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Buttsack

Where's the legislation on caapi legality?

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So before Torsten blocked me  he said;
" The legislation is laid out to read. All legislation is online. I check it all the time. "
but wouldn't send me a link and was arrogant about it.
Me: Dude if it were black and white where all your legislation then?
Reply by Torsten: You're a fact resistant idiot. I couldn't be bothered. I already told you all legislation is online. On the government website.

Me: unmute me in the group and I won't post any sales. I wanna ask more info about legality
Me: Goose chases aren't for me
Torsten: sorry, I am not your educator and I can see you will only spread misinformation in the group. I'll make the mute permanent.
Me: Nah but you have an opinion based on something you won't share....seems a bit rude to me

Then I was blocked...
So according to Torsten I'm a fact resistant idiot, but I'm honestly yet to see any fact. It's also apparently been discussed plenty of times in the forums but I can't find anything stating legislation?
Can someone please please point me in the right direction to where legislation states caapi plant material is illegal?

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Oops

Edited by Enjaytee
Posted wrong info. Forget I said anything. You didn’t see nothin!

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I linked him to the NSW drug act. Apparently that wasn't accurate enough. Someone who can't find the word harmaline in a document that was provided to them should probably not question other's interpretation of the law as they are ill equipped to do so.

I should also mention that he thought unharvested weed was not a drug and that it is legal to grow poppies. He also claimed that the rules can't be found anywhere, so I pointed out that googling 'poppies legality' will serve him the answer as the first hit. Obviously has no idea how to search, how to read, or how to comprehend, but doesn't believe anything he's told.
A quick look at his FB timeline told me all I needed to know about where my time is better spent.

Enjay, what you linked is the federal law website and in particular the food standards code. This only deals with what's allowed in food or not.

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10 hours ago, Torsten said:

I linked him to the NSW drug act. Apparently that wasn't accurate enough. Someone who can't find the word harmaline in a document that was provided to them should probably not question other's interpretation of the law as they are ill equipped to do so.

Dude P.Incarnata has harmine in it but is legal to sell as a food so your reasoning for caapi being illegal doesn't add up. You didn't seem to want to discuss these types of discrepancies though and tried putting me down instead.

 

10 hours ago, Torsten said:

I should also mention that he thought unharvested weed was not a drug and that it is legal to grow poppies. He also claimed that the rules can't be found anywhere, so I pointed out that googling 'poppies legality' will serve him the answer as the first hit. Obviously has no idea how to search, how to read, or how to comprehend, but doesn't believe anything he's told.

Lol oh ffs here we go again, your comprehension skills really suck. Here's what I said:
"You can have a pound of weed on the plant and you won't be charged for a pound, you'll be charged for one plant, so I think you're missing my point. Poppy seed is sold in stores, never said poppy pods were legal. Plenty of people use poppy seed for their opium fix, but I can see your argument about them being viable seeds. It'd be nice if the legislation was laid out to read. It's obviously not so black and white with caapi which is why you haven't shared any links, I mention poppies and you're all over it though..
I've searched the forums and get about as much info as you are giving me"
 

10 hours ago, Torsten said:

A quick look at his FB timeline told me all I needed to know about where my time is better spent.

Hahaha this actually tells me a lot about you and your beliefs, thanks for sharing that.
 

10 hours ago, -RC- said:

" In Australia, the harmala alkaloids are scheduled substances, including harmine and harmaline; however, the living vine, or other source plants are not scheduled in most states. In the State of Queensland as of March 2008,[9] this distinction is now uncertain. In all states, the dried herb may or may not be considered a scheduled substance, dependent on court rulings. "

...........so yeah....not so black and white.
As far as I can tell if it's not to be consumed and not sold to be consumed then there isn't an issue. If you make a brew or extract then that's where things become illegal, same as scoring poppies vs them just growing. Cannabis leaf, plants and THC are all separate in the scheduling and if you get done for weed they charge you accordingly, you don't get charged for the amount of THC in the leaves, which is the reasoning Torsten seems to be using.

