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trucha

How to recognize a macrogonus

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I was wondering what features can reliably recognize a macrogonus.

My personal opinion is that if it did not descend from the Berlin Botanical Gardens it can't really be proven to be a macrogonus and that the name and description should be chucked as invalid but that is hardly useful in the real world since so many macrogonuses exist out there that are reliably distinct from the peruvianus sorts.

Some people try to stuff a bunch of clearly peruvianus plants into it (which is clearly wrong since peruvianus branches can grow to around 15 or more feet and those of macrogonus only get to around 6 - sometimes a bit longer if jointed and prostrate)

Awlshaped spines, brown from the start, at least for a short while, seems the only unique thing in the description but this is not reliably true in the real world.

I'd love to hear opinions on how people recognize theirs. Not to find people to disagree with but to try and sort out what makes a macrogonus a macrogonus.

Edited by trucha
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RS004 may or may not all be synonyms with each other. I've been trying to get their source's ID rationale sorted out (Kakter is a good friend)

I have no doubt at all about your observation as I have seen it too on one single plant of mine but not on the rest of the RS004 I have growing which grow only varying colors of brown spines - occasionally with reddish on new ones.

One thing to keep in mind about what I am trying to do here is not to tell people what is or is not the absolute truth (since neither I nor anyone else knows that) but rather to stimulate thought, more critical questioning and the accumulation of careful observations in hopes that we can eventually acquire enough data to collectively reach a better understanding. In that process I will keep coming back to the original descriptions and playing the devil's advocate.

The conclusions we eventually reach about reality may be quite divergent from those descriptions but we need to keep those original descriptions as our base camp until managing to systematically explore the divergent environs adequately enough to learn what is divergent features and what are actually different plants offered under one name.

Two important questions we need to keep asking at this early point in that exploration is WHY are yellow spines an acceptable indicator of a macrogonus and where did those plants and their ID originate.

Those same two questions have been repeatedly raised in this thread but oddly neither one has ever been answered.

One horrible problem that comes up that should perhaps be kept in mind, not just true for me but for many growers I know, is that some people have the disturbing practice of either carelessly plucking the name tags from one plant and then dropping or sticking it into another one or in some cases maliciously switching plant labels around as some sort of prank.

This can cause a huge headache when plants can look similar or are just different clones of one species. This could easily have happened to some of those RS004 due to the insane extent of his collection, its large number of very similar appearring plants and its location being far away from where he lives. I have no proof this was involved of course but thought I should mention it as a possibility.

On more than one occasion I've watched kids deliberately doing switching tags in hardware store cactus and other plant displays and I have encountered it many times in my own collection (which is why a couple of years ago I started using a permanent marker to write a code number directly ON the cactus to indicate what they were (near the base and out of the sun and refreshed) but this only works if I remember to refresh it every year. Many times this is simple to spot and correct but that is not always true in which case those plants become meaningless for further study.

Its really crazy how often I have had this happen and there are a number of my plants from Knize and other sources that no longer have any trackability or meaning. I tend to give these away so they don't just add more confusion.

Just this last year I discovered someone had gone into one of my cactus gardens and pulled up their metal name tags anchored with long galvanized nails into the earth and had then switched them around on more than a dozen plants - yet again. Its hard to consider that simply a careless act. I now bury the metal tags.

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I have absolutely no idea where the yellow spines as an indication of a plant being T. macrogonus ever came from. T. chiloensis have yellow spines but we all know that it is not T. macrogonus. So therefore the matter of yellow spines would only be valuable in differentiating it from another plant that was similar in growth habit and column morphology, but which lacked yellow spines. So which plants are the yellow spines of T. macrogonus supposed to differentiate it from? T. peruvianus? Can T. peruvianus not have yellow spines?

I'm more inclined to saying that such and such are plants that came to me labeled as "T. macronogus" or somewhere along the line were possibly considered as "macrogonoid." And when others post photos of their plants that match these I simply say something along the lines of how their plants match what many consider to be along the lines of T. macrogonus. This is of course not to say that they are T. macrogonus as T. macrogonus is represented in the convoluted literature on the species. Personally I am not satisfied with the name at all, and like kt, consider it invalid, but that is not to say that using the name T. macrogonus to try and differentiate it from the Ecuador/Peru T. pachanoi and central Peru T. peruvianus isn't valuable.

As for helping retain tags on the proper plants you can tie a metal wire around the base of the plant which runs through a hole on the metal tag. I've seen this on cactus at a botanical conservancy before.

~Michael~

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Here is a picture of the"Osprey" Macrogonus .I actually got it in trade from Solaritea some years ago who was a member of Spiritplants.

he said he got it from a nursery in San Francisco.

