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DiscoStu

consciousness is a fundamental property of the universe

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i dont think so. consciousness requires memory and memory is really only present in living things, and to a much more or less relevant state.

memory is ore than jsut the persistent configuration of state of matter, memory implies information so it needs an information processing system to turn memory from a simple persistent state to a meaningful pattern. this processing requires life itself.

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the 'universe' in any of its manifestations (theoretical, religious, mythic, metaphysical) and anything inside it (including consciousness itself) is a concept of consciousness. consciousness is unable to know what is fundamental (viz. absolute knowledge) but nevertheless consciousness is itself fundamental to - that is, a fundamental property of - what it considers (viz. constructs) to be 'universe'.

Edited by Micromegas
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I think about this a lot, but I'm going to struggle to put my thoughts in order.

Do objects we consider inanimate exist in a timescale that is incomprehensible to us, giving us this impression?

How can we imagine particles being conscious? Or galaxies? In the same way, how can a bacterium comprehend our consciousness? 

It seems there is collective consciousness at many levels. After all, we are a collection of individual cells. Are we all mere particles in some greater organism? Does an individual cell possess any awareness?

All I have is questions, and poorly formulated ones at that.

There seems to be validity in the saying "as above, so below". Galaxies are similar to atoms in some way. Why would consciousness not follow these rules?

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We are the cosmos trying to experience and understand itself, in our variety. 

I'm wondering, does my leg have consciousness? Or only my brain? Or does my brain actually seat my consciousness at all. "I" feel like I'm centred in my skull mostly. Need to think about this more...

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OK. What I'm trying to say is I think it is necessary for consciousness to be a universal and underlying property of this universe or how else could it be possible for us to experience consciousness at all? It would violate the laws of the universe. Wouldn't it?

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As a determinist I consider consciousness as being nothing more than a delusion created by our minds as a result of evolutionary pressures. We all know that consciousness can be altered by things like medication, health and death; furthermore we currently have brain scanners which can predict our decisions before our so called 'consciousness' mind can make them. It's hard to stomach but I personally believe we are all just expressions of an infinitely complex universe and that consciousness is nothing but a reductionist term used to help explain the human condition. So no, I don't think that consciousness is a fundamental property of the universe.

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OK. What I'm trying to say is I think it is necessary for consciousness to be a universal and underlying property of this universe or how else could it be possible for us to experience consciousness at all? It would violate the laws of the universe. Wouldn't it?

we don't know what the laws of the universe are, we first have to make them up and then fit phenomenon into these structures of thought. talk about consciousness is always in human terms, so we are already boned. the universe is a concept; we are talking about the 'universe' in this thread as as if it were something already absolute, but it isn't. there is no underlying property we could ascertain once the distance from subject and object is sufficiently advanced to have the concept 'consciousness' in our minds. from that point, we can't get out of the problem. this is why 'consciousness' is fundamental to 'universe' because 'universe' requires the distance between subject and object inherent in consciousness to make something known objectively - the universe, that is. this is actually a very beautiful situation if what we create is magnanimous but instead consciousness wreaks havoc.

 

 

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 Consciousness is the concept of conscious being. Conscious about any thing is being in a particular relationship of conscious creation with that thing. Realization about things is placing particular energy dynamics in mutual relationships, created by the self. Being conscious is creating a Universe of relationships, involving the mind. More conscious means better development in the energetic relationships created, resulting in betterment of the being alive experience..
 Realization of a thing is a particular experince as well.. Realization of a human body cell is the conscious experience as well - as much conscious as you allow it to be .. Communications with a human body cell consciousness might not be necessarily a separate entity thought exchange, but also a unity realization.
 As above, so below of course means the Sun and the Earth,also the Universe and the Multiverse all are in conscious relationship with the self.. as much as the self is comfortable with differnt forms of energy exchange patterns and communication. Being conscious is as diverse as one is able to allow it !

Any moment of consciousness is different than any other and placing them in timelines together is only by choice..

 

 

Edited by mysubtleascention
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8 hours ago, Micromegas said:

we don't know what the laws of the universe are, we first have to make them up and then fit phenomenon into these structures of thought. talk about consciousness is always in human terms, so we are already boned. the universe is a concept; we are talking about the 'universe' in this thread as as if it were something already absolute, but it isn't. there is no underlying property we could ascertain once the distance from subject and object is sufficiently advanced to have the concept 'consciousness' in our minds. from that point, we can't get out of the problem. this is why 'consciousness' is fundamental to 'universe' because 'universe' requires the distance between subject and object inherent in consciousness to make something known objectively - the universe, that is. this is actually a very beautiful situation if what we create is magnanimous but instead consciousness wreaks havoc.

