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Thelema

psychaedelics and vegetarianism (pisco-lacto)

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I went out to shop for my nightly meal, and found,again, what psychaedelics have been trying to teach me my whole life: Meat and meat-products are disgusting. I walked past the aisles in revulsion. I bought a big bad bag of habnero chillies and some tins of firey mexican beans. This has finally done it, I'm afraid - I've been listening to them tell me for years about smoking tobacco and drinking alcohol being just as bad as carnivory. I have always accepted the former 2 without question, yet that has not made me not a convert. But I'm converted. I do not need to keep taking things like this in order for the truth to finally hit me on the head: yes, a former canivore, I have decided immdiately to finally beocme what the universe want's me to become and that is vegetarian. For reasons of insight, there are still some sea products I will eat, like sushi, raw fish, calamari, octopus, prawns. But gone are oysters and mussles. I will still have fish and chips.I will still continue to honour the cow by drinking it's milk and eating its cheese in return for the love we give them. I think the veal industry that tags along with this is the most VILE meat trade in the world, apart from human flesh.

 

Are there any others like me who know what I'm going on about? Have you ever had psychaedelic experiences or anxieties that have forced you to awake into vegetarianism? Would love to hear...also welcome to speculate about theories, I know someoneone like Alchemica is bound to have an interesting theory, I look forward to these.

Edited by Thelema
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Just now, Thelema said:

For reasons of insight, there are still some sea products I will eat, like sushi, raw fish, calamari, octopus, prawns.

Hi Thelma, why these particular critters? Many people go vego for either health or ethical reasons. If it's health, wouldn't prawns be excluded. They have a very high cholesterol levels. Not to mention, like most bottom feeders, they are known to accumulate toxins, such as PCB's and dioxins. I personally think much of the ethical augment is flawed. Never the less, wouldn't the high intelligence of cephalopods rule them out?

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It's not an ethical argument, by the way. And yes with prawns I go with my eldest son and will avoid them, he has always been anti-prawn based on a similar mystical shock.

what about you thunderidealilovephilsophy mrs squiggles?

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To answer your question specifically, yes.

I had no intention of giving up meat and grog......

my favorite meal is Malaysian Beef Rendang and I was a whisky connoisseur, I just love everything about it.

But, after my 2nd deep Iboga session, the plant made me give them both up.

Total dissociation from any desire for either. 4 and a half years ago.

 

The fundamental reason is high vibration.

The plant wants me to maintain the vibration of the medicine, and meat and grog are too low vibration. 

Besides better all around good health, (which is what you want from a good medicine).

I get way more value from my other medicines, a cleaner system for them to work with.

 

So, be careful with Iboga, you might just get exactly what you need. Not necessarily what you want.

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I wonder if it has got something to do with GDNF upgrading or some sort of dimer physiology?

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Interesting. I asked psilo last night if I should return to vegetarianism and the answer was YES before I could finish asking.

I continued... 'Vegan?' and there was a pause... 'In time'

 

There was a big non-verbal space in the pause which was something along the lines of 'you have a lot of work to do before you can sustain a plant-based diet, don't worry about it for now'

 

So I will listen. Mainly because it was clear that I am welcome in that space, but I am not to return before addressing my physical and mental health in a lot of ways. It was like, 'Address this and this, stop doing x and y. We (After years of trying to rationalise it, I give up. Psilo speaks as 'we' to me *shrug*) want you to stop. We can't help you, you have to do that yourself, but when you do, you will be mentally and physically prepared for complete immersion.'

 

(non-relevant)

 

I guess I'm just trying to find ways to info-dump some of the things that occured to me, but I think the most profound experience was finding my childhood self within me, red in the face from holding his breath and clenching his fists. I let him scream and claw at me until he was done, cried throughout it, cried tears of joy afterwards, held him in my arms and told him that he/I is loved and a good person and etc etc. I could feel his/my presence in the room, actually feel the space that he occupied. Thinking about it is bringing me close to tears again.

 

Anyway. To answer your question, yes. Absolutely. But I had to learn to listen.

 

Yisss, I sound completely deranged,.. But have never felt more sane :P

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I had a chicken-curry pasta packet yesterday for lunch without even thinking. Boy the chicken made me feel quite ill!

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so do heroin addicts consume a lot of meat? are they carnivorous largely? What about meth?

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I quit meat after a 'psychedelic' like experience more than 20 years ago now.

 

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On 5/26/2018 at 9:41 PM, Thelema said:

so do heroin addicts consume a lot of meat? are they carnivorous largely? What about meth?

 

In my experience, people who are deep into either of those addictions don't tend to eat a lot of anything.

 

There are some direct drug effects on appetite + digestion, but also just shifting priorities - when you need the money for Other Things, grocery shopping might take a backseat. Especially if you're able to scavenge free food - that way you can reallocate your entire food budget AND not starve. Have your Cake & eat too!

 

Speaking only for myself, I found that having a serious drug habit drastically decreased my unethical food consumption - can't support unsustainable farming/harvesting practices if you're not spending money on food!