I had a big one,but it got destroyed last winter when my greenhouse was crushed by a tree.

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I hesitate to pursue this RS topic in too much depth in this general macrogonus thread, but ... Kakster's correspondence with me a few years ago indicated that what he labeled as RS0004 was from a batch of plants that consisted of "about 3 different siblings from the same batch of seeds".

Of the several RS0004 cuttings I've received from him, there's been only one that varied considerably from the others. This misfit is very similar to the K1 peruvianus clone offered by SS. Compared to the other RS macros, maybe a bit more vibrant glaucous sky-blue skin, slightly broader ribs, and spines that are consistently yellow, never with the red to black tips that are always present on the predominant RS0004 phenotype under my conditions.

All the talk about species ID shouldn't be taken as more than it is, IMO. It's most valuable as as a set of descriptors that allow us to communicate effectively. The original description of a species may hold some kind of defining precedent, but it's just a description. Likely less than perfect, and focused on one plant or population under one set of conditions.

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I just spoke with him and learned that Kakster's macrogonuses largely originally came from a collector of macrogonus and similar cacti who was named Carlyle. (Kakster has an amazing plant collection.)

He does not have any solid data about the RS0004 farther back than buying that collection. The RS0004 predominated for him as sales stock due to its ease of propagation.

He holds a similar opinion that the whole picture is muddled at best.

A lot of his recognition criteria apparently came from that collection's specimens.

Kakster usually gives the best deals for the money out of anyone out there I think.

Any idea if the cactus place in SF was Red Desert? Vastly overpriced due to rent overhead but lots of nice plants.

Or if it was something a bit farther south on the Peninsula like cactus Gems?

One intriguing thing Evil Geniun encountered when trying to help me sort out what role Backeberg may or may not have played with regards to pachanoi was the belief that Backeberg did produce a macrogonusXpachanoi that was thought to still in cultivation. It has not been located but it gives me some pause for thought wondering what it would look like.

I've tried wiring metal tags to spines bases only to have them too moved around.

Fencing off my garden gave a huge help too although for some reason deer have acquired a taste for them as of a few days ago and started eating lots of my cactus spines and all. (after four winters without a nibble) I think they started with the Brugmansias last year when they learned to regulate their dosage.

Its crazy what they have demolished. One would think it would hurt?

I've seen the wire around the base used but also know of older collections using this where the tag is now inaccessible and only showing its tip after being over grown by the mother or else has many basal branches burying it completely. At least one huge garden with lots of Hutchison plants has almost no locateable tags at all.

Since I started lightly burying the tags I've ceased having troubles but obviously would run into trouble over time if I lived someplace cactus liked better. I'm now in a temperate rain forest where they stay healthy but very slow growing.

Detailed garden mapping is the best option I think. I have almost no container plants left compared to when I was in Texas as I have focused on creating beds the last few years. I think that I have maybe 5 cactus in pots left.

BTW I have used no winter protection with very little damage or loss so far (outside of the recent deer) This includes pachanoi and others with winter lows into the low 20s.(F) Colder last winter.

I expanded things this year so next winter will be an interesting test for a number of plants.

It does seem odd to thnk yellow spines would be used to differentiate macrogonus from others since so many others have yellow spines and entirely brown spines are one of the things used for differentiating macrogonus.

At risk of being the politically incorrect, I'd suggest bridgesii should be regarded as invalid due to lack of floral features and discussing a plant with muddled orign data (it was grandfathered in) ITs original appearance asa name seems to lack any description.

Pachanoi should be regarded as invalid due to lack of an adequate floristic description, a latin diagnostic and for it discussing a clear cultivar (it was grandfathered in)

same story for cuzcoensis except for the cultivar part

Peruvianus should be regarded as invalid due to having even less data (another grandfathering)

Not real useful of a view of course.

Macrogonus is also pretty bad of course. What appears to be the first mention of it did not even have a real description just the comment the spines were a dirty whitish with blackish tips although the term chosen often implies a bit of rust color in the black.

Still working on getting a translation up but its been a bit weird as I seem to have encountered some misspellings or typos that have left me scratching my head.

Edited by trucha

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A couple of errors I posted above. I need to stop relying on my overstressed memory right now I think.

Britton & Rose called the spines acicular (needleshaped) and discussed one central.

Backeberg called them subulate (awlshaped) - "pfriemlich" was the term he used actually but this is what it means. He also gave central spines as 1-3 not 1 as I had mistakenly recalled.

Both of those accounts though are as problematic as Schumann or Salm-Dyck's account.

