Ascesis, monasticism

[Tøn]

Has anyone had any inclination towards this kind of practice as a result of their work with entheogens or their life path in general?

Following 12+ years of abject alcoholism and polysubstance abuse, I was introduced to an ashram by a friend. Whilst I am no longer involved with the place, I must say that it was instrumental in allowing me to become and stay sober, as without the practice of meditation and subsequent fascination with Hindu philosophy I would never have been able to catch enough of a mental break to get the hell away from that state of being.

 

The first ashram retreat I attended was a week-long exposition of the yoga-sutras of Patanjali.   No other retreat or event I attended ever went as deep into any kind of actual philosophy as this one.

Long story short, the instruction offered up is that one should practise meditation intensively and follow a series of ethical and behavioural observances in order to keep the mind pure and focused on the acquisition of a lasting state of non-dual thought and experience.

Over the years I have become more and more intent on practicing these principles to the best of my ability, whilst staying in touch with reality and society as a whole. Whilst I definitely want to piss off into the bush indefinitely, I lack the survival skills and general know-how. The middle path I have come up with is to work towards dedicating a good chunk of time towards permaculture etc etc when I can find an appropriate venue, create a bush-temple kind of vibe in order to satisfy my desire for the forest-dwellin' lifestyle I so crave, and figure out ways to remain involved in the community so I don't go off the deep end.

 

I am curious as to how many people have felt drawn towards a similar kind of practice in whatever modality they have an affinity with? I think the pivotal experience for me was that of ego-death in my late teens, which left me very lost for a long period of time. I have happily realised that the philosophies of Shaivism and advaita vedanta quite neatly describe the disconcerting experience I had all that time ago, and make me feel that there is a peer group out there for me somewhere, even if they're all engaged in their meditations in the deepest forests of India

 

Any other eremetic types or aspirants around here? I imagine that, given the underlying theme of shamanism and the amount of permie/sustainability types logging on, I might be in luck

 

[immanuel]

Yes i follow the samatha (concentration) Buddhism and was taught about using Jhana for spiritual awakening by a Thai tradition. I am close to achieving first jhana in my daily meditations, and feel this is a best approach for me as I become mentally unstable. I love spiritual things, Buddhism and the real pursuit of awakening. It gives my life the meaning it deserves.

Edited March 14, 2018 by manuel

[Mapacho]

Thai forest lay follower under ajahn brahm here 

If I was single and without a daughter I'd be a monk, no doubt.  Alas here I am.  Meditation retreat junkies are a thing haha.  I'm looking forwards to a rains retreat when I get the chance.  90 days of noble silence...I can only wistfully imagine the stillness and clarity I would be able to fall into.  Despite this I have found there is plenty of space available in lay life to develop very powerful practices of ethical conduct and meditation, which requires prioritising practice and hacking away at the unessential.

Throughout my life I could never find a core to myself, personality wise, and it is still clear to me that so much of what we think and feel and perceive is conditioned by the aggregates.  Shamanic practice seems, atleast in the shipibo tradition, to follow a similar path in the beginning (as do many other religious philosophies).  I gravitate towards shamanic medicines because they seem to be so symbiotic with the dhamma that the Buddha espoused.

All the best for your paths!

 

[Tøn]

Yay, replies! I like hearing about the paths others have been drawn to.

 

@manuel, I can relate-- I have to be careful with my meditation practice as I have the tendency to become very unstable and, as much as I hate to admit it, semi-consciously use it as a tool for dissociation rather than integration. Hours and hours of mantra repetition etc. I've had to scale it back as it became very apparent that I was incredibly unbalanced. Too much of a good thing, who'da thought?

I'm a bit confused about the concept of the jhanas-- how does one know when they've reached the first or other stages? Is it a constant in your meditation, ie do you progressively find yourself returning to a similar state, picking up where you left off?

 

@Mapacho, I feel that, if it were actually a viable life path in Australia, I would definitely be living as a monastic. I've had to concede to the idea that, karmically, the option just isn't available to me for a reason, as in-- I'm not meant to be there at this stage. I had to accept this quite begrudgingly after trying for about a year to seek out a lifestyle that would allow me to follow that path. Now I just have the sneaky idea that perhaps, if I fulfill my wordly obligations, I might be able to piss off into the forest in my later years. I'm also doing my best to cultivate my moral character and find a good middle-ground approach to meditation and living in the world. I've definitely learned that being too focused on meditation makes it excruciatingly difficult to function in society, which has shown me exactly why monastics are required to live in that way. One may realise more about the fundamental nature of reality, but that juxtaposed with the absurdity of modern life makes it impractical to practice- for me at least.

