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DualWieldRake

'Clone' names

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Can everyody stop putting random names on their cuts please.

 

I'd like to start a discussion on this topic.

People now call all kinds of plants names for different reasons, to me it looks like some youtube/housewife thing

 

Unless you took the cutting from the original plant yourself there is zero chance you can be certain the cutting came from where it says it's from.

It comes down to pure trust, since no matter how distinct of a cutting you may have nature will and has already facilitated many more excactly the same looking plants (unless you are doing some crazy GMO shit)

 

You may have a great specimen, but send it to me and see how it may look different with conditions having been changed.

So whats the point in naming then, for personal reasons i totally get it but other then that i think its probably just a point of confusion for all parties involved, that is if it wasn't just a marketing ploy in the first place

 

Your thoughts?

 

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I was about to re-name my PC to  'MINDBENDER-4000'  but now that you mention it, I guess I could refrain from adding to the madness.

Edited by Halcyon Daze
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nomenclature is wildly debated across the board when it comes to plant breeding/collecting for sure aye! Not just katcoose.

Giving a plant a name of where /who you got it from adds providence and helps you remember the good time you had withe that person and the arvo you got it.

A purist will disagree because they'll say "You're not professional and are doing little to explain it's bloodline.".

Personally, i have a rough idea of what it is to start with ie bridgy/scop/pc etc and i am quite content to label my katcoose according to the name of the keeper of the garden that it came from. For ezample, all my 'J' cttings came from Jim at Cactus country. It reminds of the day hanging with him and Interbeing., larking around being eaten by mozzies while i drove around the little tipper with one of his jack russels in the catcher collecting all the cuts that we were taking home. The rest is history.

Now from a breeders perspective most anal retentive types will stipulate otherwise but hey i'm happy with my labeling the way it is because im not in it for the money.

Your level of where you wanna stand in a marketplace versus backyard pertyness is what will make your decision the way i see it

 

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3 hours ago, Halcyon Daze said:

'MINDBENDER-4000'

Halcyon, have ya got some of that MINDBENDER spare! Seriously mate I'll do anything.

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3 hours ago, DualWieldRake said:

Can everyody stop putting random names on their cuts please.

I think the problem is not the random names, its the cuts them selves that are random. It takes years of hard work to develop a truly signficant plant, something that is unique, something that deserves a name.The rest are marketing ploys, and like most marketing ploys, it's deceitful, it implies they are special, detracting us from the ones that are. Then again thats business, there is a reason why merchants where considered low-lifes in feudal times. Of cause in your back yard ya can call your plants whatever you like, for that matter ya can call me what ever ya like:P.

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If names/ labels are true and accurate then that's one thing,  but false labeling would be pure sacrilege.

 

It's only a matter of time before some bright spark tries to pass off a piece of PC labelled as CSD for instance.

 

Or even worse, a shitty old piece of cereus labelled as Lumberjack LOL 

 

 

 

Crop, you can have all the mind bender you want, but I must warn you, I've already changed it's name to AssBuster4000 and they're selling like hot cakes.

 

Just how badly do you want one?

Edited by Halcyon Daze
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^ see plenty of ads on gumtree with people selling Cereus with the ad called San Pedro etc

f*ckers

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 I'd love to see what someone would pay for the first cut of MINDBENDER-4000 on ebay...lol

 

Stick some dick into it and it may fetch more Halcyon:lol:

 

Provenance as eth so beautifully put it, but that also importantly has a history and source.

 

Is the source any good is always worth a question. That's a collectors quandry.

 

Seems to me some folk will buy anything watching ebay and Gumtree.

 

My labels stay.

 

Edited by waterboy 2.0

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Don't give me any funny ideas WB...

 

Limied Release! -MindBenderDick4000, get it while stocks last! Results guaranteed permanent.

 

$500 per cm

 

 

EUP-TJT-1.jpg

Edited by Halcyon Daze
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I agree WB. I guess that's why it's worth getting involved on places like this, it's the modern version of joining the local plant society, At least you can get to know and trust who you're trading with :)

 

I like to label plants with some parentage info, for instance: Ben (Bridge) X John (Peru), I can already imagine what various qualities the offspring might have.

 

Doesn't hurt to keep track of pedigrees etc, and while most clones don't really need any fancy name, a fancy name does't make them fancy at all.

 

If the label is accurate then you can read up on it's background, quirks, rep etc. It may help you decide to NOT buy  one or breed with it. As long as the label is not false/ misleading, it's helpful. 

 

What to do about shonky labels is another kettle of fish altogether though.