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On 07/01/2021 at 1:05 AM, Buttsack said:

Hey just wanting your opinion on the legality of selling p.viridis leaf, caapi leaf/bark and catha leaves as art material or anything but food? Coz as fas as I understand it's only prohibited according to "Australia New Zealand Food Standards Code – Schedule 23 – Prohibited plants and fungi", and only caapi and catha fall under that, but p.viridis isn't there, so as long as it's not food and not prohibited under other legislation it seems all good to me. 

Oh yeah and Torsten if you check your messages you'll see I actually asked you about this. So it's not like I haven't tried to get clear answers before posting in the fb group.

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Laws are written by humans with little subject knowledge, so there are many discrepancies. Just because the legislators missed something doesn't mean the magistrate will let you off for another. However as for passiflora, you will find an exemption in the SUSMP that overrides the state drug act so your argument is moot.

" if you get done for weed they charge you accordingly, you don't get charged for the amount of THC in the leaves "
Weed can be charged in 3 ways. Live plant, dried herb, or cannabinoids. eg if the weed is mulled up and a botanist can't positively identify it then you will get done for cannabinoids/THC rather than weed.

The legality of selling caapi is not a grey matter whatsoever. It is only in your mind based on your ignorance of the laws. I am not stopping you from breaking the law. I am merely pointing out that you are and that you can't do so on this forum or in the sab FB group. Feel free to ruin your life.

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1 hour ago, Torsten said:

Laws are written by humans with little subject knowledge, so there are many discrepancies. Just because the legislators missed something doesn't mean the magistrate will let you off for another.

Huh? If laws are written and miss something they amend them after so the next person doesn't get off so easy, especially if there's a big media storm over it. Of course the magistrate has to let you off if they can't prove beyond reasonably doubt that you broke the law.

1 hour ago, Torsten said:

However as for passiflora, you will find an exemption in the SUSMP that overrides the state drug act so your argument is moot.

My argument still stands, I haven't found an exemption for it in The Poisons Standard. Passionflower is okay to be sold as a food according to the TGA. So is that what you're getting at, if it's listed somewhere else as okay then that overrides the other law?

https://www.legislation.gov.au/Details/F2021C00098/Html/Text#_Toc62808226

Under Schedule 9
"HARMALA ALKALOIDS except in herbs, or preparations, for therapeutic use:

a)      containing 0.1 per cent or less of harmala alkaloids; or

b)      in divided preparations containing 2 mg or less of harmala alkaloids per recommended daily dose."

So to prove someone was selling harmala illegally they'd have to test it right?
What if the caapi strain is really low on harmala alkaloids or non existent?
 

1 hour ago, Torsten said:

if the weed is mulled up and a botanist can't positively identify it then you will get done for cannabinoids/THC rather than weed.

So you're saying that if they can't identify the material as cannabis they'll do more testing to see the THC content? For liquids maybe but never heard of that for plant material. If a botanist can only identify 70% of the material seized as cannabis then that's what you get charged for, I think it's still counted as a whole, but the judge takes that into account.
 

1 hour ago, Torsten said:

The legality of selling caapi is not a grey matter whatsoever. It is only in your mind based on your ignorance of the laws. I am not stopping you from breaking the law. I am merely pointing out that you are and that you can't do so on this forum or in the sab FB group. Feel free to ruin your life.

Where's all the people that have been charged for it? Got any court references? Surely there'd be a heap by now..
You haven't really said much to paint it as a black and white, still very grey to me. I get not wanting it to be sold on your platform and no worries, but at least be clear about your rules before shutting people up, I didn't even get notifications for the first post so of course I'd post it again. FB has even cracked down on how people sell things, can't list anything that's not food approved as a food, can still sell things as whatever though, just don't go making claims along side it. 

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Good luck with that. Some people just can't be educated. And I've run out of fucks to give.

