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20 hours ago, Wile E. Peyote said:

If you're convinced the current COVID-19 vaccination options aren't good for your health and you don't trust mainstream media or government communications as a source of information on the issue, try speaking to a health practitioner or a scientist, or try reading relevant health and science publications. If you don't trust these sources, I would ask you to look critically at the sources you do trust.

Vaccination is one strategy for dealing with viral outbreaks. It is by no means the only strategy, just the ready-to-hand "no-brainer" that promises to revive a moribund global economy. I see vaccination as primarily an economic, rather than a public-health intervention. Greg Hunt and ScoMo used it as a political smokescreen from Day One. We all have a right (if not a duty) to be skeptical. 

Health practitioners and scientists cannot speak to the ethics of western biomedical research and development. They are too enmeshed in their own disciplines, and seldom formally instructed in more holistic approaches. 

Contemporary virology and immunology are both predicated on human and animal suffering. I left clues to this in a previous post. But despite the "safety" and "efficacy" of the various vaccines, I am yet to hear the slightest detail of their respective bioethical credentials. 

We could learn a lot from Covid-19, but instead we see it as entirely Other, an enemy to be defeated at any cost -- and that's a glaring defect of western culture more broadly. 

For me it's a matter of ethical and political choice. A pox on anyone who discounts these fundamental freedoms "in the name of" X, Y or Z. But I would certainly not deny the right of others to participate, if that's their preference. Neither would I criticise (let alone condemn) such an eminently personal decision. 

We still have much to learn from Covid-19: about sustainable politics, economics, and bioethics, for starters. 

 

 

 

 

 

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36 minutes ago, fyzygy said:

Vaccination is one strategy for dealing with viral outbreaks. It is by no means the only strategy, just the ready-to-hand "no-brainer" that promises to revive a moribund global economy. I see vaccination as primarily an economic, rather than a public-health intervention. Greg Hunt and ScoMo used it as a political smokescreen from Day One. We all have a right (if not a duty) to be skeptical. 

Health practitioners and scientists cannot speak to the ethics of western biomedical research and development. They are too enmeshed in their own disciplines, and seldom formally instructed in more holistic approaches. 

Contemporary virology and immunology are both predicated on human and animal suffering. I left clues to this in a previous post. But despite the "safety" and "efficacy" of the various vaccines, I am yet to hear the slightest detail of their respective bioethical credentials. 

We could learn a lot from Covid-19, but instead we see it as entirely Other, an enemy to be defeated at any cost -- and that's a glaring defect of western culture more broadly. 

For me it's a matter of ethical and political choice. A pox on anyone who discounts these fundamental freedoms "in the name of" X, Y or Z. But I would certainly not deny the right of others to participate, if that's their preference. Neither would I criticise (let alone condemn) such an eminently personal decision. 

We still have much to learn from Covid-19: about sustainable politics, economics, and bioethics, for starters. 

 

 

 

 

 

I agree we could learn a lot.  But it seems they have yet to figure out why many are asymptomatic and others suffer badly or shown any interest in this.

It's one of the first things that should have been studied.

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I can't wait to get a jab. Any of them. Personally I consider myself a logical person and read everything I can in the subject at hand. I compare the hazard x likelihood of occurrence of taking the vaccine vs the same in remaining unvaccinated. It really is a no-brainer.

 

I'm not pro-big-pharma. I don't like their immunity to consequences. I don't think they act in the best interest of public health. I do believe their motivations are purely monetary. I do think these vaccines were rushed and I do think there's propaganda on pro-vaccine as well as anti-vac sides of the argument.

 

But the maths still checks out and that's the bottom line.

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Are you in ill health, such that you have a lot to fear ?

Or unable to isolate ?

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Or have a look at other options ?

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Very proud of the Cuban's exemplary medical system creating the abdala vaccine. anti-vaxxers should lobby the government to get their dose donated to people in other countries who want it where people are dying by the thousands (like India).

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22 hours ago, Freakosystem said:

I'm not pro-big-pharma. I don't like their immunity to consequences. I don't think they act in the best interest of public health. I do believe their motivations are purely monetary. I do think these vaccines were rushed and I do think there's propaganda on pro-vaccine as well as anti-vac sides of the argument.
 

 

As with big-pharma so with governments.  Your health is not the uppermost thing on their minds.

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12 hours ago, enthearch108 said:

Very proud of the Cuban's exemplary medical system creating the abdala vaccine. anti-vaxxers should lobby the government to get their dose donated to people in other countries who want it where people are dying by the thousands (like India).