My psychologist suggested looking into shamanism, so I've been doing a bit of reading on it lately. I'm still a bit lost as to where to start with finding reliable/factual information on the subject as, where I'm living, all I can find is this 'core shamanism' rot which seems to be new-age cultural appropriation and a great way to make shit-tons of cash. Do you have any reading recommendations?

 

Thanks!

 

[Mapacho]

If your meditation is getting unstable in the deep end it is truly because you don't have enough focus on metta, loving kindness.  This counts in actions, thoughts and speech off the mat, as well as specific meditation or mantra focus.  

Attention makes the mind very strong and clear.  Loving kindness does multiple things but one is that it inclines it in the right direction.  Deep insight without the power of loving kindness can bring about intensely disassociative experiences.  People with too much of the former with not enough of the latter often get this "unstable" experience and sometimes even develop temporary or recurring psychosis due to their response to practice; a kind of egoic rebound stress.

Long story short, metta is crucial for stability and safety in strong practice, especially outside of a monastic environment.  Even in monasteries the Buddha referred to it as a rapid path to jhana/samadhi.

It is invaluable to develop a powerful metta practice.  It can get to the point that you can feel powerful visceral loving sensations in the body towards others, even complete strangers.  It keeps things safe!

As for shamanism, I like stephen harold buhner's approach to plant relationships.  He has some great books.  

And your future aspirations, who knows, it is possible.  Make all the merit you can.  Figure out how to turn obligation into devotion.

Plenty of advice here, possibly unsolicited, just offering    

Edited March 20, 2018 by Mapacho

[immanuel]

The first jhana is to my own knowing as once the mind becomes completely still then it becomes very peaceful then waves of bliss bring it into a fully transcendent state so it is unmistakable in that sense

[Mapacho]

Sounds about right to me.  The 5 senses completely cease as reference points in the 1st jhana.  It'll come to me when its ready.  I used to think meditation would get me there, but I've since realised that all of the other factors are crucial to its emergence.  I now focus on becoming an embodiment of sila.  Virtue is the seed of shamatha.  

[mysubtleascention]

 

 

 

 

 home is where heart is -
 centered monkish body  
 .. looking 
 
 nuns watch cloisters !

 

 

 

 

[Tøn]

Thanks heaps for the continued dialog, I've been returning to the content of this thread a lot during my working days. I must say, I've met some challenges in regards to meeting others with compassion in some instances, but have also strengthened my bonds with other workmates. One of the more pernicious tendencies I gravitate towards is anger under stress, and the attempt to justify my position in context to disputes in the workplace.

 

@Mapacho, your advice regarding the cultivation of metta was very timely, and was very much a lightbulb moment as to 'what to do now.' I find the unsustainable part of my practice to be 'going for broke,' focusing on entirely spiritual contemplation, which turns the outside world into an annoyance and hinderance, and very much increases my tendency to dissociate. If we're to talk of raga/dvesha, my primary attachment is to the ideal of a wholesome life in the country, and aversion to the mechanical/industrial monstrosity of the suburbs.

In light of that, it comes as no surprise that I have been drawn to a series of warehousing jobs. I'm very well aware that I will keep repeating the cycle until I learn the lesson, and the development of loving kindness in the context of a harsh industrial environment with all of its' loud noise and frenzied activity is actually what I need at this point in my life.

I am often very quick to complain that I feel an attenuated sense of 'love,' or an inability to connect with my heart as such; I feel compelled to explore that further and figure out why. That, of course, is an ongoing process, focused as much as anything on shifting the locus of control back to centre in regards to the way I interact with others in the day to day.

 

I happened across the concept of Nonviolent Communication last night, which I think will serve as a good launching point (ie from the intellect inwards,) from which to explore further. It seems like a satisfactorily tough exercise to undergo, particularly putting these principles into practice without expecting anybody else to change their ways to accommodate the epiphanies I've already had in reading about it. It seems quite close to a lot of the Buddhist teachings from what I've read, and is very likely based on it. Buddhism seems a bit more practical in regards to applying to everyday life as compared to the more extreme forms of Hinduism I've been drawn to-- maybe it's time I look into it a bit more, as my desire to be a part of the world rather than away from it is increasing.

 

As for the Jhanas, I'm still intrigued. I have no way of telling if some of the 'peak' experiences I've had fit within that framework-- so maybe that simply means, I haven't hit the threshold yet

 

 

[immanuel]

It is hard to explain for me and I’m no expert on jhana as such, but to my own meditation jhana has represented a space of conscious awareness I can return to regularly and where my mind becomes still enough that bliss begins to flow throughout the body/consciousness as a natural reaction to that. I believe this represents access concentration in the following description. I believe the second jhana involves a deepening through a letting go of that bliss.