 

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Though I'm not sure why you chose meth & heroin particularly. Since you've said that it's not about the ethics, does that mean that you're looking for a pharmacological effect - some physical mechanism that links a person's drug use to their food choices? And if so, why those drugs? If you're trying to compare psychedelics to an "opposite" - wouldn't it make more sense to look at things like dopamine-blocking antipsychotics?

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Pejuta is consumed in the NAC ceremonies. 

 

Yet, young puppy is also eaten traditionally in many yuwipi ceremonies. Buffalo stew is often the second go to meat in many of these ceremonies with cow being considered a poor replacement to buffalo. 

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I look at eating meat TODAY as a different situation to eating meat during past eras and especially within Hunter gatherer societies.  This is because the way that an animal lives and dies affects its physical,  emotional and psychological nutritional value,  in my opinion. If someone lives in a house where people have been murdered in cold blood,  even if they don't know of these incidents, they will feel their thoughts and emotions turn darker. I don't know of any study on this but I think one could be done.

Likewise,  if someone eats an animal that has been tortured and cruelly killed by an insentient machine their thoughts and emotions are going to turn darker, or stay darker if they already are dark.

I'm no scientist but this seems really logical to me.  I think a vegetarian diet is likely to help someone feel better about themselves and their lives in general. BECAUSE OF THE WAY animals (and fish, increasingly so) are farmed today.

And for the same reason I try to stay away from cow's milk.

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I looked at this topic closely over the years, again and again. I spent many years not eating meat, even now I don't eat much. The amount of meat that many people would put on one plate I cook and share among my whole family. It's so dense that we really don't need to eat 300g of it in a sitting imho.

 

Something that has come now though is the tale of history. Our bodies, brains and teeth show the story that our ascension to be the greatest plague ever known pivoted around the moment when we took up tools  and started eating meat. We are so successful as a species because of our everything eating, the true omnivore. That has always been our genetic strategy. There is no early society which did not prize meat for it's nutrients and fat which were critical in the development of our  bodies and brains as a species as well. When you look at a gorilla you see it's forehead sloped back, no large frontal cortex like us. There's not enough fat in it's primarily vegetarian diet to support that. Gorillas could have been us if they chose different foods, we possibly even came fro the same spoonful of the primordial soup. We really are what we eat.

 

If we look at the genetic strategy of cows we see a very different strategy. Eat grass, grass and more grass and grow as big as possible doing that. Despite it's simplicity cows have actually won the genetic race in in mammals. There is more cow biomass than there is human on this planet. We like to (or don't) think that we are the preeminent species, but in fact we are outdone by cows and by numbers we are certainly outdone by chickens. If there is any reason not to eat meat this is it. We are destroying our environment farming these tasty treats and eating them in gluttonous amounts.

 

Ironically the real threat to us as a species comes from the plastics we are using to package our food. Plasticisers are bad news and their endocrine disruptors are a deadly threat that is mostly ignored. Future generations will look back and mock us, like we do the Romans who used lead as water vessels.

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Vegetarianism, veganism, etc. all literally would not be impossible without modern life making them completely unnatural.  For starters our bodies need protein to function and you can argue all your want about rice and beans but I don't see a single vegan farming them.  Instead you lot rely on the exploitation of 3rd world farmers to produce those crops, put them on ships that are so awful for the environment that merely 8 of them hurt the Earth more than every single car combined, etc. and the same is true of everything else you eat like tomatoes which are no longer considered a seasonal produce at the supermarkets because of international trade.

 

Reality dictates that if you want to be as kind as possible to the things you consume that you either have to live a hunter/gatherer life and roam such a vast amount of land that by the time you return everything has regrown to the way it was or you farm it for yourself settling for the food you produce as it comes in.  Obviously roaming around stealing plants and killing animals won't be tolerated today so that leaves farming.  Now if you're going to be a farmer who only wants to produce for themselves instead of commercially to reduce your impact on the earth you're also going to want the smallest farm possible to leave room for the rest of nature as well which is impossible without animals for protein.  It might be as simple as using chickens for pest reduction, shooting a kangaroo that hopped your fence, etc. but without those animals your life would soon end unless your farm's footprint greatly expands to accommodate those protein producing crops like rice and beans.  Now instead of a small sustainable farm that leaves room for the rest of nature you've chopped down a bunch of bush, mass planted non native species of plants,  have to fight back against the now homeless animals that are starving to death, etc.

 

So 3rd world exploitation combined with fucking the entire planet over or merely locally doing so, not only is vegetarianism/veganism unnatural they're the morally incorrect dietary decision to make if you love animals or the earth in general.  You don't have to like it but unless you're willing to kill yourself to end your impact on the earth altogether you have to accept that we're going to have an impact by merely existing and your existence is way worse overall than that of a meat eater who sources their food locally when it's in season.  Now obviously not all meat eaters are that nice to the Earth but my comments about vegetarians/vegans are still universally true so you may want to stop taking your opinions from drugs and think for yourself instead.