 

 

Agreed, we are talking conceptually. And also agreed, there is no absolute, everything is subjective. But I don't need to understand the totality. If I possess consciousness, then it is possible. 

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On 5/11/2018 at 8:35 AM, DiscoStu said:

consciousness requires memory and memory is really only present in living things,

All living things are conscious, aware of their environment, but all except us live in the moment,

fish have a notorious lack of memory but are still conscious beings.

My dogs "know" lots of stuff, but they don't know that they know it. So I dont see what memory has to do with it.

We are possibly continuous consciousness from previous lives, that our current ego denies us memory access to.

Anyhow all that is part of the unknowable that we must accept . Memory is not important, a distraction actually.

 

To live a fulfilled magical life, enriched and expanded with the medicines from the plants, and capable of all our possible potential,

its best to be open to the concept that everything seen and unseen has an energy vibration that is connected.

Not an accident, but a plan to create the conditions for life. 

Dose enough cactus and you will become aware that there is more than just light and heat radiating from the sun.

There is information of all sorts, forces that created cell division and shaped ALL life. 

The plan of life is encoded into starlight, and shines thru the known universe.

Chicken and egg stuff, but if this vibrational energy- light, is evolving planets to produce beings like us, conscious and self aware, 

then consciousness may be the fundamental essence of everything. And Starlight its pure form.

 

Memory is a distraction to awareness. When we want to experience beyond/ more than our self, we tune into the present moment.

When we are working with the plants, we experience fields of information beyond memory. 

Plants are conscious, but have no memory. 

The conscious universe is so huge, with so much happening in each milli-moment ,that the past and the memory of it,

would need a separate universe for each moment to retain. 

So there is just the great eternal conscious moment in all its forms.

Not to be known, but experienced, by being present.

The great gift of being part of all its joys and horrors.

 

The nature of the universe is cold, emotionless and indifferent, everything constantly killing something for its sustenance.

Everything having cycles of destruction. Just cause its heartless, doesn't mean its not conscious.

Just as everything in the material world has a particular vibration, ie the particles in diamond vibrating faster than those in sandstone.

We are created to emit the vibrations that the physical world cannot. 

It is our job to raise the spectrum of vibration, by creating the higher frequencies of love and compassion.

This Earth is not fulfilling that, due to the distractions of greed based consumerism, a very "not conscious" paradigm.

"Loving" a diamond necklace, is not the same vibration as loving a stranger.

And even if you disagree with my thoughts,

you would have to agree that more selfless love would make the Universe a more conscious place.

 

Oh, I digress, sorry, its too cold to get out of bed. 

 

 

 

 

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 What is memory.. if not our present creation of support for our "now" moment.. A timeline needs its alignment of "past"moments as well as "future" moments to function as such. We create our "past" along with the "now" moment and we create our "future" as well. Whatever we succeed in anchoring as personal reality, that is our incarnational construct of consciousness.
 The "creation" of reality experience is a transmission of frequencies and the "choice" of reality experience is a reception of frequencies -  the time construct realization is based on intermission/vibrating amplitudes; one-s and zero-s/ and the perception of energy exchange, yin-yang..


If a fish or a plant does not have memory as we perceive the memory phenomenon, that only means this particular incarnational construct of consciousness is experiencing time differently, creating or choosing differently their moments of reality as the fish or the plant we perceive..
 What we perceive as cruel, by eating another living organism.. might be perceived as a great gift of compassion on the side of the eaten chicken for example, if we allow that construct of consciousness to become our reality and the experience of bliss going along with it.. Same goes for plants.. or jihadists believing in their heaven.


Consciousness is whatever you decide it to be.. A gift of personal choice freedom ! 

Plants communicate consciousness by variety of different frequencies, which humans perceive and integrate in their reality.. beauty for example.. or fragility. If human consciousness is in altered state,it may go in non-verbal commumications far and beyond what was expected possible with a plant interaction. 
 
