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Acacia Phlebophylla DMT

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At an event recently a friend of a friend was offered some high purity DMT extracted from Acacia Phlebophylla. The friend of a friend declined the offer.

I was wondering has anyone actually had any success growing this wattle and if not what are peoples thoughts on harvesting it?

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There is said to be DMT in the leaf. but harvesting this plant in the wild is a big NO NO. its a protected and endangered species so grow it in your yard. do Australia a favour.

I myself dont grow acacia right now but when i had a few ive found them to be pretty easy to grow and keep happy, tho ive never grown this species.

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I hear it is notoriously hard to grow anywhere but the micro-climate, an alpine habitat it already exists in.

plants will survive a few years and die I have heard?

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There is said to be DMT in the leaf.

From what I have heard at the right time of year, the phyllodes that have fallen from the trees can be smoked alone\crudely extracted\brewed etc... to achieve active effects due to such high concentrations found within the plant material, but I agree that any live harvesting that would cause damage to the plant is definitely a big no no. Based on what some friends have said, this is perhaps the most sacred entheogen Australia has - shown even by it's traditional indigenous regard and useage, and also as mentioned above one of the contributing factors to the rarity is it's ability to really only survive in it's own unique environment.

But hey, if you can get a cutting and keep it alive - go for it, but I know for certain there is no way in hell it could survive where I live.

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After the fires there were people who collected a LOT of bark and phyllodes from trees that had died after the fires, and did whatever they did with it... And before the fires there were more than just a very quite conscious people who did make DMT from phlebophylla.

But at this point, there are so few trees and they are all juveniles, actually taking phyllodes from the trees is not at all viable!

Taking Phyllodes off the ground that have fallen off the tree is borderline behaviour... because for one thing, you may be carrying a fungas from tree to tree which is carried by humans which killed a lot of the trees before the fires got to them!

BUT, this is more material to make a brew with... and making DMT from phlebophylla at this point seems quite wasteful and unecessary when there are other species not so sensitive and protected.

Acacia Obtusifolia is a tree found right up and down the east coast of Australia... and although, not really present in Victoria in any significant numbers, is found right and up down the south coast below Sydney to the victorian border, often in very abundant numbers...

Phleb seeds and cuttings will not grow, except on Mt Buffallo and by very advanced horticulturalist who live in the right altitude and environment it seems!

Julian.

From what I have heard at the right time of year, the phyllodes that have fallen from the trees can be smoked alone\crudely extracted\brewed etc... to achieve active effects due to such high concentrations found within the plant material, but I agree that any live harvesting that would cause damage to the plant is definitely a big no no. Based on what some friends have said, this is perhaps the most sacred entheogen Australia has - shown even by it's traditional indigenous regard and useage, and also as mentioned above one of the contributing factors to the rarity is it's ability to really only survive in it's own unique environment.

But hey, if you can get a cutting and keep it alive - go for it, but I know for certain there is no way in hell it could survive where I live.

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Thanks for clearing that up...

Just out of curiosity Julian, would you have any documents or just bits of basic information on the traditional useage history of phlebophylla??? I have only been told bits and pieces about it.

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hey

i think one of the reasons the gall got so bad before the fire is because people just rip phyllodes off, leaving the stem open to insect attack..its common for acacia to have gall and regurlar fire wound have cleaned things up sooner, but humans helped let the insects in!!

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hey

i think one of the reasons the gall got so bad before the fire is because people just rip phyllodes off, leaving the stem open to insect attack..its common for acacia to have gall and regurlar fire wound have cleaned things up sooner, but humans helped let the insects in!!

Why are people too lazy to use clean secateurs??? :ana:

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.

Edited by inpsyght

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It disgusts me no end that supposedly 'enlightened' peeps think that they have the right to harvest an endangered species.

Agree wholeheartedly. It's poaching of the worst kind. If this was a cute furry mammal instead of a tree, more people would be up in arms.

Sort of undermines the whole DMT spirituality and reduces it to simple psychological drug addiction and/or monetary greed.