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1 hour ago, Torsten said:

Good luck with that. Some people just can't be educated. And I've run out of fucks to give.

Ahh thanks for showing your ignorance/arrogance. I asked questions, that if you know what you're saying you know, should be easy to answer. I don't think you've actually thought this through since you can't provide any evidence to back up what you're saying, not even any court cases for any of the people who have been done for selling caapi. Do I have to pay a fee or make some sort of sacrifice to get info from you? Sorta like how Scientology and most religions work, don't question those in power...just swallow what you're told.

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18 hours ago, Buttsack said:

Ahh thanks for showing your ignorance/arrogance. I asked questions, that if you know what you're saying you know, should be easy to answer. I don't think you've actually thought this through since you can't provide any evidence to back up what you're saying, not even any court cases for any of the people who have been done for selling caapi. Do I have to pay a fee or make some sort of sacrifice to get info from you? Sorta like how Scientology and most religions work, don't question those in power...just swallow what you're told.

i doubt you "buttsack", is/ are, in fact, smarter than most of us, who learned here.

 i think, "you" (topic wanker) are smart enticing tort!!

 tort seems to give you energy, but for years, he hasn't done that with any body else...

 

tort, can come across, as arrogant, but his only mildly, he just knows a lot.

 

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On 13/02/2021 at 4:14 PM, withdrawl clinic said:

i doubt you "buttsack", is/ are, in fact, smarter than most of us, who learned here.

 i think, "you" (topic wanker) are smart enticing tort!!

 tort seems to give you energy, but for years, he hasn't done that with any body else...

 

tort, can come across, as arrogant, but his only mildly, he just knows a lot.

 

"topic wanker" lol pull your head in. No one said anyone is smarter than anyone but thanks for your assumption.
Tort gives me energy? huh? How is me asking him questions which he ignores giving me energy? It's actually wasting energy.

People who know a lot have no need for arrogance, they just answer the question simply and get on with it, which definitely isn't the case here.
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough." - Albert Einstein

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14 hours ago, Buttsack said:

People who know a lot have no need for arrogance, they just answer the question simply and get on with it, which definitely isn't the case here.
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough." - Albert Einstein

 

here's another cracker: "the lips of wisdom are closed, except to the ears of Understanding" 

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And yet Buttsack, here you are, on Torsten's forum, spitting the dummy after having a dummy spit at him on the FB page he runs as well. And you're not banned here so you get to blather some more. He's been very patient with you IMO

 

If your SAB related existence is as bad as you say, fuck off, start your own pages and forums. When you've done this for a couple of decades and dealt with all the issues you will possibly be taken more seriously

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I see the need for a dedicated legals website. 

I can't understand so much hostility in a forum devoted to (ahem) entheogens. 

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19 hours ago, saguaro said:

 

here's another cracker: "the lips of wisdom are closed, except to the ears of Understanding

haha wanna elaborate on that?

 

12 hours ago, Darklight said:

And yet Buttsack, here you are, on Torsten's forum, spitting the dummy after having a dummy spit at him on the FB page he runs as well. And you're not banned here so you get to blather some more. He's been very patient with you IMO

 

If your SAB related existence is as bad as you say, fuck off, start your own pages and forums. When you've done this for a couple of decades and dealt with all the issues you will possibly be taken more seriously

Wanna crawl any further up his arse? lol
"Torsten's forum"
Wanna elaborate on that?
"spitting the dummy"
How so? Is having an opposing opinion, and asking questions about what facts someone else's opinon, somehow spitting the dummy to you?
Your words don't hold much value when you throw them around based on no facts..
"If your SAB related existence is as bad as you say"
Wanna quote where I said that, please.
"fuck off"
Lol you're just a shit talker, and as I said, your words hold little to no value lol, just a joke.
"start your own pages and forums"
I don't think you understand how forums work, it's not the owner who makes them what they are, it's the users, and if the owner kicks out users willy nilly people do find other places or make them. That's not the case here though, Torsten runs the forums fine and same with fb, I don't have an issue with him deleting my post, I'm just trying to get answers to clarify caapi's legality. Not sure why this has turned into such a shit show, and I'm not the one slinging shit either, just asking questions, being ignored, then calling out that ignorance.

