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Alchemica

Experiments getting better sleep.

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Some experiments trying to get better sleep, rough notes I kept while I was quite struggling so excuse the poor referencing, I'm still struggling getting sleep at times.

 

I get some effects from Jujube/Zizyphus seed. It's worth a shot for people.

 

Finally got around to trying some Jujube seed extract. Didn't get much from the fruits. I like it, initially I blended it with a bit of Ashwagandha. I don't get worthwhile kava effects anymore but this is quite nice at a decent dose. I'll likely use it for sleep (wasn't expecting it to be strong enough to consider using for sleep)

 

It has been also traditionally used for psychiatric disorders in Chinese and Korean medicine. Traditionally, one of the main functions of jujube, as described in herbal medicine, is to benefit our brain by calming down the mind and improving quality of sleep. Jujube possesses neuroprotective activities, including protecting neuronal cells against neurotoxin stress, stimulating neuronal differentiation, increasing expression of neurotrophic factors, and promoting memory and learning.

 

The plants secondary metabolites modulate GABAergic activity and the serotonergic system, interestingly the postsynaptic 5-HT1A receptors. Intriguingly, it exhibited significant effects on both the expression and activation of GABAA receptors. It improves memory impairment through BDNF/TrkB signaling and is suggested to have a protective effect against chronic depressive disorders


The Zizyphus seed/hops/chamomile is nice, more chill than sleep for me but last night I added valerian and lemon balm. Once again, for someone who has severe GABAergic dysregulation/tolerance and sleep issues, it's quite anxiolytic but not so pronounced in it's sedative action for me. I'll get there eventually.

 

"This clinical investigation on safety and effectiveness of a herbal compound made of valerian, hop, and jujube opens interesting perspectives on usage of herbal compound to manage primary insomnia." https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28603433

 

Explored some valerian by itself as a sleep aid for a bit. Once again, anxiolytic, not exactly sleep promoting for me. Added things like lemon balm etc. They're something you can tune to.

 

Interestingly, the use of combined valerian and lemon balm phytomedicine extract provides a viable treatment option for hyperactivity, attention deficits, and impulsiveness, in addition to nutritional and lifestyle modifications

 

Valeriana officinalis extract is a popular herbal medicine used for the treatment of anxiety and sleep disorders. The anxiolytic and sedative effects are mainly attributed to the modulation of GABAergic transmission but the selective interactions of valerian extract and valerenic acid with Group I and Group II mGluR may represent an alternative explanation for the anxiolytic properties of this plant. Binding affinities could also be demonstrated at some of the screened melatonin (ML1 and ML2) and serotonin (5-HT4e, 5-HT6 and 5-HT7) receptor subtypes. A single oral dose of valerian modulates intracortical facilitatory circuits. While none of the valerian extracts displayed sedative effects, they did produce pronounced anxiolytic and antidepressant effects in one study. Valerian root extract may reduce emotional, physical, and behavioral symptoms of premenstrual syndrome.

 

Its pharmacological activity may result from interactions among multiple constituents rather than any one compound or class of compounds. The primary active constituents include valerian’s essential oil and its corresponding sesquiterpenes (valerenic acid), the iridoid esters (valepotriates)

 

Throughout history, lemon balm has been used medicinally to heal wounds, prevent and treat cold sores, soothe nerves, improve sleep, and strengthen the memory and the mind. The ancients are known to steep lemon balm in wine, a traditional medicinal dosage form, for fevers and to uplift the spirits.

 

Lemon balm contains more than 100 chemicals including the flavonoids (quercitrin and rhamnocitrin), which have an antioxidant effect; phenolic acids and tannins, primarily rosmarinic acid; the 7-glucosides (apigenin, kaempferol, quercetin, and luteolin); caffeic and chlorogenic acids; triterpenes; and volatile oils citral a, citral b, (10%-30%), and citronellal (30%-40%) that render its lemony flavor and aroma.

 

Some evidence indicates that valerian preparations may have a mechanism of action and clinical characteristics that differ from the benzodiazepine-related sedative/hypnotics, making them more suitable for long-term use.

 

A one-time valerian 1600mg dose, often used to treat insomnia, does not appear to impair driving simulator performance after acute ingestion.

 

How a few things impact at the EEG level:

 

"Under diazepam the power in the theta frequency band decreased while it increased in the beta band. In contrast, some plant extracts showed an increase of power in the theta frequency band, but no increase in the beta frequency range. Valerian extract, which was administered in both studies, displayed an increase of power in the delta and theta band and a decrease in the beta band.