Knize never published a description althought his plants appear to have yellow spine bases with dark tips.

Anderson is the first and so far as what I have seen the only person who says the spines can be yellowish. However he says yellowish to brown not yellow with brown tips. He also gives the spiens as needlelike not awlshaped so does not seem to be in agreement with the plants being presented here as macrogonus.

Anderson gives no indication of how he came to reach that conclusion, what population he based it on or how it came to be acceptable in hte description since he SEEMS to be the first person to use it. Like so many other cactus people he too is now dead so can't be asked.

Its fascinating how may people died within not many years (often within a decade but often even sooner) after publishing their largest works. I have to wonder if the immense stress of creating those books was involved or if people tend to write more when they get older or both? If people have never done a large book they may not realize just how much it takes out of a person to pull off.

I have yet to obtain Riccobono's account. Anyone out there have access to Boll. R. Ort. Bot. Palermo from 1909?

The first apperance of use of the name appears to be Cereus macrogonus Otto but this was apparently unpublished and lacking a descrption. It occurred at some point prior to 1840 as may have another version by Link & Otto prior to 1840 but I am unclear just what name Link & Otto used as I lack access to Stuedel 1840 at the moment.

Salm-Dyck gave his terse if not impoverished account in 1850.

Schumann published his schizoid expansion of Salm-Dyck's description not many years later.

It was apparently also discussed by Ruempler in Foerster's cactus handbook in 1885 (which I think that I have but have not yet managed to dig out of my files), again in Riccobono's 1909 account, then again in Britton & Rose in 1920, in Borg in 1937, in Backeberg in 1959 and again in 1964 before his death and repeated in the posthumous revisions that followed and was then translated into Engish, was renamed as an Echinopsis by Friedrich & Rowley in 1974 without further comment, was more recently discussed superficially by Anderson in 2001 and was last briefly mentioned in Hunt last year (2006) with a comment that its "modern" desriptions had diverged from the originals. Hunt never mentioned which modern accounts they referred to but did include the wisest annotation they could make - that being that the name would be best if abandoned.

While I agree with that I still think it is worth pursuing this topic due to it being represented in horticulture by more than one divergent offering we all know and love.

Edited by trucha

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So far as I can presently tell the macrogonus that look like those divergent ones (bright yellow with dark tips) have all come from one of three sources or from other sources that can have their offerings tracked back to one of these three sources.

1) Koehres' seed (who of course is a major supplier to people all over the planet and a truly great seed company)

or

2) Kakster's sales of the material he obtained from D. Carlyle who collected only plants that look like this (he bought all of Carlyle's plants - none of which had any origin data.) Carlyle was a collector of plants with this appearance. He was not a botanist and apparently grew no other cacti. He now apparently longer grows plants and does not want to communicate with anyone so it seems likely we will never know all of his sources although it is clear that some of his material was obtained from Cactus Gems who grew a number of their plants from Knize sourced seeds.

I am not offering this as any sort of criticism of Kakster as I respect him and his overall knowledge of cacti very much.

or

3) Knize's macrogonus seeds (knize has been selling seeds of cactus for 40 years now - since 1967- and is a major supplier of cactus seed dealers all over the planet. Macrogonus has been offered for sale by Knize at least as far back as the earliest catalog I have for him - 1982)

If I am wrong on this I would welcome being corrected.

Anderson is the only source in history who says yellowish is acceptable (not putting this into print until 2001) but does not say why or how he came to that conclusion or on what populations it was based or what criteria he used for recognizing them using a description that diverged from what had been published.

He also does not say yellow with brown tips but yellowish to brown spines which for a botanist is important as they choose their choice of color terms carefully.

Anderson also describes the spines as needlelike not awlshaped which conflicts with a number of the specimens being shown in assorted posts here as macrogonus.

I do respect a lot of Anderson's work but he was a specialist in small areas of the North American Cactaceae and not a generalized cactus specialist or a South American cactus specialist. Anderson's last work, despite its beauty and wealth of photos, had so many problems that few people take it too seriously (including most professional botanists I know or know of who have been harshly critical of it; including both Myron Kimnach and David Hunt)

It really sucks he died not too long after its publication as this has prevented anyone from getting answers to how he came up with a lot of his new ideations contained within it since he did not bother to give hints as to where they came from. As an example he gives 7 inches as the max for bridgesii expanding its range into Peru.

He does though have 2 nice pictures of pachanoi growing in South America neither of which have long spines. He repeats Br & R's description of the spines as being absent or present as spines up to 2 cm (0.8 inches)

So the question again comes up, how or why did yellow spines become acceptable for a macrogonus ID when no actual historical definition linked to any specimens (whether cultivated or wild) has ever said macrogonus had yellow spines with dark tips?