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 I'm not sure if I'm following you here,  Ethnoob. You didn't mention two huge veg sources of protein that is easily locally grown in many areas: potatoes and grain- like oats. I lived for about 2 years on a diet of only (organic and locally grown) potato & oat protein and I felt like superman in terms of strength and energy.

Even breathing and walking has a destructive impact on the earth from a certain way of looking at it. However, I am not gonna give up my efforts to reduce my own unnecessarily destructive and over-consumptive habits because of the fact that I will never be perfect.

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10 hours ago, Northerner said:

I looked at this topic closely over the years, again and again. I spent many years not eating meat, even now I don't eat much. The amount of meat that many people would put on one plate I cook and share among my whole family. It's so dense that we really don't need to eat 300g of it in a sitting imho.

 

Something that has come now though is the tale of history. Our bodies, brains and teeth show the story that our ascension to be the greatest plague ever known pivoted around the moment when we took up tools  and started eating meat. We are so successful as a species because of our everything eating, the true omnivore. That has always been our genetic strategy. There is no early society which did not prize meat for it's nutrients and fat which were critical in the development of our  bodies and brains as a species as well. When you look at a gorilla you see it's forehead sloped back, no large frontal cortex like us. There's not enough fat in it's primarily vegetarian diet to support that. Gorillas could have been us if they chose different foods, we possibly even came fro the same spoonful of the primordial soup. We really are what we eat.

 

If we look at the genetic strategy of cows we see a very different strategy. Eat grass, grass and more grass and grow as big as possible doing that. Despite it's simplicity cows have actually won the genetic race in in mammals. There is more cow biomass than there is human on this planet. We like to (or don't) think that we are the preeminent species, but in fact we are outdone by cows and by numbers we are certainly outdone by chickens. If there is any reason not to eat meat this is it. We are destroying our environment farming these tasty treats and eating them in gluttonous amounts.

 

Ironically the real threat to us as a species comes from the plastics we are using to package our food. Plasticisers are bad news and their endocrine disruptors are a deadly threat that is mostly ignored. Future generations will look back and mock us, like we do the Romans who used lead as water vessels.

I agree with you, Northener, about the plastics. Reducing our use of plastics (esp. nonrecyclable types) is a laudable gift to future generations. In my mind, however, going vegetarian is an equally beneficial gift to oneself and others mainly because it  represents "living the good life" to billions of third world citizens. And is being sold to them in that way.

Where I live in India I witness meat-eating spreading like wild-fire amongst people that are not currently undernourished. They don't need the meat as food or as nutrient, they want it for the status that 1st world countries have given it. The newly affluent indians are eating meat to copy us, to put it crudely. (I suspect the same is true in China). This is my opinion, of course, I haven't read any studies confirming it. The history of India as a largely vegetarian country proves that meat is overrated as a nutrient. They are a billion people that untill recently farmed very little meat food. If any are undernourished it is due to poverty and not a lack of meat.

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We shouldn't be using plastics in contact with food at all, they are the opposite to life... they are truly death, left for billions of years and dug up. Even the linings of tinned foods often contain BPA, as well as the hight temp blow molded bottles that we are putting all drinks and milk in. Glass bottles and paper cartons are a thing of the past unfortunately because of economics, but they were an excellent choice for packaging foods. Then there's even phthalates in almost all shampoos and conditions and even bio-threats being added to toothpaste. We have truly lost our way. Autism and chronic autoimmune diseases are rising in occurrence like never before. The writing is already on the wall.

 

When we identify what the threat to ourselves is it keeps coming back to globalism. The economics that dictate that an hour of my work here on a global scale is worth 100 hours work of someone in Africa, for example, yet we can trade on that scale makes it grossly unfair. Where communities once lead a frugal lifestyle as one with nature they now find themselves impoverished and destitute. Globalism brings the reality of how the other half lives to them and of course they want to be the others. If that means owning iPhones and wearing bling or other media portrayed western culture is the go, including gluttonous meat eating, that is what they will aspire too. They don't realise that we have so much because of the exploitation of people like them. Scary stuff. Localism should be the what the world wants, not more globalism.

 

My father never drank, never smoked, never did anything "bad". He was an engineer and had the good life. He never waned for anything. Yet he died at 60 from colon cancer from eating too much meat and processed sugars. It's a morbid testament to how important balanced lifestyle is. That not only meat being an issue, but everything we put in our bodies. I have had similar realisations on psychedelics, it's like they demand balance from us us people, or that we already know that we require balance and that we just need a nudge in the right direction.

 

 

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On 31/12/2018 at 5:32 PM, Ethnoob said:

So 3rd world exploitation combined with fucking the entire planet over or merely locally doing so, not only is vegetarianism/veganism unnatural they're the morally incorrect dietary decision to make if you love animals or the earth in general

 

Whoa.... wait..... ummm..... :blink: Na, sorry, I find this a little confusing. Perhaps your take on the cause of issues like our health problems due to diet, the welfare of animals and the state of the environment is coming from a completely different place to mine. 

 

How do you conclude vegetarianism/veganism to be unnatural and morally incorrect?

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