Jump to content
The Corroboree
Sign in to follow this  
2b

Vego kids unethical ?

Recommended Posts

twix elbert:

in fish it's believed that nociception is mediated by the spinal cord and brainstem, and aversive stimuli results in an automatic withdrawal of the stimulated body part, struggling etc. fish lack the regions of the brain known to be responsible for the experience of fear and emotional aspect of pain.

Evidently you've studied it in far more detail than I have, so I'll stop arguing .

I wouldn't be surprised at all if they lack the emotional aspect of pain - I don't doubt that they exist in a far simpler mode of consciousness than mammals for instance. However I keep aquarium fish and have worked in an aquarium shop, and I've seen some pretty damn smart fish, especially african cichlids with complex social behaviours. As pain is a great teacher, I would be inclined to assume that an organism that can learn relatively complex behaviours would also be able to learn what's going to damage it's body.

Basically I'm uncomfortable with any suggestion that we really know what it's like to be anyone else - after all the differences between the ways different humans experience the world are great enough - how can we know definitively what it's like to be another species?

Fish are really quite smart social creatures and can learn things, and when you hurt them, they get hurt

[ 28. February 2005, 18:39: Message edited by: creach ]

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

i know this is abit off the subject, working the food industry recently there has been amazing increase in gluten free demands in the last 8 months, i think its because of the lastest bullshit diet, the atkins low carb diet

for some stupid reason the general GROOVY society belive if its gluten free is carb free.

people can be so stupid when it come to dieting, if your ARE genuinly alergic to gluten you would know that you are actually alergic to globulin which is the only part of the 3 that cant be removed from wheat products

gluten is made up of 3 parts,glutanin gliadin and globulin, this has nothing to do with the carbs because its a protien.

so as for the obesity epidemic, there are too much ignorance mixed in with stupidity, ignorance in the sense of refusing to belive you can make a kick ass stir fry with no fat in just a few minutes as oppose to getting in the car bolting down the street and getting 30gms of fat a mountian of synthetic preservatives as a bonus.

dont mind me, i just think kids should also be taught at an early age about nutrition, and healthy combinations of food to maximize there quality of life, they can also help them selves when they get sick.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

quote:

it's strange that people are also ignoring the environmental reasons for not eating meat, particular beef; methane from cattle is a large contributor to greenhouse gases, as well as the ranching that causes deforestation.

I doubt this common assumption very much. They do like to bring it up in relation to say south american deforestation and cattle ranching but at least here in Australia Cattle seem to be alright for the environment in suitable habitats and managed correctly

Round here they cleared a lot of the land of forest and open woodland for cattle pasture but theland is healthy, the soil fertile with organic matter and the grass grows thick. Its a lesser carbon holding ecosystem than say forest but much more environmentally friendly (Erosion, leaching, fuel and poison inputs and biodiversity) than when the same area is put under soybeans.

In other (drier) parts of Australia ive seen the same story as woll prices went down and crop prices went up the farmers have torn open the ground and grow crop after crop of canola and cereals. The land looks much worse for wear than when theye were grazing it.

quote:

if all the doctor could offer as acure was broth, the maybe ghandi was just protecting his son from a typical quack.

I realise it could all be a futile point if its not true but i think ghandi would be irresponsible if he let his own beliefs threaten the life of his child.

quote:

BTW I DISLIKE VEGOS WHO THINK THEY CAN EAT FISH AND STILL BE CALLED A VEGO, YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE! Just admit it!

its not our fault. Its the insufficiency of language.Just as there are meat eaters who dont eat Beef or Pork there are vegos who do consume animal products incl fish

In the broadest sense vego starts when somebody stops eating meat excl fish, some eat chicken but even id argue thyer no vego just a picky meat eater!

Honestly i dont give a shit if something has feelings or not when i eat it as im no "ethical" vego. Its nice to kill it humanely and all but in reality i feel worse about pulling out a plant to eat (instead of it seeding) or even try eating a rare type of bean or corn i could have grown instead than say killing a fish or crustacean (unless its a particularly fine specimen and i let it go).

I feel no need to expand on vego for a whole suite of variations cos really the only necessity for the label is when somebody else has to know what to cook for you - and for me it doesnt matter cos the clause in my changed diet is that that i eat meat only on special social/festival occassions - which makes the vego thing irrelevant to others anyway!

[ 01. March 2005, 00:07: Message edited by: Rev ]

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I learned in one of my courses the other day that 'strict' vegetarians are susceptable to B12 deficiency. This also applies to their nursing children! B12 is needed for DNA synthesis and deficiency can result in anemia and I can only imagine what else in a developing child. If precautions such as vitamin supplements and consultation with a nutritionist aren't taken it might be considered neglect. Hmmm? Would the same apply to a parent who gives their child fast (deep fried) food 5 times a week? Maybe it should?

I totally agree about trying to be not so disconnected from out meat. An uncle of mine raised some Turkeys and a Pig last year. They were all treated well. He even fed the pig fresh fruit! You have alot more respect for the sacrifice of the animal's life if you get to know it a little first.