 

Check this out it helps to draw a line as to whether ones peak experiences have been related to jhanic absorption or sometimes preparation for it: https://www.dharmaoverground.org/discussion/-/message_boards/message/5781249

 

I did mention a visionary dream state I experienced once before which was by all means transcendental but a way of purging emotional pain and in that way unrelated to first jhana, so again I’m not sure what that means in this sense either.

 

Personally I have always referred to Thai forest as well

Edited March 25, 2018 by manuel

[bardo]

Knowing this is a transient experience and all is impermanent is one of the most basic and freeing of truths, it is evident in all and everything, anything beyond this is simply different forms of interaction with the phenomena.

[bardo]

I feel the best way to spend the duration is largely in service to others tho those who take, steal, kill etc are the greatest teachers of impermanence and therefor these acts can only be perceived as negative when one chooses to view it as so, through the knowing of impermanence bad and good no longer exists unless one brings the concept into existence.    

No matter how one interacts with the phenomena they are earthly teachers as well as students.

[Tøn]

This was linked in the thread @manuel posted, I'm making my way through it slowly... http://www.dhammatalks.net/Books/Ajahn_Brahm_The_Jhanas.htm

The description of nimitta is interesting, I have a relatively active visual aspect to my meditation, those stages describe what I see pretty damn accurately. I'm playing around with sustaining focus on phosphene activity as an object of focus at the moment, it gets pretty intense, though I guess that's the point- eventually being able to hold focus on the light until it becomes all-encompassing.

 

Once again, the knowledge shared in this thread has come to mind a lot at work. A lot of what I'm doing at the moment is simply being able to hold myself in a relatively high-pressure environment without giving into rage or despair.

 

I like what you said about service, @bardo-- I've started volunteering again recently, it's really enjoyable to connect with the greater community in the spirit of serving humanity.

Sometimes I feel like the higher knowledge part ('those acts can only be perceived as negative when one chooses to view it as so,') eludes me but I've also come to the conclusion that I have to be at this point, learning these things, in order to consolidate that knowledge at a later date.

Edited March 28, 2018 by Tøn

[immanuel]

Yeah, that’s interesting that nimitta fits the description. The light becoming all encompassing sounds like that first jhana type of description. It is a state of bliss and stillness that comes from holding the mind in stillness for periods of time. I couldn’t think of a better description than that from Ajahn Brahm.

[Mapacho]

On 3/23/2018 at 3:32 PM, Tøn said:

I feel an attenuated sense of 'love,' or an inability to connect with my heart as such

 

- wonderful, keep exploring, you will find how to loosen the bonds more and more.  The vulnerable heart is an open heart and an open heart can absorb all pain it encounters with forgiving love, its just scary to be so open.  It is a gradual process.

 

Buddhism seems a bit more practical...

 

I don't know much about hinduism.  The dhamma is eminently practical, an act of learning to align one's view of everything with the truth of how things are.  Feeling this calling is precious and is considered to be the fruit of good karma.

 

And jhana, will come when you are tranquil and still enough. 

  

 

 

 

Ajahn Chah would talk about meditating by a still forest pool, and how when he was very very tranquil, absorbed in the breath, non reactive to sense noise, the animals in the forest so rare to be seen, would come to drink.  If he got excited by their beautiful forms, they would notice and startle, vanishing within moments.  If he maintained that tranquility, not minding if the animals come and went, they would remain and drink their fill.  Sometimes incredibly rare creatures would come, the most timid of all who would wait until the other animals had tested the pool.  He learned to be still enough that they would come and drink without noticing his presence, and he would allow them to come and go, knowing that if he felt any excitement they would sense it and flee.  

 

Chah said that these forest animals were like the nimittas, coming into awareness.  If our awareness responds even with an "oh!", they will flee.  And the beautiful most rare animals, they are the jhanas.  So Chah said to sit like a still forest pool, not minding who comes to drink.  The story makes clear that if we chase jhanas and make them important to our mind, we will create too much excitement and deny ourselves their presence for mroe than a few moments, so we can learn to be very still and tranquil, and then if they come they will come, we are not bothered.

 

Brahm said this to me on my last reatreat when I told him of the bliss and light and how I loved it so much but knew it wasn't jhana and he said this:  "mapacho, be happy with what you have.  If this is all you get for the rest of your life, be happy with that".  I took that in deep after 9 days of silence.  Then he said with his voice filled with cheekiness, "...and then maybe, just maybe jhana will come" and then he laughed.

 

It makes me laugh because it is such good advice for me at this time, and I think for many others.  Its alot like when Morpheus when he says to Neo after he visits the oracle, "you were told exactly what you needed to hear".  Brahm is the oracle.  Long story short, don't focus on nimitta, jhana.  Focus on loving kindness, stillness and equanimity, perhaps best if its in that order too.

Edited April 5, 2018 by Mapacho