 

Kava-kava preparation caused a decrease of relative alpha power in the vigilance controlled EEG. This effect was more pronounced 6 h than 2 h after drug administration. In a polygraphic sleep study two dosages of a Kava-kava preparation, given for one night, did not alter the sleep stage distribution significantly, while the sleep spindle density was increased.The most consistent single effect was a power increase in the theta band. Fronto-centrally a decrease in power in the high frequency beta band was also observed 180 minutes post administration

 

Valerian Absolute power in the theta frequency band increased 120 minutes post administration Power increases were also observed in the neighbouring delta and alpha bands

 

Total power remained unchanged under Lavandula extract 120 minutes post administration, and there were only very few changes in the different frequency bands. 180 minutes post administration total power decreased in the fronto-centrallead under RT and RS conditions. This power decrease could also be seen for absolute power in all frequency bands

 

Total power increased 120 minutes post intake of Passiflora extract in the occipito-temporal lead. Other changes were essentially restricted to an increase in theta power

 

120 minutes post Lemon Balm administration total power increased fronto-centrally under resting conditions (RS). At this time point power increases were observed with a maximum in the delta, theta and slow alpha band occipitotemporally. For the fronto-central lead these power increases extended from the theta to the beta frequency band.

 

Californian poppy: 120 minutes post administration absolute and relative power increased mainly in the theta and alpha frequency bands'"

Edited by Alchemica
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I get sleep battles in intervals, mainly during flares

 

Chamo and valerian will chill me down, but won't add to any sleep effect if I put my head down though.

 

Kanna if dosed /timed right can help ,but I'm cavalier so haven't honed it for myself yet(yep that looks right) ... Lol.... It's a two way street though.

 

I was trial growing the lime balm cultivar this year. To be honest I am not attracted to its smell like lemon balm, haven't made a tea yet.... Been holding off.

 

I like lemon balm tea, I like the taste, can't really put a finger on any effects though... Sorta calming, no noticeable sleep effects(Edit - lemon balm did help a bit with constant mild fever, which Meds have under better management)

 

(I am a "hardhead" with a lot of things, and metabolize things in crazy ways)

 

 

 

 

Edited by waterboy 2.0
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I just eat melatonin when I can't sleep.

 

6mg, 20 minutes later... Game over.

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I tried melatonin, makes me flare up... Much to my dismay. Dunno if it affects across the spectrum of autoimmune things though... Which is broad as Fck.

Edited by waterboy 2.0

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That's mad hey...it's not even a drug.

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Lol... The immune system can do mad shit. Damn right evil if it turns on you:wink:

 

Melatonin also has effects on the immune system in a few areas, defo in areas that I get hit in.

 

 

Edited by waterboy 2.0

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Melatonin gives me weird dreams (without greenery).  I also find it works better in smaller spaced doses - like 1.5mg initially. which is enough to get me to sleep, then another 1.5mg on my bedside table for when I wake up in the middle of the night.  There is a slow-release version branded Circadin - but its prescription only and relatively expensive.

 

 

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I found that I was using melatonin a little too much at one stage, couldn't easily sleep without it. Now it just sits there, going dusty on the shelf.

 

I think of bunnies riding sheep across endless fields of green (seriously), next thing I know I am one with the bunnies passing over the sea of green and....

 

hey, what's that irritating sound? Ah, it's my alarm to wake up.

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6g of kratom and a nice joint will put most people to sleep pretty quick. Agitated, vivid dreaming sleep, but sleep all the same.

Certainly don't recommend it everynight though.

Edited by MeanGreen

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Only  few days of having an evening session with Lotus embryo each evening instead of high dose chamomile which was helping get to sleep but not improving sleep quality.

 

While I was mainly using this as a mood tonic, this is used in TCM for insomnia but I find I need high doses initially. While being on a nicotine patch has possibly made sleep easier, I'm finding I'm finally getting to sleep with ease and getting a more solid sleep (instead of being broken I get sleep and don't wake up multiple times a night), with results better than I got with high dose Zizyphus (when stronger meds like low dose quetiapine doesn't work for me anymore -it's pure side effects), I also enjoy the Lotus state. It's a reasonably short lasting state but there seems to be more lasting effects. Literature suggests there is an up-regulatory effect on monoaminergic and GABAergic systems

 

Intriguingly, neferine is not just serotonergic and active at 5-HT1ARs. These Lotus alkaloids display a weak cannabimimetic- type behavioural effect In vivo studies demonstrated sedative, and analgesic effect of N. nucifera embryo extract, and sedative and antidepressant effect of neferine Neferine displayed affinities for δ-and µ- opioid receptors with Ki values of 0.7 ± 0.1 and 1.8 ± 0.2 μM, respectively, and was determined to be a weak δ agonist

 

Decided to explore the dose-response curve for Lotus embryo. Is more a better experience?