 Human reality is holographic in nature/ see Michael Talbot / and it is changing along with perception, so it is different for everybody and coexisting too. Consensus reality for a group of people is only a part of the whole reality spectrum present. Multidimensional means co-existing. To be perceived as a consensus reality though, elements of it must exist recognised by all participants. Most of you know the moment when you want to explain a plant-related experience with great enthusiasm to someone and suddenly there are no words as if the mind goes blank ?! The consensus reality is impossible in these moments because we don't know a way to relate our reality to that other person's perception. Perception changes
along when consciousness changes.. The transmission of that other person's consciousness in the moment of impossibility had been creating a reality, which we've received and accepted as non-consentual for our intended consensus reality.
Shamans are well versed in relating consensus reality to such people, having the training in various methods of doing so.
Not only shamans can expand other people's consciousness though..gurus,masters of various sorts etc. have their methods as well.. 

After a session with a shaman for example , the consciousness of the client had been guided to a consensus reality of creating in a slightly different incarnational construct of energy exchange dynamics . Healing is just a natural result of incarnating in a different timeline and the resulting different harmonic resonance in the body of the client.

Consciousness is the innate reason for the human body's state of wellbeing!

 

 

 

Edited by mysubtleascention
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On 11/05/2018 at 10:46 PM, EightySeven said:

As a determinist I consider consciousness as being nothing more than a delusion created by our minds as a result of evolutionary pressures

then why is rape illegal?

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On 13/05/2018 at 5:40 AM, mysubtleascention said:


 What is memory.. if not our present creation of support for our "now" moment.. A timeline needs its alignment of "past"moments as well as "future" moments to function as such. We create our "past" along with the "now" moment and we create our "future" as well. Whatever we succeed in anchoring as personal reality, that is our incarnational construct of consciousness.
 The "creation" of reality experience is a transmission of frequencies and the "choice" of reality experience is a reception of frequencies -  the time construct realization is based on intermission/vibrating amplitudes; one-s and zero-s/ and the perception of energy exchange, yin-yang..


If a fish or a plant does not have memory as we perceive the memory phenomenon, that only means this particular incarnational construct of consciousness is experiencing time differently, creating or choosing differently their moments of reality as the fish or the plant we perceive..
 What we perceive as cruel, by eating another living organism.. might be perceived as a great gift of compassion on the side of the eaten chicken for example, if we allow that construct of consciousness to become our reality and the experience of bliss going along with it.. Same goes for plants.. or jihadists believing in their heaven.


Consciousness is whatever you decide it to be.. A gift of personal choice freedom ! 

Plants communicate consciousness by variety of different frequencies, which humans perceive and integrate in their reality.. beauty for example.. or fragility. If human consciousness is in altered state,it may go in non-verbal commumications far and beyond what was expected possible with a plant interaction. 
 
 Human reality is holographic in nature/ see Michael Talbot / and it is changing along with perception, so it is different for everybody and coexisting too. Consensus reality for a group of people is only a part of the whole reality spectrum present. Multidimensional means co-existing. To be perceived as a consensus reality though, elements of it must exist recognised by all participants. Most of you know the moment when you want to explain a plant-related experience with great enthusiasm to someone and suddenly there are no words as if the mind goes blank ?! The consensus reality is impossible in these moments because we don't know a way to relate our reality to that other person's perception. Perception changes
along when consciousness changes.. The transmission of that other person's consciousness in the moment of impossibility had been creating a reality, which we've received and accepted as non-consentual for our intended consensus reality.
Shamans are well versed in relating consensus reality to such people, having the training in various methods of doing so.
Not only shamans can expand other people's consciousness though..gurus,masters of various sorts etc. have their methods as well.. 

After a session with a shaman for example , the consciousness of the client had been guided to a consensus reality of creating in a slightly different incarnational construct of energy exchange dynamics . Healing is just a natural result of incarnating in a different timeline and the resulting different harmonic resonance in the body of the client.

Consciousness is the innate reason for the human body's state of wellbeing!

 

 

 

This is in no way meant to sound like I'm being a smart arse, it's an honest request....but could you translate any of that in to plain English by any chance? As a neuroscientist and practicing Buddhist with views somewhat unorthodox for a neuroscientist, I honestly still can't make sense of barely any of that, but it sounds quite intriguing. 

Honest question mate, no offense intended brother :)

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2 hours ago, DiscoStu said:

then why is rape illegal?

I'm not sure what your argument actually is? I don't think that the existence of suffering (as a consequence of rape) constitutes an argument against determinism.