Btw I'm not the only person reading this or who doesn't know what I'm asking, I haven't seen anyone else chime in to back up what Torsten is saying, just people pissing in his pocket.

 

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On 12/02/2021 at 8:11 PM, Torsten said:

Some people just can't be educated

Some people just can't educate..

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edit: i'm opting out of this convo lol

Edited by saguaro
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4 minutes ago, saguaro said:

edit: i'm opting out of this convo lol

Dude you've already made your statement so you're in regardless, if you want out edit your other comment too. Not sure why it's hard for you to clarify what you said..you made the comment after all.

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13 hours ago, Buttsack said:
On 15/02/2021 at 11:19 AM, saguaro said:

here's another cracker: "the lips of wisdom are closed, except to the ears of Understanding

haha wanna elaborate on that?


This is hilarious. And the joke is likely completely over Buttsack's head.

I hear you got muted on the auction group today for annoying a moderator too much. Such a winning personality.

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14 hours ago, Torsten said:


This is hilarious. And the joke is likely completely over Buttsack's head.

I hear you got muted on the auction group today for annoying a moderator too much. Such a winning personality.

Haha I get what it's trying to imply, but it's meaningless words when put in context.
Maybe you wanna elaborate then? Bet you can't, just running your mouth instead as usual..

Muted for annoying a moderator too much? lol more like asking the moderator for a time stamp and getting a hostile response, then getting muted coz I was questioning what he said. Another member hit the nail on the head in one post and answered my question, but that was after I was muted. Also it's a bit pathetic to mute someone then make false claims about what was said after. My question never changed and your mate Gus just rambled on assuming I was whinging about not seeing another bid before the auction ended, I didn't care about that only mentioned that to the Author. I kept correcting him when he was misquoting what I said and trying to get him to clarify the time stamp.

" comment from Torsten "This auction result seems clear to everyone except Luke who is rude and argumentative even though the error is on his part. It's not the moderator's problem if he can't see a bid."

I don't think you actually read all the comments, if you did you'll see I wasn't fussed and just wanted the time stamp checked coz I didn't realize you could see it from the PC, have seen plenty of other posts where people ask for time stamps and it's sorted in one comment, this shitshow was just ridiculous and so much ego tripping instead of just answering my question lol, what a joke.
As you can see I just wanted it clarified....
Me: soooo his bid was 1 min after mine by your watch?
If so then all good.

Gus: We can see the same timestanps you can, you clearly said you couldn't see the bids and I'm trying to help you and answered in good faith, calmly, to the exact question you posed.
Really not sure why you are firing up at this at all, from my perspective you were rude and hostile to me trying to help politely in good faith.

Me: so how can you tell
" according to the timestamp only one minute after your bid."
but then say
"We can see the same timestanps you can"
??? I don't get it, so can you see the timestamp showing the other bid 1 min after mine? or do you see "16h"?

Gus: Mate, you're pushing for a mute. Yes, it's within 5 mins, as I said. We can all see the same thing, hover over the time and it will give you minutes, that's what I used, and what we all use, admin or not.

And this shit, "yeah no shit that's why I commented "huh"..." when I'm clearly trying to answer the exact question you asked, I can't read your mind that you can see the comment when you literally say you can't see bids from 7 mins after yours, you never said you could see Andrews bid but just didn't know the time of it.
Re-read what you actually asked above with a little more perspective.
I'm done here.