My suspicion has long been that we will find that Knize is behind the appearance of this altered description and this was recently strengthened by the confirmation by my friend Evil Genius who asked Koehres about their seed source for macrogonus and learned it was Knize.

Maybe it will someday be shown to be a macrogonus but the question still stands curiously unanswered by anyone why yellow spination is acceptable on a macrogonus?

It seems strange that this is accepted by anyone seemingly without any reason other than someone else telling them it was true.

It also seems strange to accept anything from Knize as being right if it diverges from the pubished description. He sells amazing plants and I am glad he exists but he is also one of the biggest three or four reasons for the problems we encounter in cactus taxonomy. ( I say three or four as Knize could be considered to be a major part of #2)

The other three being:

1) Inadequate and grandfathered descriptions

2) Misidentified plants being distributed by cactus growers and seed producers to people who trust their labels far more than is merited

3) The ready ease of hybridization and widespread existence of intermediates.

Knize has listed at least five macrogonus offerings:

KK923 from Cieneguillas, Bolivia 3000 m (listed in his 2004 listings although it appeared in his sales lists at least as far back as his 1982 seed listings. I lack anything older from Knize.)

KK1422 from Villa Abecia, Bolivia 2500 m (listed in his 2004 listing although given as 2800 m in his earlier field guide of his collection numbers. I lack an intact set of Knize literature so don't know when it first appeared.)

KK2151 from Ayacucho, Peru 2600 m (appearing in his 2004 listing)

KK2175 from Apurimac, Pachachaca, Peru 2000m (appearing in his 2004 listing)

KK2176 from Ayacucho, Peru 2600 m (appearing in his 2004 listing)

I have some newer seed listings sent by Knize but have not even looked at them yet

Perhaps this new definition will prove to be true when the genetice work ongoing in Zurich gets completed, released and independenty corroborated but I would suggest someone other than Knize should do some field work and determine what is real and not real before buying the new description based on Knize's word.

It would also be nice to track down the original macrogonus materials and find out whether they can produce yellow spines under some growth conditions and then try to link them with wild populations using genetic analysis.

The only solid conclusion that I want to make is that it seems a bit early to draw very many conclusions other than that one and perhaps Knize not being the best source for data.

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Here is a photo of what I presume is the same plant as I've found elsewhere. It's not in the same location so it's anyones guess how these plants get around.

I've always wanted to stick my head in this place and I'm very envious. It's got a 70's, hippy vibe about it and that could be the age of the garden. The yard has a nice canopy of tall thin trees to shield out the sun and provide shade and yet it is still bright enough to have built up understories of succulents. This place will laugh at the drought.

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Edited by strangebrew

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Some Macros from my Collection! Well, at least they´ve been labeled Macrogonus!

KARMA Macrogonus

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Tenebrae

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Einert

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Marcos Macro

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Edited by Evil Genius
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Plants like the ones I posted above also have a refusal to pup.

Whether I've rooted big pieces or small pieces I have yet to see one pup emerge, unless a plant has been cut or a tip has terminated growth, but from it's own accord - nada and I've been working with it for at least 3 years. I'm assuming they have to get to quite an old age (mature roots again?) to do so.

Edited by strangebrew
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just a quick note to say research with a plant thought to be macrogonus has reached me and appears to indicate an activity similar to bridgesii in potency and effect......with a slight qualitative difference[addition].

t s t .

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Here's the "Osprey" T macrogonus which he said above he got in trade from Solaritea. There is something I like about grainy 35mm photos.

~Michael~

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Here's the "Osprey" T macrogonus which he said above he got in trade from Solaritea. There is something I like about grainy 35mm photos.

~Michael~

How's your thinking on this one...

Id'd as macro when purchased (before cutting):

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Today:

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Much more typical of peruvianus now isn't it.

I'm finding that plants that look similar to what yours did when you first got it can change quite dramatically given a change of soil and especially when grown in full sun. SAB's "Clym" is a case in point which was sold as macrogonus. It looked very similar and continued along in pretty much the same way when grown in morning sun for a couple of years, with small dark spines that soon turned grey except that the skin got very white and beautiful.

Now I've been growing one in full sun for a while and it's really starting to change, throwing out knarly yellow based spines over an inch long at the tip, along with big furry areoles.

Yet some plants don't seem to differ that much given a change of conditions. The photo of a peruvianus I posted in the peruvianus thread was growing in shade all day, in competition with other succulents crowded into the same rootbound pot yet it still looks quite typical.