Nah, its just delusional self aggrandisement.

And before the fires there were more than just a very quite conscious people who did make DMT from phlebophylla.

Conscious of WHAT, prey tell?

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The people I spoke who have harvested phyllodes from the trees, seemed to be filled with inordinate respect for the trees.... and took the tree on face value in its situation and most would probably be as concerned, if not more concerned about the trees situation because of a familarity and understanding of their immense value than the average entho head... and I would say they were conscious in that they were and are fully aware of the issues related to this plant according to the information they have available to them.

I am aware of more than a few people who WERE harvesting small amounts for brews here and there...over many years often. And these people I would say represent the people who know most about the plant, who have quite extensively researched its properties and qualities and human usage. And I am aware that at least one of these people has successfully grown a decent amount of trees which seem to be doing well in a location in North eastern victoria...

HOWEVER, there have been people going up to Mt Buffalo to simply collect material to make DMT with... without much respect or care for the trees, with a pronounced self interest... I am aware that a couple of guys in a van were actually found by some park rangers and prosecuted for what they did (like backing their van into a small tree on the side of the road and pruning it!) I don't know what they outcome was... but one can't imagine it was in their favour!

Julian.

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Once again Julian, as I know you are highly educated on these matters, do you have any information you can share with me on the traditional indigenous useage of A. phlebophylla???

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Legitimizing the ripping-off of phlebs by "concerned" people as opposed to those who have no "respect"?

Seems to me that a Gander of Concerned's could cause a field's-worth more damage than the odd lone ranger.

The whole idea is just plain hypocritical.

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Massive storms through the high-country trashed an enormous amount of trees a few months ago. On a recent trip I'd say a good half of the tracks were closed from tree-falls.

Whilst wattles are more storm-resistant, I saw many completely flattened or with significant damage to them from trees falling on them.

By now any wounding would have healed, and the dead easily distinguished from the damaged.

This would seem an ideal opportunity for low-impact harvesting.

Whilst making no claims as to my acacia identifying skills, I find it hard to believe that these only grow in such a small area. There is an enormous amount of mountain range at the same altitude in sight of Mt Buller, most of which is inaccessable except by foot. And it's hard yakka (I hunted sambar in these hills for years). The amount of effort and equipment required would deter all but the most sincere. I'd think it fair to assume that anyone willing to put in such effort would respect the plant. The carry-out factor is just too great.

I'd suspect that it's more widespread, just not officially found. On this basis, I doubt it's as close to extinction than as some people think.

Not that I'm in any way condoning the harvesting of wild trees. I've never taken even a cutting from the bush acaia-wise myself, but can't see any problem with the removal of dead-fall.

Plenty of grow-at-home sources if you like that sort of thing.

ed

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heh, not highly educated... I just keep my ear to the ground!

A good friend of mine, came into contact with some aboriginal people who associate with the Mt Buffalo region... what they told him is that Mt Buffalo was like a meeting place for the various tribal nations, who would travel up to feast yearly on the bogong moths(I think it was!)

And he was told that they used big turtle shells as a receptacle pot (an item that was traded around Australia apparently!), for boiling up plant medicines... which they discovered up there...

Europeans reported that Aboriginals who travelled up Mt Buffalo at that time of year were sallow and thin and came down the a few weaks later mountain healthy, plump and with oily skin!

So it appeared this was like a mens business, meeting, gathering place... whether they used phlebophylla or not is uncertain... I've heard similar things about another mountain from an aboriginal park ranger where tryptamine bearing plants grow in abundance, and he told me this because he saw me collect a small sample of plant material on that mountain! (which he seemed pretty cool with actually!)

And I was told by him medicine men use plants from this mountain for shamanic purposes...and tribal gatherings.

I would have been told dozen of anecdotal stories such as this by very reliable sources!

Julian.

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And he was told that they used big turtle shells as a receptacle pot (an item that was traded around Australia apparently!), for boiling up plant medicines... which they discovered up there...

