053.JPG

DSC00053.JPG

Edited by ☽Ţ ҉ĥϋηϠ₡яღ☯ॐ€ðяئॐ♡Pϟiℓℴϟℴ

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you grafted yowie on itself ?!? why?? did the cutting break??

on rooting time, I only did it during winter at home once... tricho cuts took 30+ days to root.. but I haven't rooted terscheckii/pasanacavalidus ... only taquimbo once which was fast too

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yeah it was cracketardo and had a tip toe

http://www.shaman-australis.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=29996&page=91#entry488278

dang you frget like me lol ,

I knew I identified with you from read'n your posts the last couple of years ,

but its nice to know its not just me who frgets things

anyhoo um .... something to get back on topic.... yeah

what is the fastest (say maybe in feet per year) a terscheckii can grow in your guy's experience? :innocent_n:

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gah! im stuck on tryna divide taquimbo from tacaquirensis

any prescedent on which one is which?

Hi Thunderhorse! Both are actually taquimbalensis. The tacaquirens has very thin needlelike golden spines and it has a lot more than taquimbalensis.

hmmm, just when i started to feel a little more confident toward pinning an 'understood ID' to these beauties! - lol

thank you for your patience and helping though :)

so .... for spination alone...

taquimbo = 2 forms -both having a downward strong central roughly 2-4cm in length

1. red/chocolate(greying with age and "re-reddening" upon contact with water), thick/stubby haw thorn/awl-like spination...

2. golden/light brown, haw thorn-like/thick awl-like spination, retaining features into age

- does this mean Trichocereus taquimbalensis subsp' tacaquirensis is bullshit and should be plain taquimbo?

did these get split apart into werdermannianus and taquimbo in past history?

-please let me know if that is a daft question - lol

I'm still lost on that beautiful long needle-like red/chocolatey .. heavily spined werder' of terraferma's friend's, too.

Or is that a tacaquirensis that looks very close to a werder - or vice versa?

-but with red/chocolatey spines instead of golden ones.... (just like the same pattern with the 2 taquimboes?)

and if the first two plants of taquimbalensis in the initial post can be 'boxed' into one name

and if like I guessed (above), the two tacaquirensis perhaps have been 'boxed' into one name also?

-the difference simply being spine colour ?

Also I don't like to think that my werdermannianus is not one; because it was the one I retina-burned into my memory as werdermannianus... but:-

I wonder,... Where does this leave werdermannianus?, x]

and does it also have a chocolate spined sister too? ;)~ (terraferma's friend's plant)

or is validus the light spined form? (i only guess this since more than a couple of areoles on my werder often remind me of neil logans validus ...and it has rounded/fat rib peaks with no sharp angles...which I gather is an important feature of validus )

- cept it's strong centrals are skyward, as opposed to unser validus...., and darker too (from what I've seen of validus)

if that ^^ is wrong, then could werdermannianus be more likened to a thinner pasacana , roughly?

For that matter, what about terscheckii? do they come in chocolate spines?

I can see it is definitely so already: on my own pasacanae :) , one clone with golden spines, one with chocolatey brown.

.....also with the thread name changing , ... is it, perhaps, possible to have a single thread for each fatty "species"?

(maybe the word "box" is a better word than species with regards to identification of trichoes?)

since this was the werdermannianus thread an all. (or at least it was when i first landed here :innocent_n: )

strange to imagine the plants 'boxed' in pairs lol

-but hey, can't blame a lad for trying.

-also , ya know how you said tacaquirensis were needle like spines , ....

Does that mean theyr'e usually a lot longer , than on a taquimbo?

Do they have any direction (left, right) to their pointing?

and on the subject of trajectory :-

Do they usually have downward pointing central spines like taquimbo too?

i think I see all the plants... just want to put "names to their faces" :)

one last question: Has one of the two forms of pasacana ever been named something other than pasacana?

and ok maybe i shouldnt say things like "one last question" :P

Is there a technical name for what Mutant calls "naughty spines" - which seem to be curly sometimes

or at least radically curved (If I have understood what he meant correctly)

Edited by ☽Ţ ҉ĥϋηϠ₡яღ☯ॐ€ðяئॐ♡Pϟiℓℴϟℴ

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Hi Thunderhorse, Trichocereus tacaquirensis is rather rare and is seldomly recognized as that. I googled the word and there were 99% taquimbalensis and the 1% were pics from far away. I took the time to scan a few images to make it easier for you to differentiate it from taquimbalensis.

It has many needlelike spines and there are a whole lot more spines. The whole plant looks mire like a tarijensis and is actually pretty different to the spines with the rounded base we know from taquimbalensis.

Check out these pics:

post-1140-0-66321400-1422517773_thumb.jp

Note that this has nothing in common with Taquimbalensis? This One has so many spines that it´s probably some kind of intermediate.