 

You have to account for the 'plant spirit synergy'. It's more than neferine. You've got a high flavonoid/polyphenol content and spectrum of alkaloids, all of which seemingly have activity. These alkaloids seemingly require a bit of citric acid etc to liberate a good dose. That helps with the extreme bitterness, too.

 

To me, pushing the dose even higher seemed to induce more hazy uninteresting sedation over an enhanced emotional and spiritual state. There's a middle ground moderate dose pleasant space where you're simply at ease with yourself and able to work through life better, a bit of spiritual attunement etc. While a more moderate dose is anxiolytic, pushing it became seemingly more traditionally sedative. It became duller, benzo-esque - I just had a bit of an uninteresting unenlightening sleep - over catalysing a peaceful state of mind.

 

While TCM dose are quite low, a suggested dose on the pack is 10g. That's where I'd start for explorations. I can't particularly notice that dose. I'm not keen on going extremely high dose, Neferine displays hypotensive effects and inhibits platelet aggregation. It has actions on the heart - neferine displays anti-arrhythmic action due to its inhibitory effect on K+, Na+ and Ca2+ currents of the myocardium and inhibitory actions on hERG channels so you need to use caution. That said, it seems to be relatively safe for long-term treatment

 

While neferine did not affect muscle coordination, it dose-dependently inhibited locomotor activity in mice. It induced hypothermia in mice and apparently potentiated thiopental-induced sleeping time. With the seeds, which contain neferine but at lower levels, in an animal model night-time activity reduced by 53%, but total sleep time was increased by 60%. The sleep-promoting effect was associated with up-regulation of GABAA/GABAB and serotonin receptors. There are suggestions that the Lotus alkaloids exert sedative–hypnotic and anxiolytic effects via binding to the GABAA receptor and activating the monoaminergic system but research on neferine itself seems to be less suggestive on a GABAergic MoA.

 

 

Other uses of the embryo covered here

 

Contraindications:

This is not well studied. It use as a food and lack of serious indications is a good start but caution is required. While the embryo alkaloids have not been specifically studied, lotus leaf alkaloids has a strong inhibitory effect on CYP2D6 isoenzyme activity in vitro. This seems to be due to the more classic aporphine alkaloids over the bisbenzylisoquinolines. That said, neferine is predominantly metabolised in the liver and undergoes initial bioconversion by CYP2D6 into liensinine, isoliensinine, dimethylliensinine, and dimethyl- isoliensinine. There is also known involvement of CYP3A in neferine metabolism

 

Lotus might lower blood sugar levels in some people. Watch for signs of low blood sugar (hypoglycemia) and monitor your blood sugar carefully if you have diabetes and use lotus as a medicine.

Edited by Alchemica
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I have found magnesium supplements to help me. I get to bed earlier than normal and get a better sleep also. 

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I've been revisiting this trying to improve sleep by changing macronutrient profiles a bit.

I was finding restricting carbs with higher protein intake was seemingly messing with sleep even more.

 

Dietary intake habits (affecting the state of nutrition) are perceived to be one of the factors predisposing, causing and consolidating sleeping disorders

 

When it came to one study [1], two thirds of the subjects with sleep difficulties were characterised by an inappropriate state of nutrition. Sleep disorders could have been influenced by the low energy value of the subjects’ diets, as it has been shown that lowering the energy intake significantly decreases melatonin, a low intake of assimilative carbohydrates could have an influence on pinealocytes and the sleep-wake cycle. Similar results were seen in [2] where beans/carbohydrates and dairy were associated with improved sleep quality.

 

"It was ascertained that, despite the insufficient energy value of the subjects’ diets, too much energy came from proteins

 

[they] showed insufficient energy value, insufficient intake of assimilative carbohydrates, fibre, K, Ca, vitamin D3 and water with simultaneous excessive intake of Na, P, Fe, Zn, Cu and vitamins: A, B2 , B6, B12, PP, and C"

 

Inbalanced intake of energy and nutritive value could have affected the proper synthesis of neurotransmitters regulating sleep-wake cycle and melatonin hormone.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29265779
https://www.cureus.com/articles/16904-influence-of-dietary-intake-on-sleeping-patterns-of-medical-students

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My take on good sleep is that it is like most things in life, it takes some practice and consistent routine. 

A lot of exercise early in the day always helps.  I can't stand any light at all, it really disrupts my sleep. I wear an eye mask, I've just upgraded to the best one ever. It's made by Manta sleep. It has adjustable eye pods that you can over on the band to get exactly the right spacing.  Makes a huge difference.

Any amount of alcohol makes my sleep worse. Weed puts me into a deep sleep but I don't dream.

I often find a small amount of starchy carbs just before bed makes me sleep really well.

The main thing I notice is that if I stay in a consistent pattern of trying to wind down before bed, and keep to a routine, my sleep is great. It's nothing new.

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