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delusion: an idiosyncratic belief or impression maintained despite being contradicted by reality or rational argument, typically as a symptom of mental disorder

 

consciousness is a delusion

delusions aren't real (contradicted by reality)

suffering is a product of consciousness

suffering isn't real

laws created as punitive measures against suffering 

laws created as punitive actions against delusions/unrealities

 

if consciousness is a delusion what's the difference between someone going to jail because they rapist vs someone going to jail because you imagined they raped you?

 

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suffering (or atleast aspects off it) seem to be real imo

 

take a bug, put fire on it, watch it suffer

if you don't believe me, compare the results before and after prolonged fire. there will be clear difference in states

suffering is a drive to resist this change of state

Edited by DualWieldRake

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17 hours ago, EightySeven said:
19 hours ago, DiscoStu said:

then why is rape illegal?

I'm not sure what your argument actually is? I don't think that the existence of suffering (as a consequence of rape) constitutes an argument against determinism.

Hi EightySeven, please correct me if i'm wrong. The way I understand determinism is that there is no free will, that everything essentially boils down too cause and effect. 

I understand how a certain upbringing, can cause someone to look on others, in a way that brings about the potential for rape. However do you really believe a rapist has no say in the matter, that they are not responsible for their actions, because those actions where inevitable? 

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i don't think you are grasping what eightseven is saying it has nothing to do with rape lol. he means determinism in the sense that consciousness is a by-product of physical evolution, which is controlled by physical processes, which does not bear on the question of free-will, which a metaphysical question. for example some scholars believe that the development of cooking kicked cognitive evolution along in humanoids in the early pleistocene. whether we had 'free will' to decide to cook is metaphysical, but physical changes in the brain are 'determined' by other physical processes that obey certain types of biological law over which humans have no control (ironically biological laws that consciousness has 'invented' way to talk about in order to understand itself). in any case consciousness as a 'delusion' has nothing to do with the 'realness' of reality because as i already noted we are not in a position to understand 'reality' separate from consciousness, we always have to produce it through some type of 'work'. once awareness of being conscious is gained (as opposed to simply 'having consciousness'), even determinism becomes an idea after the fact, and reality itself then is only what you produce. Immanuel Kant established as much. But the reality of consciousness is 'worked up' by consensus of consciousnesses in relation. delusion was probably the wrong word. consciousness is the vehicle of its own self-revelation, the foundation of which can only be the unarticulate-able opposite of itself, which is what eastern religions are driving at. but consciousness in relation produces a 'solid' type of work through the production of conceptual frameworks of high objective determinancy and only in relation, which to some extent is administered through law, as in court cases involving rape if you will. Someone going to jail because they are a rapist is a part of conscious reality by the application of knowledge of consistent structures of intersubjective consciousnesses working together (i.e. to produce community ethics); as is the consensus of the scientific community a portion of whom argue that consciousness is a by-product of physical evolution and find proof to this effect; as the is the consensus of those who determine the universe is alternatively God or dark matter or whatever. Someone going to jail because you imagined they raped you would have to match with the products of the work of a vast number of intersubjective consciousness in concordance, which is hard to do (i.e. the function of law would 'investigate' that case to seek consensus). We function by virtue of consensus in consciousness which is part of what subtleascention was saying. consciousness does not function outside of relation very well, if at all, and conscious without company as it were produces nothing, which bears on the idea of what sound a tree makes falling in a forest.

 

Edited by Micromegas

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Just so you guys know I don't live my life as if it were deterministic,  obviously rape is a bad thing and any action which causes human suffering must be avoided if possible. This rape argument is an appeal to emotion and is therefore fallacious in nature. I don't think the universe cares whether an action is immoral or not, it is what it is. Nice responses by the way.

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On 19.05.2018 г. at 8:20 AM, Cubism said:

it's an honest request....but could you translate any of that in to plain English by any chance?

 

:):)

 

Tuning to the frequencies I'm picking from your particular expression, I can place my incarnation in correlation with the consensus reality, you're offering in conversation.This interaction is resuling in my new incarnation, carrying the modified reality of my being. 