 

It's not up to "anti-vaxxers"  to do anything of the sort.  If the gov has more than what is wanted then it can send surpluses to other country's.

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11 hours ago, fyzygy said:

 

This is the type of discussions we should be having rather than the censorship and single narrative that prevails. Thanks.

 

Here are a few pieces I took away from that.  From Giorgio Agamben   3 pieces.

 

  Therefore, in a perverse vicious circle, the limitations of freedom imposed by governments are accepted in the name of a desire for safety that was created by the same governments that are now intervening to satisfy it.

 

Fear is a bad counsellor, but it makes us see many things we pretended not to see. The first thing the wave of panic that’s paralysed the country has clearly shown is that our society no longer believes in anything but naked life. It is evident that Italians are prepared to sacrifice practically everything – normal living conditions, social relations, work, even friendships and religious or political beliefs – to avoid the danger of falling ill. The naked life, and the fear of losing it, is not something that brings men and women together, but something that blinds and separates them. Other human beings, like those in the plague described by Manzoni, are now seen only as potential contaminators to be avoided at all costs or at least to keep at a distance of at least one metre. The dead – our dead – have no right to a funeral and it’s not clear what happens to the corpses of our loved ones. Our fellow humans have been erased and it’s odd that the Churches remain silent on this point. What will human relations become in a country that will be accustomed to living in this way for who knows how long? And what is a society with no other value other than survival?

 

It’s not surprising that we talk about the virus in terms of a war. The emergency provisions effectively force us to live under a curfew. But a war against an invisible enemy that can nestle in any other human being is the most absurd of wars. It is, to be truthful, a civil war. The enemy isn’t somewhere outside, it’s inside us.

What’s worrying in not so much the present, not only the present a tleast, but the aftermath. In the same way as the legacies of wars on peacetime have included a whole range of nefarious technologies, from barbed wire to nuclear plants, so it is very likely that there will be attempts to carry on pursuing, even after the medical emergency is over, many of the experiments governments hadn’t been able to implement: may universities and schools remain shut, with lessons and lectures taking place online, may an end be put once and for all to meetings and gathering to talk about political and cultural questions, may we only exchange digital messages and may wherever possible machines replace any contact – any contagion – between human beings.

 

From Sergio Benvenuto  2 pieces

 

There are more politics in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

 

and

 

After all, the effects of this epidemic will strengthen a tendency that would have in any case prevailed, and of which “working remotely” or “wfh”, working from home and avoiding the office, is only one aspect. It will be less and less common for us to wake up in the morning and board public or private vehicles to reach the workplace; more and more we will work on our computers from our homes, which will also become our offices. And thanks to the Amazon and Netflix revolutions, we will no longer need to go out to do the shopping or to theatres to see movies, nor to buy books in bookshops: stores and bookshops (alas) will disappear and everything will be done from home. Life will become “hearhted” or “homeized” (we already need to start thinking up neologisms). Schools too will disappear: with the use of devices like Skype, students will be able to attend their teachers’ lessons from home. This generalized seclusion caused by the epidemic (or rather, by attempts to prevent it) will become our habitual way of life.

 

In relation to the above two authors,  we were speaking of isolation earlier.  This is isolation to perverse and insane degree.

 

 

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Those who haven't done so should check out the movie 'V for Vendetta' possibly the most relevant film of these times and one I re-watched last week.

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Posted (edited)

I am done, now lets move on. can not wait to travel with my family. Done worse shit in my life. still here.

Edited by oncewhywechange

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Who in their right mind would take an experimental vaccine, that legally is not a vaccine? I know Torsten runs the Corroboree but why the fuck would all of you accept his censorship on something as important as this? He wants the Vax let him have it, but don't be the dumb sheep that follows the first to slaughter. Yes, I understand my post will probably be censored by SAB's Zuckerberg, neither is God they have no right to censor anyone. My honest opinion is Covid19 is a psyop a huge lie, but that's just my opinion, it's not a deadly virus. I don't agree with depopulation, there wish plenty for everyone, but agree change is needed. 

If you want the Vax go get it, logically you should be better protected, but apparently not, and actually more at risk looking at the adverse reactions and deaths associated with the ? "It's not a vaccine".

So many smart people here, don't stop thinking now, start thinking for your self, critical think it? Don't just absorb the thoughts of others especially those who believe it is ok to kill people off to reduce numbers so the ones that are left have more.