Edited by Halcyon Daze

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If you didn't receive it labeled don't label it. It is that plain and simple. Now, if you grew it from seed. Yes, please name it if you think it is worthy of sharing to the community. There is nothing worse than trading with another person and thinking you are getting a particular clone of a cacti for example and in reality you have a hybrid from that clone. I don't care if its a seedling has the CSD in its lineage 2 times... it doesn't make it CSD. Even worse... the specimen has no genetic relation to that clone whatsoever. I am all for labeling unique specimens you have grown from seed or collected from the wild. But, if I have two identical looking specimens I at the very least want to know I can breed those two specimens together if I really wanted to. Right now, I have a variegated form and a non-variegated form of a single clone. I could sell either as something different as the phenotype is markedly different, but it is still the same exact genetics in each one. 

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The question as to why a plant merits recognition as a clone is certainly one that might want to be asked. Too many clones seem to get named on the simple basis that someone owned them (despite lacking any real difference from what is available in horticulture). 

Too many new names simply confound clarity and contribute nothing of value but it is also worth noting that names only stick when other people accept and use them.

However, keeping track of those hybrids is valuable for all of us. 

 

Labels are a real problem. Metal solved my sun related problems but not the human generated errors. Largely those have been due to lazy visitors picking them up to read but then carelessly not putting them back in the same place. The only thing I've found that works for me is burying the tags under some gravel so that I can find them when I need them. 

 

MindBenderDick4000 looks a lot like Knize's "new San Pedro".

 

Edited by trucha
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A registry would be a neat thing.  Somewhere that listed the name, the source and a few comments about that particular clone (or variation of).  A wiki perhaps.  Sure, it would/could be wildly inaccurate and probably downright amusing but... interesting nevertheless.

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No no no no no. No clone names.

 

Only DNA testing from china and some clear classification linking attributes to parts of the genome.

 

I'm leaning towards variation goes across the whole spectrum with everything and anything in between, with peaks somehow.

I like the idea of naming those peaks (species probably) and just naming them a mix (ie: y x z) if mixed or .sp(p) if the mix consist of too many.

 

Sure it's fun to name your favorite plant or whatever. I even named 3 myself.

 

I just see too many clones beeing named and claimed, it makes me wonder how real it is.

Can i really buy one of the popular ones and expect what's in the description

 

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Many registries exist for many different plants. Personally, what matters to me is that I'm getting new stuff and not simply repeat buying old stuff. With that said, with no registry or group overlooking the naming process there is no stoping two people from naming their cacti from two different breeding programs the same name. I could name one of my seedlings I have growing CSD and another person could come up with the same name 1000 miles away. An easy fix might be to simply put the last name or nickname of the person that named the specimen with the specimen. 

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3 hours ago, DualWieldRake said:

I like the idea of naming those peaks (species probably)

This is probably not going to make me popular!

Botanical Taxonomy has been more about ego than science for way to long. The scientific definition of a species is; if two organisms can reproduce, and the product of that process is fertile, they are of one species. So brigdesii and pachanoi are simply regional variations of the one species, sub-species at best. Thats the science. Unfortunatly humans love to pigeon hole, and there seems to be this strong desire to personaly name things. They usualy come up with some vague justification like; "this one has different colour hairs around it's flowering parts, it must be a new species". Of couse if we apply that mentality to humans, red heads would be their own species. I know some of you that have dated a red head before are nodding your head right now, but it's simply not true.

Ego has already made a horrible mess of botanical taxonomy, do we really want it to make a confusing mess of our hobby too?

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1 hour ago, Crop said:

This is probably not going to make me popular!

Botanical Taxonomy has been more about ego than science for way to long. The scientific definition of a species is; if two organisms can reproduce, and the product of that process is fertile, they are of one species. So brigdesii and pachanoi are simply regional variations of the one species, sub-species at best. Thats the science. Unfortunatly humans love to pigeon hole, and there seems to be this strong desire to personaly name things. They usualy come up with some vague justification like; "this one has different colour hairs around it's flowering parts, it must be a new species". Of couse if we apply that mentality to humans, red heads would be their own species. I know some of you that have dated a red head before are nodding your head right now, but it's simply not true.

Ego has already made a horrible mess of botanical taxonomy, do we really want it to make a confusing mess of our hobby too?

I'm confused... are you trying to say that naming a clone to keep track of it is going to make the hobby a mess or that not naming a clone is going to make a mess of our hobby. I need a bit of clarification on this one.

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Clone names are not taxonomy though.