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bit, either picture wouldn't lead me to call it T. macrogonus, but that is because I don't consider the name valid. Certainly I've posted "T. macrogonus," but usually I keep the tagged names on my plants. Truly though, there are all sorts of plants on the spectrum between T. pachanoi (non-"PC" sorts) and T. peruvianus (non-T. cuzcoensis sorts) and there is little doubt that to see them we could probably refer to most of them as T. macrogonus, but that doesn't say or mean a damn thing besides their fitting a certain description of which we have assumed defines the species. Among this sort of plant I'm inclined to support a single species, either T. pachanoi or T. peruvianus, and consider all others simply subspecies or variations.

As it stands now bit, I'd say your plant was T. peruvianus.

~Michael~

Edited by M S Smith

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Among this sort of plant I'm inclined to support a single species, either T. pachanoi or T. peruvianus, and consider all others simply subspecies or variations.

Hmm...really?

I would consider T. peruvianus and T. pachanoi to both be distict.

T. marcogonus = T. peruvianus

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Hmm...really?

I would consider T. peruvianus and T. pachanoi to both be distict.

T. marcogonus = T. peruvianus

T. peruvianus and T. pachanoi aren't distinct enough from each other to truly regard them as independent species. I have no difficulty using the current conventional names to define them for our common understanding, but from a botanical perspective the flowers don't differ enough (flowers being the basis of determining species). Call them what you like so that we can know we are talking about different plants bearing different morphological traits, but at the more academic level they would be seen as a single species. For example, if you took one flower each from two of the most divergent plants, let's say a quite spineless T. pachanoi from Ecuador, and then a flower from the spiney T. peruvianus from Matucana, Peru (al la IcarosDNA), and asked a botanists to examine the two flowers by disection he would, I have little doubt, determine them to be of the same species.

Most of the plants we call T. macrogonus can certainly be better understood under the name T. peruvianus (or even T. pachanoi depending on degrees of spination in my opinion). As I've said before, I think the name T. macrogonus has become a catch-all for most of the plants that run intermediary between those we recognize as T. pachanoi (Ecuador/Peru) and T. peruvianus (Matucana, i.e., Icaros DNA). The fact is with all the hybrids coming out of T. pachanoi or T. peruvianus forms, or plants which florally are the same species, there will be loads of different plants known as T. macrogonus once the lables are lost. This of course when they are all the same species. Most of these "hybrids" aren't really hybrids as they are made among morphological variations of a single species, which thereby doesn't make them hybrids, but rather cultivars.

~Michael~

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The only other Trichocereus I have seen which has that downward turn at the base of the central spine is T. bridgesii. The areoles and general spine lay-out look like T. peruvianus. The rib formation also looks like a nice mix of the two. Maybe a hybrid of T. bridgesii and T. peruvianus...um...or rather a cultivar if following the more botanical aspects I brought up above. I like that plant A LOT!

~Michael~

Edited by M S Smith

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Yeah it's a sweet looking plant, very slow growing and flavourless but. I'd love to see a picture of a mature, well grown specimen. I'd also like to see what the plants Evil Genius posted look like when they're grown out.

Just for arguments sake re Ospreys plant from Solaritea, why would that have been called macrogonus instead of peruvianus in the first place? It appears to have multiple centrals in some places. What distinguishes it from your more typical peruvianus? Yellow spines?

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Having grown out Osprey's(Solaritea's)mac clone to a decent size,I can say it is certainly distint from any peruvianus I've grown out.

The number of ribs and the curvature of the spines is what helps seperate macrogonus and peruvianus for me.

I have yet to see a peruvianus with curved spines.Yet every plant I encounter under the name Macrogonus has curved spines,even if its subtle.

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Spunwhil. could you show us some pics? to explain what you mean?

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As promised a while back I finally got some photos uploaded of the German macrogonus material that a friend sourced from a old-time commercial grower in Germany who said it was descended from the old German macrogonus in the Berlin gardens.

Apparently this is now mostly propagated for grafting stock.

Also posted is a couple of photos of older growth of the same material that a friend obtained from Gerhard Koehres.

See

http://trout.yage.net/sc/T_macrogonus_Germ...us_Germany.html

Follow the links to page 4 of the Trichocereus List and you can now find Salm-Dyck's and Riccobono's descriptions posted verbatim although it SEEMS like it was Salm-Dyck who wrote Riccobono's description and Otto wrote the description in Salm-Dyck. Go figure.

I agree that the plants showing a wealth of yellow spines with dark tips are beautiful but I think Knize is not a good one to rely on for ID.

I wish I had more time but thought I should post this.

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