So he finally clarifies but mutes me before doing so.
and here's my question that went over Gus' head, let's see if I "literally say I can't see bids", also please note there's literally a difference between the word "didn't" and "can't"...haha
Me: huh so what happened here? didn't even know there was another bid after me

Me: don't admins check time or something to make sure it was within 5 min? I had the page open and didn't see any other bids after 7min, maybe something was up and it didn't load but all other bids came through.

Then about 10 comments later someone takes a screenshot of my original question and posts this answer.
"from pc u gotta hold ur mouse over the timestamp.. i dnt think it is avail to mobile users"


Seriously what a mission to get a simple answer from one of your chosen ones.
Let's try and stay on topic now please.

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Mercury in retrograde ends later this week on Sunday. Communication during these times can be more difficult than usual, so hopefully clearer skies ahead.

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On 16/02/2021 at 7:48 AM, Buttsack said:

Wanna crawl any further up his arse? lol

 

It would be most incongruous if I *didn't* reply to your stupidity. I've known the bloke years longer than he's had the forums. You probably don't understand what it's like to have long term friendships; in that event try to extrapolate possible scenarios via google

 

On 16/02/2021 at 7:48 AM, Buttsack said:

"Torsten's forum"
Wanna elaborate on that?

 

He owns the domain. For most of the decades it's been around he's paid for and managed the site. Occasionally a few people kick in funds, some most generously

 

Is this simple enough for you?

 

 

On 16/02/2021 at 7:48 AM, Buttsack said:

"start your own pages and forums"
I don't think you understand how forums work, it's not the owner who makes them what they are, it's the users, and if the owner kicks out users willy nilly people do find other places or make them.

 

Which explains the unmitigated proliferation and long term survival of the hundreds of other ethnobotanical forums online today /sarcasm

 

Goodbye

 

 

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On 19/02/2021 at 10:41 AM, Darklight said:

It would be most incongruous if I *didn't* reply to your stupidity. I've known the bloke years longer than he's had the forums. You probably don't understand what it's like to have long term friendships; in that event try to extrapolate possible scenarios via google

Hahaha doesn't matter whether he's your best mate, you grew up with him, your brother, dad, whatever....it still came across to me that you were crawling up his arse, justify it however you want it is what it is..
Oh yeah and my long term friendships don't end in arse kissing, quite the opposite, we give each other shit and take the piss, and can do this coz we actually know each other.

 

On 19/02/2021 at 10:41 AM, Darklight said:

He owns the domain. For most of the decades it's been around he's paid for and managed the site. Occasionally a few people kick in funds, some most generously

 

Is this simple enough for you?

Well yeah he owns the domain but I don't think it's 'his forum' so to speak, takes more than just one person to make a forum. Plenty of businesses have forums or groups on fb to help boost business, it's a no brainer really, especially if you can get the users to pay for it themselves. I'm all for this forum and the information it harbors, but without it's users it's nothing.
 

 

On 19/02/2021 at 10:41 AM, Darklight said:

Which explains the unmitigated proliferation and long term survival of the hundreds of other ethnobotanical forums online today /sarcasm

What forums are you talking about? There were never that many and the ones I have known about for years still exist.

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On 21/02/2021 at 7:31 AM, Buttsack said:

What forums are you talking about? There were never that many and the ones I have known about for years still exist. 


Once again a perfect display of your ignorance. None of the dozen or so ethnobotany forums of the last 20 years have survived - except this one. This has been the oldest ethnobotany forum around ever since edot (which was a few months older than us) folded. The nook, edot, ethnobotany cafe, ethnobotany australia, australian ethnobotany,  soc de entheogene, spiritplants, lycaeum, waka pacha, somniforum, ora aevum, earthgarden, DMT world, etc (including some of their reincarnations) all gone. The only one from that era still around is the shroomery, but they only did shrooms in those days and i haven't included any single-topic forums like that in my list. The only other google searchable forum that is still around but is quite narrow and hard to get approval for is dmt nexus but they are pretty young in comparison. The vast majority of the research of the 90s and 00s is now only available here.
It's amazing how much you think you know when you're ignorant.

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