...

There's something I've been thinking about for awhile. If a plant could be genetically engineered to have 'meat', could a vegan eat it? I know it sounds like SciFi, but in 50 to 100 years it would be completely possible. Splice a few genes here and there,a bit of actin, a bit of myosin, give it some nerves to contract like a beating heart to keep it lean, but still completely photosynthetic. It will be possible.

I doubt any vegan would ever eat a GMO though.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Back to the theme of the post, this will be the report referred to:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4282257.stm

This is a simple case of stupid or malicious scientists (in the US ARS) inferring a general result from malnourished African children - not the children of vegans in developed countries.

I cannot recommend a diet of just corn and beans for children, though this should easily provide sufficient protein. I would recommend a fully varied diet with green leafy veg, fruits, tubers, oils and yeast extract and all sorts of stuff. Some supplementation of B12 and D would be ideal.

"The 544 children studied had been raised on diets chiefly consisting of starchy, low-nutrition corn and bean staples lacking these micronutrients.

This meant they were already malnourished."

And Hitler didn't have the willpower to be vegetarian, though his doctors insisted that he should be, in case anyone brings up that blatant lie again.

Sorry for the pause in your lack of service. Normal lack of service will be resumed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As previous stated - a high vegetable/fruit diet is ideal for children - or any human for that matter. The issue comes more from vitamins like B1 and B12, Iron and folate and making sure these are sustained without meat injestion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A couple of things for vegos too keep in mind:

1) B12 is found only in animal products and some bacteria. It is not produced by any plants or even mushrooms or yeast. The content of shop mushrooms is entirely due to surface bacteria, which makes it vulnerable to washing off/air oxidation/heat damage. Vegans especially should take a supplement.

2) The 30g of protein figure that Tort mentions is for high quality (ie generally animal) protein. If your source of protein is plants, you will need more.

Plant proteins are generally low in one or several essential amino acids. Unless you manage to get a perfect balance of amino acids from different sources, you will probably get insufficient amounts of at least one aa from 30g of protein.

Also, plant proteins can be poorly digestible, only a fraction of the content of the food may actually be absorbed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

i got sick when i was a semi-long term vego - once i got back on the meat and protein foods i could believ how much better i felt. Nowdays i eat a pretty much high protein diet - ist not a long term thing, but it has improved my general health so much that its working for me now.

I can understand the ethical reasons for choosing to be a vego - as i cannot stand the way animals are kept in the most inhumane ways, and are sent to their premature deaths in an often foul-looking shed to provide for the ever increasing market, so i try to eat freerange/organic chicken, pork etc

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm a recovering vego

I definitely don't like the way our meat products are treated before culling and I found I still can't eat shop bought red meat, but the fish mmmmmmmm

Barramundi and trout make my brain feel like it's actually working.

I'd love to hear from waterdragon on this I imagine you'd be eating fresh lamb,chicken,roo,rabbit etc...

Do you catch trout up there wd?

mmmmmm fish.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hmm I'm coming back to this a bit late but better than never.

On the "a healhy vego diet is possible but takes care" --- firstly do you really want to have to go through the spanish inquisition every day to make sure your food is up to scratch, and secondly do you really trust the assumption that current scientific opinion of what constitutes an adequate diet is correct and complete?

On the mammals > fish > plants thing, isn't it obvious that this subjective ranking of "mental" or "emotional" capacity is actually just an expression of how similar these life forms are to ourselves? On "you have to draw the line somewhere", no, you don't. Doesn't the arbitrariness of the location of the line hint at the fact that there's something wrong with the idea that everything to one side of the line is perfectly OK to eat and that everything to the other side is forbidden?

On the vego = enviro thing, as others have said, it is more to do with the methods than the product. For example, monoculturing of European grains is very damaging to the environment, being a major contributor to salinity, pesticide load etc. And in fact, being vego doesn't necessarily spare more animal lives. I read one assessment (I can dig up refs if needed) that stated that due to the need to exterminate mouse plagues in wheat growing areas, every kilogram of wheat protein results in ten times as many deaths as compared to beef protein. Even if you are a taxological supremecist, you must acknowledge that mice and cows are fairly similar as social placental mammals.

Regardless of where you draw the line, everything you put into your mouth has come from the body of another living creature. Predation is nature's way. Trying to deny it is futile and when taken to its logical conclusion leads to complete irrationality. Check out this quote for an illustration of Animal Rights ideas taken to their "logical" conclusion:

"I am not a morose person but I would rather not be here. I don't have any reverence for life, only for the entities themselves. I would rather see a blank space where I am. This will sound like fruitcake stuff again, but at least I wouldn't be harming anything." Ingrid Newkirk PETA

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree with rk.

I can't accept that killing and eating a feral rabbit is an unethical act, while wearing cotton clothes is OK (I do both, but feel occasionaly guilty only about the latter).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×