As much as I want to believe aboriginals utilised tryptamines, I simply don't think this is very likely. DMT itself is of little use unless combined with a MAOI or extracted into a resin. This would probably require boiling (as indicated above), but as far as I was aware the concept of boiling in vessels was not known to aboriginals before the invasion. Phlebo leaves certainly provide a small buzz when smoked and this is a much more likely scenario.

One of the problems with all this is the temptation to rewrite history on both sides. Whities desperately want to back up their own tryptamine use with the stamp of approval that comes from 'traditional use'. Some aboriginals will also find that feeding such information to the right people will elevate their own standing. A similar thing happened in NNSW a few years ago. Where the collision of hippy and aboriginal stoners one day resulted in the statement "but we've been doing this for thousands of years". Everyone was thrilled and no one bothered to question the vaolidity of it, even though there was simply no practical means that extraction of acacia resins could have been achieved. Soon after this Julian came along and unaware of the dodgy source of this information started evangelising it. Now, 5 years later tryptamine use by aboriginals is regarded as a given fact even though still no one has addressed the contradictions of it.

An aboriginal person who has recently started consuming tryptamines should not be the pillar for us to believe in thousands of years of safe traditional use. Another problem is that because of the disrupted social structure of the aboriginal community it is often difficult to know who is credible and who isn't. I've had a few people myself tell me all their tribal credentials only to find out that they were full of shit. Sadly, people of all colours have the tendency to make themselves look more important than they are, and certain ones will soon learn to feed off the attention given to them by those who get to hear what they want to hear. Unless we get some compelling evidence from respected elders who have known about the processes for much of their lives, I would treat such discoveries with a large pinch of salt.

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Soon after this Julian came along and unaware of the dodgy source of this information started evangelising it
Can't think what information you are talking of Torsten!

I remember one person telling me a story where a friend of theirs hassled some aboriginal elders about this topic and asked them repeatedly, "do you use plant tryptamines?" and they said "no!" and a bart simpson dialogue occurred where they repeated this question many times... and the aboriginal person continued to say "no!" until they gave up and said "What do you think?"

I may have told this to 2-3 people max! And a few other little interesting anecdotes I knew of at the time...but that's it.

DMT itself is of little use unless combined with a MAOI or extracted into a resin.

MAOI's are probably overated as a way to get tryptamines to pass the blood blain barrier... there may be other ways we don't know about! And can we yet preclude the existence of native Australian MAOI'S?

Certainly, Mimosa Hostilis can be ingested without an MAOI (if you believe Trout and Ott's reports!)... so I think there are many unknowns in this area.

Now, 5 years later tryptamine use by aboriginals is regarded as a given fact even though still no one has addressed the contradictions of it.
I don't regard it as "fact", it just seems to me, putting all the pieces together of stories such as the one above... extremely likely that they did actually use tryptamines and other psychoactive plant compounds...

This aboriginal ranger wasn't out to impress me I don't think! He was just matter of fact, the medicine men use plants on that particular mountain for ceremonies...

Unless we get some compelling evidence from respected elders who have known about the processes for much of their lives, I would treat such discoveries with a large pinch of salt.

I don't think there are yet any discoveries on this topic per se... and I would agree that all the little pieces of anecdotal information would need to be confirmed in some way by elders... but you see it seems they are not allowed to speak on such subjects... I am told that the debate within the aboriginal community is whether to release such information or not... there are apparently two factions, those who believe we are all going down and so why not share what we know? and those who say, we are all going down, why bother sharing with whitey who has already fucked us up and only likely to abuse what we tell them anyway?

This is what I am told anyway...

I have had a couple of people being guided to come to me and tell me certain things, information which is not supposed to be shared or spoken about outside of the context of secret business... and I have seen people basically quake with fear at the thought of breaking tribal law and fear of repurcussions if people found out this information was being passed on... (and been shown spear marks!)