 

Lol... Taxonomy is a dark art though,no doubting  that. Taxonomists are special people.

 

 

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43 minutes ago, Inyan said:

I'm confused... are you trying to say that naming a clone to keep track of it is going to make the hobby a mess or that not naming a clone is going to make a mess of our hobby. I need a bit of clarification on this one.

Hi Inyan, I know it's frustating, but I'm going to answer your question with a question. Do you think it would make it more, or less confusing if we named every single seedling? It would certainly help us keep track of them, but we would have to add millions to the list each year. Sure this is an extreme exaggeration, non the less this is exactly the trend we are debating.

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@Crop When every single seedling starts being named it would make it less confusing if there was a registry or record of those names with descriptions of the seedlings as one could look up to see if that name was already used before adding a new and possibly the same name to the already long list of names.

 

So, let me ask you this... if there was a purple striped flower on a variegated pachanoi hybrid that grew to 9 inches in diameter and only grew 3 feet and flowered in virtually every locality would you want to have that specimen properly named and labeled? Would  you want 100 other different specimens to carry that same name? There is either order or there is chaos. Someone either gets to name their specimen or they don't. The bottom line is that no one can keep my from naming each and every seedling I have. No one has that power. I can then offer each and every seedling for sale if I wished by the names I have designated for them. If you choose to buy seedlings with those names from me then you can be assured of getting the right clone. If you buy them from someone else... well who knows what your getting. Perhaps they chose to name their seedlings the exact same names I used. So, who gets to have the power to name their seedlings? Do we voluntarily give that power or right away to another?

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28 minutes ago, Inyan said:

So, let me ask you this... if there was a purple striped flower on a variegated pachanoi hybrid that grew to 9 inches in diameter and only grew 3 feet and flowered in virtually every locality would you want to have that specimen properly named and labeled?

Ha Inyan, if you had read the thread I already said signficant plants should be named. In fact this is were I would like to see everyone putting their effort into. Collaborative breeding programs is one way to accelerate this very time consuming process.

 

38 minutes ago, Inyan said:

a registry or record of those names with descriptions

I think there is merit in this, but we are along way off needing it. First we need to breed some superior strains. How many cuts do you have now that perform significantly better than wild harvested?

 

45 minutes ago, Inyan said:

The bottom line is that no one can keep my from naming each and every seedling I have.

Again mate I said else where everyone can name whatever they like.

 

48 minutes ago, Inyan said:

I can then offer each and every seedling for sale if I wished by the names I have designated for them.

Again I already said thats business, and there will be no end to the 'I've got to catch them all' suckers that buy them, but if what your selling is not truely special, by naming it, you are implying that it is. Look mate, each to their own, but for me there lies an integrity issue. I know people have to make a living and I sort of get things like historical plants, but if we let the market dictate, as we are now we will end up with a confusing mess of thousands of plants with mediocre genetics. Imagine what we could accomplish if we all put greed and obsessive collecting aside to concentrate on making the best plants better.

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They do it with orchids a lot, but only the better ones get officially registered with the RHS. The second rate ones get passed off cheap, still labelled with parentage information, but not registered under a name.

 

There's more to it but let's not mix up official registration with popping a label in your pot.

 

Here's a hypothetical.  Suppose you have two nice short spine Peruvianus plants, both in bloom on the same night. You want to cross one onto a bridge and have to choose between the two Perus.

 

One is a real fat blue beauty that originated from your dear friend Alfonzo's house in the heart of Alice Springs. The other is a slightly skinnier plant that came from some random guy on eBay, it not really as vigourous and you just don't like the overall aesthetics as much. It's still a decent plant but not really as nice in your opinion. Only good thing about it is the spines are even shorter than that first ss peru.

 

You decide that you'd prefer to use the pollen of the first ss peru with the bridge and store the pollen of the other one to cross with your scop 'Hulk' that's set to flower in a couple week's time. Hoping to get a very short spined hybrid with the Scop.

 

But both of your Peru's are short spined and you want to keep track of things properly. Here's where parentage info is extremely helpful for yourself and others in the future.

 

You decide to label with some extra info but the tag is too small to fit all that info, so you decide to call your favored peru 'Alfonzo' and the other one Super Short Spined Peruvianus or just 'SSS Peru' . This helps you keep track of what's what. 

 

When you have finally grown out all your seedlings. There is a high amount of variation.  Some are short spined, some are long, some have no spines at all.