My cosciousness is the result of the relationship dynamics of energy echange, happening in my being, experiencing your related to my incarnational construct post.:)

 

 Consciousness is the vibrational vector equilibrium resultant of the energy exhange relationships between all elements in one's reality. The significance of all these ellements vary, related to cultural factors and personal choices. Any of these elements is free for multiple interpretations in the context of reality significance, in any moment. Choosing how these elements are combined into reality is happening in every "now moment" while a being incarnates. Deciding how all these elements are combined is the critical factor for the resultant energy exchange dynamics, happening in one's
reality, in any "now moment" of incarnation. Consciousness as a phenomenon of the incarnational dynamic, is experienced as being alive.

 

Rearanging relationships between elements in one's reality results in rearangement in the reality itself.
If a new meaning is acquired to a relationship between elements in one's reality, as often happens after a session with mushrooms or cacti or other plants, consciousness is experienced differently and the incarnational construct is different - being alive is different.

 

Some beings can alter their consciousness on demand and that means changes in the relationships between the elements of thir reality.

Non-human consciousness means that the elements of that being's reality are not positioned in a way any human is positioning them while incarnating, which is resulting in a non-human incarnational construct.
A fish consciousness incarnates in that particular aquatic life form we perceive, though that doesn't mean that fish being is not experiencing reality and arranging the elements of that reality in a specific range of variations, very different than the ones related to humans.
A human reality involving the fish being consumed for food, might also include an element of consciouness exchange between the two beings involved in the interaction of consumption, similarly to the Ayahuasca interaction or Peyote interaction, where non verbal communications are happening. The communications happening vary, but are generally accepted as learning experience for the beings incarnating as humans and teaching for the reciprocal side . That only means the phenomenon is realized as such within a human incarnational construct of consciousness and placed as an element of
that construct in a particular relationship with the rest of the elements in human reality. If the consciousness of that consumer human being is positioning the interaction with the fish in a reality where fish is blissful if consumed, and that becomes a consensus reality for some reason between human and fish, then the fish will be incarnating in bliss, for that particular human's reality. That will be the conscious experience for that particular human, eating that particular fish, the same way non-verbal communications become part of human reality when interacting with peyote for example.

 

Some human beings can consciously arrange the elements of their reality in a harmonic relationships, the energy exhange dynamics of which result in incarnating experience within the vibrational diapason of human love.
Health is a harmonic state of being, achieved when a particular relatioship dynamics between the elements of human reality are in place too.. These dynamics might be achieved by a conscious arangement and willingly, as happens for healers and shamans for example. And these states can be related and transfered to other human beings and thus make changes in their consciousness on the same principle music and sound changes consciousness and reality.

 

Vibrational alteration and attunement is the main principle involved in Ayurvedic wellbeing, utilizing the knowledge about food intake vibrational frequency combinations , crystals and minerals vibrational property applications and massage techniques involving differing vibrational attunements for different conditions and body types.

 

In scientific experiments human cell receptors respond to molecular stimuli and a particular frequency stimuli with the same biosynthesis./see Dr.Bruce Lipton/ That means vibrational frequency can result in functional and structural change of the body.

 

The personal timeline of any particular human making any experiment is part of their incarnational construct and reality srtructure involved in the experiment itself. 
How harmonic a reality is depends on what kind of harmonic relationship arrangement is placed between elements of that reality, which is a function of the consciousness and the incarnational construct of the being experimenting.
If the relationships between those reality elements are not harmonic, incarnational and karmic changes lead towards new state of being which is harmonious.

 

Thus wellbeing is a direct function of consciouness.:):)

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by mysubtleascention

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Thanks. I'd be lying if I said I understood a lot of that, but in essence I think I get what you mean at least in part.

:)

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On 5/11/2018 at 6:31 PM, Glaukus said:

I think about this a lot, but I'm going to struggle to put my thoughts in order.

Do objects we consider inanimate exist in a timescale that is incomprehensible to us, giving us this impression?

How can we imagine particles being conscious? Or galaxies? In the same way, how can a bacterium comprehend our consciousness? 

It seems there is collective consciousness at many levels. After all, we are a collection of individual cells. Are we all mere particles in some greater organism? Does an individual cell possess any awareness?

All I have is questions, and poorly formulated ones at that.

There seems to be validity in the saying "as above, so below". Galaxies are similar to atoms in some way. Why would consciousness not follow these rules?

maybe we should view it as electricity. not all matter is electrically conductive, yet electricity exists in some would say a "fundamental" manner.

so too not all matter can become conscious yet consciousness can exist in some matter in a fundamental way.

this is just a spontaneous thought i haven't put much effort into .....

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