Torsten said "Topic is fine as long as it doesn't spread misinformation. If anyone's advice diverges from the official line then they must reference this properly (no, youtube videos are not references)" 

it's a very nice way of censoring you, you can't give your opinion if it goes against the "official gov't line" unless you reference blah blah blah.  Listen mate get down off your high horse. Yes I know how to reference and cite, but why would I bother for a public forum, it's not a University.

I know many here look to T as being the grand Poobah, so most won't want o agree with what is really being said here argue, all you want cast aspersions call me names, I don't care, I just hope for all that you can get through this bullshit safely.

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30 minutes ago, in_spirit said:

Who in their right mind would take an experimental vaccine, that legally is not a vaccine? I know Torsten runs the Corroboree but why the fuck would all of you accept his censorship on something as important as this? He wants the Vax let him have it, but don't be the dumb sheep that follows the first to slaughter. Yes, I understand my post will probably be censored by SAB's Zuckerberg, neither is God they have no right to censor anyone. My honest opinion is Covid19 is a psyop a huge lie, but that's just my opinion, it's not a deadly virus. I don't agree with depopulation, there wish plenty for everyone, but agree change is needed. 

If you want the Vax go get it, logically you should be better protected, but apparently not, and actually more at risk looking at the adverse reactions and deaths associated with the ? "It's not a vaccine".

So many smart people here, don't stop thinking now, start thinking for your self, critical think it? Don't just absorb the thoughts of others especially those who believe it is ok to kill people off to reduce numbers so the ones that are left have more.

Torsten said "Topic is fine as long as it doesn't spread misinformation. If anyone's advice diverges from the official line then they must reference this properly (no, youtube videos are not references)" 

it's a very nice way of censoring you, you can't give your opinion if it goes against the "official gov't line" unless you reference blah blah blah.  Listen mate get down off your high horse. Yes I know how to reference and cite, but why would I bother for a public forum, it's not a University.

I know many here look to T as being the grand Poobah, so most won't want o agree with what is really being said here argue, all you want cast aspersions call me names, I don't care, I just hope for all that you can get through this bullshit safely.

 

Censor you?  On the contrary.  So much dumb shit in this post I think its worth preserving.  But that's just my opinion.  My honest opinion of course - so it must be true.

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Something that seems to be commonly missed is these vaccines did not somehow magically appear within a few months as is commonly presented and believed. We were really fortunate that quite a few years of work on creating a vaccine for SARS and MERS (other corona viruses) had already been done and those are what allowed this to come to fruition so quickly.  If it had not been for that we would almost certainly be looking at something that would still be a decade or more off in the future. Both China and the US had been working with corona viruses for a long time with this in mind. Not just the lab in Wuhan but at Ft. Dietrich.

People should do what they feel comfortable with and not do anything they are not comfortable with but it is worth adding that a good bit of the antivaxxer claims I have heard are not on solid footing. Objections are good to raise but they should be based on facts rather than fear and innuendo.


I have no argument with the wisdom of distrusting our leadership in general of course.

That said, I sure do know a lot of vaccinated people and know no one who had problems from them beyond what we were told to expect. I had two rounds of Moderna myself.

 

At least here in the USA, this set of vaccines CAN'T be approved until after a requisite study (which lasts two years) is completed for each of them but due to the emergency authorization many millions of people have already had them and have been for a few months now so we are not looking at something about which nothing is known. An estimated 3.1 billion doses have been given worldwide so this has actually moved a bit past being at the "experimental" level. 329 million doses have been given in the USA compared to something more like 6 or 7 million in Oz. The FDA would have already approved this in the USA due to that but they can't do so legally until the above testing is completed. It is however already clear, based on the results coming in after those millions of doses, that it will be approved just as soon as the regulations permit it.

 

Censorship is wrong but the propagating of misinformation is in fact a real problem that needs to be addressed so finding some sort of balance is needed that permits debate and discussion yet identifies misinformation for being what it is (whether the bad information is painting a happy spin or dire warnings). When dangerous misinformation is propagated in a way that harms other people. If there is no regard for fact checking and disproven claims continue to be promoted, censorship sadly can become necessary. 

COVID is actually something that can and should be controlled. I am just old enough to remember the end of polio and still know people who were not fortunate enough to have been included in the vaccine programs in time. I don't agree with the aggressive pro-vaccine stance wanting to blast children with 22 different ones before age two but vaccines can in fact have good outcomes and this appears to be one of those instances.

 

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26 minutes ago, trucha said:

COVID is actually something that can and should be controlled. I am just old enough to remember the end of polio and still know people who were not fortunate enough to have been included in the vaccine programs in time.