So I am personally aware that usage of certain psychoactive plant knowledge is VERY advanced in certain parts of Australia... and I don't doubt that the veractiy of this sharing.... due to the nature of the physical and spiritual warrior nature of one extremely sincere individual in particular...due to that they described plants to me, preparational methods and effects of such plants in certain parts of Australia... (which are seemingly much stronger than anything we know as "whitey"!)

I have also been told of the use of psychoactive plant usage by white people who managed to convince the locals they were up to scratch! (not a real easy task it seems!)

And it seems there are many people in relatively mainstream Australia who know about such things... but it is a somewhat delicate area to say the least!

Julian.

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Can't think what information you are talking of Torsten!

You wrote about it on the forums at the time. It was when you were intending on writing a book on tryptamines and ...., sorry, details a bit sketchy, but you were writing it on your lap top and you were spending a lot of time in Nimbin at that stage. Anyway, I'll have a look for it. Although, it's really not that important and I am surprised that you don't remember as it also featured in some private discussions between you and other people (possibly even at EB2).

MAOI's are probably overated as a way to get tryptamines to pass the blood blain barrier... there may be other ways we don't know about! And can we yet preclude the existence of native Australian MAOI'S?

I don't think they are overrated as they are certainly the best way to achieve this. However, yes, I agree that there are other ways probably. Jurema wine is the typical and only example of this and it is still a little vague.

extremely likely that they did actually use tryptamines and other psychoactive plant compounds...

I am convinced they used many psychoactive plants. You are probably aware of my pituri theory, which indicates some pretty serious altered states. I am also sure that various indoles were utilised. But I am very sceptical of the use of simple tryptamines, ie DMT in particular.

This aboriginal ranger wasn't out to impress me I don't think! He was just matter of fact, the medicine men use plants on that particular mountain for ceremonies...

I certainly believe that. I think psychoactive plant use was very widespread. I mean, if it wasn't then australian aboriginals would be the only aboriginal society that did not make use of plant drugs and that just seems unlikely. But just because we only know of tryptamines on that mountain we should not draw the conclusion that tryptamines were the substances he was referring to.

...would need to be confirmed in some way by elders... but you see it seems they are not allowed to speak on such subjects... I am told that the debate within the aboriginal community is whether to release such information or not... there are apparently two factions, those who believe we are all going down and so why not share what we know? and those who say, we are all going down, why bother sharing with whitey who has already fucked us up and only likely to abuse what we tell them anyway?

Yep, well aware of that situation. And who can blame them....

I have also been told of the use of psychoactive plant usage by white people who managed to convince the locals they were up to scratch! (not a real easy task it seems!)

Once a white person has made it that far he is also unlikely to betray that trust, so it really doesn't help us in any way.

And it seems there are many people in relatively mainstream Australia who know about such things... but it is a somewhat delicate area to say the least!

That's the thing that gets me. The intersection of aboriginal and white folks is mostly in redneck towns where admission of any drug use (by anyone) would be problematic and ultimately detrimental to the aboriginals - especially because of their close association with the christian churches. That's why I had high hopes for more of such dialogue in places like around here, where such revelations would be held in high esteem. Interestingly, ritual plant use in certain areas may well form the basis for native title claims as it demonstrates a continuous connection to the land. Somehow I don't think the judiciary is quite ready for that angle though.

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I am convinced they used many psychoactive plants. You are probably aware of my pituri theory, which indicates some pretty serious altered states. I am also sure that various indoles were utilised. But I am very sceptical of the use of simple tryptamines, ie DMT in particular.

I don't mean to hijack but i'm intrigued as to what your theory on pituri is, have you got anything written up in the forums anywhere?

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I may have told this to 2-3 people max! And a few other little interesting anecdotes I knew of at the time...but that's it.

MAOI's are probably overated as a way to get tryptamines to pass the blood blain barrier... there may be other ways we don't know about! And can we yet preclude the existence of native Australian MAOI'S?

Julian.

I have a reference for tetrahydoharman from an oz native, not being up on my harmaline/harmine knowledge, can this be used as a MAOI?