Here is a pic of the complete plant:

post-1140-0-37990200-1422518070_thumb.jp

And last but not least, here is a detailed comparison between the two varieties of taquimbalensis, oreocereus maximus and tacaquirensis.

a1. trichocereus taquimbalensis typus (top left)

a2. bottom left trichocereus taquimbalensis v. wilkae

b. oreocereus maxiumus

c. tacaquirensis

post-1140-0-75858700-1422518015_thumb.jp

Note how many spines tacaquirensis has? You hardly come across them on the open market though i have seed. If anyone has the option to grow this one with free rootrun, I am happy to send some seed. It´s a huge spiny monster and moving it is not an option. It makes absolutely no sense to grow this one and move it and out in summer.

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post-1140-0-37990200-1422518070_thumb.jpg

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goodness me thank you!!! that post :wub: feels awesome to read/see

and certainly helps a krillion toward my constant pondering over these "fats".

I very much appreciate that EG.

I can safely say I have NEVER seen a taquimbalensis before if that's what they look like!

and if I had, I probably wouldn't have known it

(in love already, reminds me of poco too - which i heard is synonym to tarijensis {which helped me tick two plants of the list for the price of one x] }

.. "the more ya know...." huh :)

*spends 6 days walking round the brim of the tacaquirensis crater that just impacted my brain* :lol:

I would love to grow 4 tacaquirensis in a permanant ground situation in the greenhouse,

but I do not really trust the greenhouses with anything much more than a money plant yet :P , let alone my beloved trichos

(considering our freak "once every 30 years" ice-blast, and the pests over here)

I got so far into insulating the GH last yr but fkd my back up in the meantime, leaving it incomplete..

maybe I'm worrying too much about cold since listening to too many uk cacteers, still?

and perhaps my collection would be fine in there temperature wise

but then , none of the GHs are very tall .. maybe 9 feet max (at the gable/roof arch)

wow a true monster ... B)

If only I could build(or have built) a 5/6 metre [17-20'] superdupa GH /eden project :drool2:

:rolleyes: one half: rainforest

the other half: sierra :P

Eden-Project-at-Night.jpg

this palm tree should be swapped for a tacaquirensible

Nick_Readers.jpg

Edited by ☽Ţ ҉ĥϋηϠ₡яღ☯ॐ€ðяئॐ♡Pϟiℓℴϟℴ
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so I gather it's pretty versatile threadmanship on the fats :innocent_n::scratchhead:

I will try to post plants/queries/pictures/info/etc that are: "topic relevant" to the thread title name, at the time of posting,

in the mean time.

:wink:

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You hardly come across them on the open market though i have seed.

Do you have the seeds of the 'real' tacaquirensis (like the one in your picture)? Because what you call T. taquimballensis, most people today refer to as T. tacaquirensis. And seed sellers also sell seeds of plants that you call taquimballensis under the name T. tacaquirensis. Cacti guide is usually a good source for current names, again under the name T. tacaquirensis there are pictures of what you call taquimballensis. I'm just saying, today under common usage, those two names have become synonymous, and it's probably impossible to find 'real' tacaquirensis from that book under that name.

I started two different T. tacaquirensis from succseed this year and plan to put them in the ground in a few years time, I believe they could survive my winters with some luck, this year I had several Pereskiopsis and Rhipsalis plants survive outside in the rain, and it has been a colder winter than usual.

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Hi Tangich, I bought two types of seed from one collector in Bolivia. One is Taquimbalensis and the other one came labeled Tacaquirensis. So since he also collected Taquimbalensis, the collector seemed to know how to differentiate the two. But that´s just my presumption and I didn´t grow the seeds out, so it´s very possible the tacaquirensis seed will in fact turn out to be a more or less typical Taquimbalensis. Maybe the one is the typical Taquimb and the other labeled as tacaqu is the taquimb var. wilkae, who knows. I really have no idea how the seed will turn out because I do not sow out those huge Trichos. Most seed on the market is labeled Taquimbalensis, what makes it even more ridiculous that the modern taxonomy has merged the two together into one species called tacaquirensis. Which is totally not correct because they are totally different.

Happy to send you some seed if i still have it. I gave one type away and am currently not sure which one i kept but i am pretty certain it was tacaquirensis. So yeah, will have a look later today.

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Thunderhorse, I don´t think that they would survive the european winter in an unheated greenhouse. I lost so many plants to frost when someone told me that the cacti could take it and I would like to spare you from this painful experience. Most plants are vulnerable to frost because they come from heated greenhouses and the moment you have them in a greenhouse the first time, they die. It is certainly possible to insulate a greenhouse and add a heater, but it requires very close control of the temperatures and if you have plants in the ground, it only takes a broken or misconfigured heater and your plant is gone. It´s possible to wrap the greenhouse but it requires skill and constant caution about the temperatures so I would only do that with smaller plants that can be brought into the house in case temps drop below the critical level. I totally stopped growing large columnar cacti because they simply need having a large rootstock and a healthy soil. It is a pain in the ass to move cacti of that size including a huge rootstock.