 

Control is the ideological fantasy, in a complex world of unintended consequences. Having escaped & mutated, the polio vaccine has more recently become the leading cause of polio:

https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2017/06/28/534403083/mutant-strains-of-polio-vaccine-now-cause-more-paralysis-than-wild-polio

 

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5 hours ago, fyzygy said:

 

Control is the ideological fantasy, in a complex world of unintended consequences. Having escaped & mutated, the polio vaccine has more recently become the leading cause of polio:

https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2017/06/28/534403083/mutant-strains-of-polio-vaccine-now-cause-more-paralysis-than-wild-polio

 

 

The old oral polio vaccine has no relevance to the Covid vaccine(s).  But i guess any negative headline about vaccines is good for business. 

 

Here's some gems from the article that should be easier to digest:

"That eradication effort has been incredibly successful. In 1988, when the campaign began, there were 350,000 cases of polio around the world each year compared with the six so far this year."

"These outbreaks are occurring only in very rare cases and only in places where children are not immunized," says Zaffran. The regular polio vaccine protects children from vaccine-derived strains of the virus just as it protects them from regular polio."

 

and leading cause of Polio?  OK, OK  - 21 is greater than 6...  but versus 350,000... :rolleyes:  At least you bothered to post a reference.

 

 

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I am enjoying hearing all of the diverse opinions in this thread. 

 

Running water is a big deal too:

 

https://rootsofprogress.org/draining-the-swamp

 

 

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Well, the scientists are saying I should hold out for Pfizer, while Scummo is saying I can talk to my GP and get a Astra vaccine against the recs of his own scientists. Personally I don't trust Scummo when he says to go with Astra, but I also don't trust Scummo to get Pfizer rolled out either.

 

If I was in Sydney right now I'd probably be trudging off to get Astra without even the protection of legal recourse if something goes wrong. Thankfully I'm not in Sydney, so I'm going to cross my fingers and hope the PM doesn't fuck anything else up before I get the medically recommended vaccine for my age group.

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If Scummo wasn't such a great fuckup, Covid would have been totally eliminated in Australia a year ago, no vaccine needed.

By monumental stupidity or by design, Australia still struggles with something that lasts no  longer than 2 weeks.

Don't trust authority, political, scientific or medical..

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Posted (edited)

Double post

Edited by Mycot
double post

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Posted (edited)

I got my 2nd Pfizer dose on Saturday which took a deal of stuffing around, an hour on the phone and 3 hrs travel x2 trips.  The only thing advising some 20,000 locals is a flashing roadworks sign with a phone number for the screening/ booking service.  To get tested i also need to drive 3hrs, am i expected to do this for every sniffle?

Scummo hasn't really managed to embrace the reality of this from the get go (ie attitude to lockdowns, the budget, 'it's not a race', ect). Prefering the status quo but times have changed and your healing hands dont seem to be much chop, Scott.   Its clear that the Liberals are a clunky machine made up of swinging dicks and seat sniffers. Any talent that they had, left with Malcolm.  If it wasn't for our premiers we wouldn't be in as favourable a position, case wise imo. 

With the big focus on vaccines, conspiracies and government bungling we forget that better testing and treatments should be well underway too.  Ive read that Qld uni have a promising treatment.

https://www.uq.edu.au/news/article/2020/03/researchers-set-begin-clinical-trials-potential-coronavirus-treatment

Kindness H

Edited by Humboldt
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Posted (edited)

Glad to see someone else mention treatment options. 

Hopefully it wont be to much longer before RNA silencing technology becomes mainstream discussion.

 

No disrespect to Louis Pasteur, but i think its time we used advanced technology that was developed more recently than the 1880s....

 

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fphar.2021.616993/full

 

fphar-12-616993-g005.jpg

FIGURE 5. RNA interference (miRNAs and siRNAs) biogenesis and function. The miRNAs first transcribed from the nucleus genome as pri-miRNA. Then pri-miRNA cleavage with Drosha and DGCR and converted to pre-miRNA. Then, RanGTP and exportin 5 cause the pre miRNA to be transported from the nucleus to the cytoplasm and cleavage by Dicer and TRBP. Ultimately, after entering the RISC complex, mature miRNA can be attached to the target mRNA and perform their function by destroying mRNA or inhibiting the translation. When inserting into the cell, synthetic siRNAs are cleaved by Dicer in the cytoplasm. This dsRNA enters RISC, and if cold finds the target mRNA, the mRNA is cleaved by the RISC and Ago2.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Change

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