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on a bit of a tangent here...but this occurred to me the other day after a friend was telling me about a dragon she saw that was long, cylindrical, multi-coloured and 'feathery'. Made me think of the rainbow serpent, then Quetzlcoatl, the feathered serpert god. Just a thought

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on a bit of a tangent here...but this occurred to me the other day after a friend was telling me about a dragon she saw that was long, cylindrical, multi-coloured and 'feathery'. Made me think of the rainbow serpent, then Quetzlcoatl, the feathered serpert god. Just a thought

I was watching that Shamans of the Amazon documentary yesterday and thought of the serpent or anaconda thing in relation to the Rainbow Serpent as well.

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I don't mean to hijack but i'm intrigued as to what your theory on pituri is, have you got anything written up in the forums anywhere?

no. it's just a theory and I am not putting it into writing until I have a bit more proof. I do discuss it at conferences and meetings though.

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I have a reference for tetrahydoharman from an oz native, not being up on my harmaline/harmine knowledge, can this be used as a MAOI?

It may, but only at large doses. I think the maximum I tried was 500mg (ex A.complanata) and this provided no noticable MAO inhibition. It also had no noticable toxic effect and it instantly fixed a severe headache at the time (possibly by reducing blood pressure).

There are plenty of the more active MAOI harmala alkaloids in the australian flora. There is even a potent native MAOI growing in the pituri desert area.

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i have recently returned from an event where i met a very keen yet un-educated person whom intended to travel from the event to mount buffallo in order to poach the said plant.... i spent as much time trying to tlk him round as was possible and even did a little bit of bribing, but it seems he was adament on approaching the mountain the following day to harvest what he called the buffallophylla...

It seems many people (whities/westeners/ethnobotanists/amateurs) just DONT GET IT in regards to this plant and the relevence of its survival on all different levels..

Having been concieved, born, and for the innocent years, bred, at the very base of this mountain and having spent much of my childhood amongst the phlebophylla, i feel a very personal connection to this situation.

However it is an incredibly difficult and complex problem and approaching it on the right level requires a hell of a lot from anyone who thinks they may be up for it....

without saying too much, i agree wholeheartedly with most of what has been said above, and am adament that this debate will continue until the appropriate information is collated and presented to the community, and all perspectives have been thoroughly explored, all information extrapollated, and all parties thoroughly consorted..

Yes this plant is in an incredibly vulnerable situation, yes it is possible that this last generation brought on by the fire could be the last, and yes it is possible that any form of human presence on the mountain and amongst the population could swing the balance either way...What is important is that we continue to speak out against harvesting OF ANY KIND until the relevent populations have been established by people who have the means....It is also important that anyone wishing to access the 'sacred space' of dmt do so via viable mechanisms provided by other healthy populations of native plants...

Having spent much time up the mountain the last few years and in particular this last month it is evident that there is very very few mature specimens who have survived this last season..As yet i have not seen ANY flowers or seeding, which is quite scary, although further exploration is needed before i can comment on the validity of these observations...

We are currently in the process of trying to approach national parks, rmit and aboriginal elders in a formal manner in order to begin the process of research on the ecology, biology and ethnobotany of this plant and also this region, however it is an extremely delicate and difficult task which often has us questioning whether we even have the means of fulfilling the difficult communicative problems arising with the politics of this situation let alone beginning field work.

At the moment we would ask anyone with relevent contacts within the field to contact us via the forums and anyone who wishes to help later on the line, join us as Friends of Phlleb, a volunteer group currently in the administrative process.... We are most likely recieving funding from an international research fund, however any letters of reference and contacts are dearly needed in order to secur this funding and make the Friends of Phlleb and our proposed reasearch mission a go ahead...

Science, folklore and rumour asside, this plant is symbolical of an ongoing process of re-integration, assimilation, reconcilliation and 'healing' that is/needs to occurr in australia if we as a community and also a nation are to save the sacred information contained within the land, and its traditional inhabitants...

thats just my POV anyhow.... anyone wishing to help pls contact us on the forums for further information.

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