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guys they're supposed to be synonyms. For now I call the more plain form tacaquirensis and the wilkae subsp a taquimbalensis (as this is how they grew from seed named like that). I have actually grown one batch of taquimbalensis wilkae and one of tacaquirensis... But there are definately more strains/subsp than just these two... In my wilkae (EFI, but also the other two from the same batch) the spines are much more massive, very fat bases and pretty fat, when compared to the plain form (tacaquirensis) but then again I have seen wilkaes with lots more fatty spines... So its definately not one or two forms, and by the way, one of the 1.5 y.o. tacaquirensis I grew and sold had more reddish spines than the other ones..

So, they are fucking synonyms and that seems to be a consensus...

COLD: it must have to do with the low temps of winter and how many days they last each time.

I have left taquimb/tac at the roof during a couple winters - they seem to be hardier than pachanoi, I never noticed a scar from cold/frost so far..

PS: TH, man I am not that burnt out, but yeah I forget too.. But I didn't forget yowie was hit during transfer, I just didn't understand it was cut it two.. I thought it was just surface scars and I told you I thought its gonna be OK from what I saw.. Also if it was NOT cut in half, what's the point getting a 90cm cutting with flower buds which flowered last year for the purpose of having it flower soon (and pay for a 6 kilo package) and then cut it in two? Did you notice that old scar? well that trauma almost reached the core of the column, but it healed perfectly. even if half of the core of a column is damaged, if no rot ensues, it will heal and grow perfectly...

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i feel ya Mutant with the general concensus ... re- taca/taquimbo

i guess this comes with time at the hobby, I'm glad I just stuck to beginners plants like trichos.

It can be frustrating as a first time cacteer when 1 plant can go by so many names

combined with the odd asshole cactus vendor here n there

leaving folk confused and pissed off, I wonder how many more than me it happened to....

then the awesome cacteers get the splashback ... that sucks , but if it wasnt for them , I guess there would be less of them

so thank you both you guys.

But I do like that plant tacaquirensis in the black n white pics , looks like only a gnat could penetrate it's fortress of spines

and have been tryna retina burn the image into my head ..as tacaquirensis

but agree with you both and see both paths i think :)

and yeah the ice blast cycle here isnt fun and games lol , it often costs more than just plants lives too.

Edited by ☽Ţ ҉ĥϋηϠ₡яღ☯ॐ€ðяئॐ♡Pϟiℓℴϟℴ

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Hi EG, I would be very happy to grow those out, I'm a fan of anything huge and spiny! :) Thank you very much!

Mutant, are your taquimbos on the roof exposed to rain and do they mind wet roots over the winter? Do you get any nights under 0 C?

Btw, I'm also growing out the supposed 'T. escayachensis' from succseed, I guess that will also turn out very similar to taquimbalensis, but we'll see in a few months hopefully.

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Taxonomists argue about trichocereus Escayachensis. Probably because there are more than one plants with that label. The ones i saw were clearly Trichocereus Atacamensis but there are also Werdermannianus Plants with that label. And the werdermannianus is actually a variety or intermediate of Taquimbalensis and possibly Atacamensis. So it wouldn´t be surprising to see plants that look more like Taqu and some others that look more like Atacamensis at the same time. Wherever they grow in direct neighborhood, they hybridise with. So yeah, please share some pics of your plants when they are bigger.

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cool that saves me asking if atacamensis was the other pasacana clone lol

and Mutant , yes that scar , i get ya with them being able to take some damage and keep on pumping the growth if not severed.

Its on one of the slices i cut off before tryna regraft it,

i sure hope it works , it's slightly off centre nicely due to the scion being slightly thinner than the stock , so fingers x'd

Tangich that site is awesome , I didn't know they had a book too

it was there I first studied my ass off at cacti a few years ago

their tacaquirensis by EG's rule are all taquimbalensis as far as I can see, so long as I understood correctly.

but as far as general consensus goes , folk be usin em both synonymous anyway ,which like EG says, adds confusion.

I must say though , their dehydrated scop image threw me as a noob , and i have only seen one other scop that looks like it.

This could possibly be the source (or one of them) for the confusion in uk that a scop is a spineless pachanoi (lol)

since one of our only 2 decent tricho nurseries (cactusshopuk) sold me a scop as a spineless pach

and despite a bit of message sending over it with my re-iterating that it was a scop beyond all shadow of a fart x]

they seemed doubtful all the same ,

[were probably looking at that site since its so good and full of content]

=the other nursery (abbey brook) sold me a scop and told me it was a scop ... so I guess some people know deeper ? - or know the plants from flowering them, as opposed to using the seed-packet label...

and the issue may be the initial root point of their "plant name learning"

regardless of acceptance widely.

fun arent they B) these trickysaurus

Edited by ☽Ţ ҉ĥϋηϠ₡яღ☯ॐ€ðяئॐ♡Pϟiℓℴϟℴ

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