Lucky you kept the labels to remember which is which especially the SSS Peru, one of the babies is soooo beautiful and completely spineless. And is now your favourite plant ever that you decide to name in honor of your favourite pet dog 'ZEKE' who recently died and you plant the cactus right where you buried the dog.

 

The other siblings mainly have short spines, so you sell a couple on ebay labeled as Scop 'HULK' X 'SSS Peru'. A couple others even have long spines so you trade one with a mate and simply label it Scop x Peru because you think it's irrelevant that it's parent was a short spined Peru, when it has such long spines.

 

So far you have used 3 different labels for the same cross: 'Zeke' , Scop 'Hulk'  X 'SSS' Peru, and Scop X Peru. You must realize that all these different labels are factual and correct and you couldn't stop people from doing it either which way if you wanted. 

 

 Some labels have more info some have different kinds of info etc.They're all valid and they're all useful. BUT THERE'S MORE...

Edited by Halcyon Daze
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Now let's look at the other cross you made...

 

The seedlings are all labeled Bridgessii X Peru 'Alfonzo' and you sell a couple on ebay labeled as such to two different guys.

 

All is fine and well until you notice your dear friend Alfonzo is selling his cuttings under the label Peru 'Alice Springs'. You simply update the labels on ebay to become Bridge X Peru 'Alice Springs' and all is well. 

 

Except for the first two buyers who have a now-obsolete label. 

Does it really matter? Well yes and no...

 

One guy loses his label to a lawnmower accident and the parentage info is lost forever but no big deal really, he likes the unknown cactus hybrid and that's all that matters to him

 

The other guy just happens to DO SOME REASEARCH and learns on social media that the name 'Alfonzo' is synonymous with  Peru 'Alice Springs'

 

Which is now quite significant because it has gained a big reputation for having a very potent fragrance at night. Anything with Peru 'Alice Springs' in it's parentage is now considered rare and highly sought after and can fetch a good price, especially his clone that is crossed with a bridge. He's really happy to have the parentage info accurate and intact. Although he does wonder about the bridge. 

 

Little does he know that the bridge was actually Eileen's long lost sister but some idiot along the way thought labels were for loosers and didn't bother telling someone what it was and the info was lost and the world never knew what an amazing plant that one particular hybrid really was.

 

And that's the end of the story :(

SAD CLOWN FACE!!!!!!!!

 

Tell me one instance where less or NO info on the label was preferable to having good reliable parentage info.

 

Just my opinion anyway, please correct me if I'm wrong. And by the way please be assured that this commentary is most certainly NOT directed at anyone or the opinion they hold.  It is pure hypothetical postulation. Use it as a sounding-board but don't take anything as being directed personally.

Edited by Halcyon Daze
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The bottom line as I see it is we are powerless to control what individuals do. Sure, we can whine about it, but in the end we have no real power to do anything about it. People will label as they wish. 

 

@Halcyon Daze Now your concern that a specimen sold under one description might be relabeled and sold as another... well what do we think happened with the famed LumberJack? That specimen was found in a store if memory serves me correctly and  likely has counterparts genetically identical to it being sold and such is life. 

 

I can see where someone might find one of your seedling  Bridgesii x Peru 'Alfonzo' that is not labeled anymore with that information, but after some time growing it and developing a history with it... for whatever reason that fellow decides to name this now unknown seedling. That kind of stuff happens and I don't think we can do anything about it. Labels go missing sometimes right at the sowing stage. Heck, some seeds are even sold in mixes where you don't have a clue as to what is in the mix parent wise. So, what can we do about it as individuals? Do we not name individual clones that are found to be worthy of introduction? How do we know one of our cuttings is being relabeled and sold under a different name without DNA testing? Sure, we might suspect as the two look identical... but can we ever be certain? 

 

If I raised up a seedling that looked identical to CSD for instance. If I was unethical i could simply sell that seedling as CSD. Now, lets say I am ethical and I don't sell it as that. But I do sell it and someone else thinks it is a CSD that has simply not been labeled and relabels it CSD in their mind... again we have confusion. However, I don't see how we can stop this from happening if the two specimens in question can pass as each other. 

 

I like the idea of a registry. Here is another good one for example... http://www.daylilies.org/DaylilyDB/

 

 

Edited by Inyan

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In a world without clone names the chaos would be worse.  

 

I remember a plant I saw once and now want it to breed with a plant I have.  

 

"Hey does anyone have a cut of that knobby pachanoi?'

"Which one?"

"I think EG posted a picture of it once."

"This one?"

"No it was knobbier."

"This one?"

"No."

 

I can't imagine as a collector living in that world.  Pure frustration.  

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