Theobroma cacao psychotherapeutic potential

[Alchemica]

Wondering who else has explored this?
 

"Caffeine significantly increased participant ratings of Feel, High, Like, and Want items of the DEQ; the A, BG, and MBG scales of the ARCI; and the anxiety and arousal scales of the POMS. Theobromine increased scores on the “Want” item of the DEQ at 250 mg, and had very few effects on the ARCI and POMS. The highest dose of theobromine increased ratings of Feel on the DEQ and produced dysphoric effects on the ARCI. Theobromine appeared to dose-dependently increase ratings of Dislike (i.e., increases at 500 and 1000 mg)."
 

Theobromine responses differed according to dose: it showed limited subjective effects at 250 mg and negative mood effects at higher doses. It also dose-dependently increased heart rate. In secondary analyses we also examined individual differences in the drugs' effects in relation to genes related to their target receptors, but few associations were detected.

Conclusions

This study represents the highest dose of theobromine studied in humans. We conclude that theobromine at normal intake ranges may contribute to the positive effects of chocolate, but at higher intakes effects become negative.

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3672386/

 

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I feel with the sceletium etc, I can tap into a more positive heart-space with the mixture of methylxanthines. I definitely want to enhance Feel. Don't want to induce negative reactions, though...

I'm finding 200mg cacao alks + a hearty dose of cacao powder for the flavonols opens heart-space. Then you add the admixture.

I'm trying damiana 10:1, sceletium 20:1, blue lily 10:1 maybe even heimia. 5-HT2A agonists are golden in combo but trying to do this legally...

Suggestions welcome!

[Alchemica]

For me, the cacao alkaloids combined with cacao powder have been a tool of reconnection. To Heart, to feeling, to community. While my initial effects were profoundly empathogenic and connecting, subsequent doses have not been. It's like this medicine addresses dis-ease of Heart and Spirit to bring you in alignment so is perfect for cases of illness but once you are connected and aligned, it refuses to keep taking you deeper. It leaves you in a position of health to do more work... Today I am just resonating with some raw cacao nibs at a decent level, rosemary tea and a little dose of alkaloids. It's pleasant and wholesome.

[Alchemica]

Today I explored some cacao alkaloids, 200mg with 1500mg chelated Mg (300mg elemental Mg). It seems to add to the hearty feeling in quite a grounded yet interesting way. I'd guess the minerals in the Cacao powder, particularly the high concentration of Mg, could be synergistic with the alkaloids through NMDAR modulation etc. Will look into it more.

[Alchemica]

Not so much psychotherapeutic but a food for the mood chocolate I've been playing with on a couple of occasions now:
 

I've found I respond much better, on an acute basis to L-tryptophan supplementation than 5-HTP. It makes a nice mood chocolate, too. Exploring that to go with my hops space which was nice but could be more serotonergic and hearty.

Blending immune modulating, microbiome adjusting, anti-inflammatory, BDNF boosting, NO regulating, cerebral hemodynamic blood flow improving, cognitive enhancing flavonols which likely regulate microglial reactivity with cacao minerals like Mg and a good anti-inflammatory neuroprotective fat like coconut oil plus a selected dose of L-tryptophan, sweetened to taste makes a soothing mood chocolate. You could add some probiotics as it's cooling for added benefits, cacao powder is easily spiced with probiotics and this is done commercially - it's a great prebiotic! I've tried this stack a few times now, generally a before bed thing for me but also a good chillout. I find 200mg-500mg L-tryptophan nice but my serotonergic system has been battered by antidepressants in the past.

L-tryptophan benefits may be through immunomodulation, altering tryptophan catabolism pathways while 5-HTP doesn't have those properties to the same degree. 5-HTP's more directly serotonergic but I believe so much illness lies in this immune system pathway which is often unaddressed.

Pro- and anti-inflammatory cytokines mediate indoleamine 2,3-dioxygenase activity; this enzyme drives metabolism of tryptophan and kynurenine in the central nervous system and degrades serotonin.

Deficit schizophrenia is accompanied by a highly specific defect in IgM isotype-mediated regulatory responses directed to the TRYCAT pathway. Lowered IgM regulatory responses together with activation of the TRYCAT pathway may contribute to neuroprogression, negative symptoms, and deficit schizophrenia. All in all, a highly specific defect in the compensatory (anti-)inflammatory reflex system (CIRS), namely, natural IgM-mediated regulatory responses, may underpin deficit schizophrenia.

There is an increased breakdown of kynurenine towards its neurotoxic branch in bipolar disorder. A shift towards the hydroxykynurenine arm of the kynurenine pathway may be associated with poorer memory performance due to its effects on neuronal functioning and neurogenesis in the hippocampus. Studies implicate a mechanistic role of central inflammatory processes in cognitive functions in adults with bipolar disorder.

Edited July 9, 2017 by Alchemica

[MountainGoat]

I am interested to explore this. Thanks for the info Alchemia. 

 

Why did did you get the cacao alkaloids from, or did you extract?

[Alchemica]

Koda phytorium. If you want a couple of grams to play with for contributing to the thread with your experiences before you invest PM me an address!

[Alchemica]

So it seems Cacao methylxanthines cause really varied responses. Seems to be at least two types of people: the ones who get the Heart medicine and the others that get a jittery stimulant buzz. What's the difference between the two?
 

Is it the 'set and setting', 'individual variation', 'relationship to the plant spirit', the 'plant giving you the gift you need' or something purely biochemical dictating these varied responses? I chanced across the, what is to me a profoundly Heart-space and connecting experience the plant gives me by taking way too much cacao powder hoping to explore high dose flavonols with no expectations of what to expect, other than maybe dose dependent improvements in cognition. If you go in with the set and setting of it being 'like caffeine' and without a relationship to the whole medicine, maybe that's all it gives you?
 

That said, I have a huge caffeine tolerance so my adenosine receptors are probably downregulated. It doesn't discriminate as anything caffeine like in my books, but then I can't even feel high dose caffeine. Maybe I'm purely getting the mobilisation of intracellular calcium, inhibition of phosphodiesterases (PDEs), modulation of gamma-amino butyric acid (GABAA) receptors, inhibition of high affinity ATP-dependent cyclic nucleotide transporters, direct DNA interactions etc while others that have no caffeine tolerance get a very different effect? Or is there a deeper relationship that some are open to and ready for that this medicine gives to some only?

[ThunderIdeal]

Okay

 

Is "person" the correct terminology for one with no caffeine tolerance?

 

[oncewhywechange]

7 minutes ago, ThunderIdeal said:

Okay

 

Is "person" the correct terminology for one with no caffeine tolerance?

 

chemist warehouse

[Alchemica]

How did my sceletium 20:1 30mg in Hearty alkaloid enriched chocolate therapy go at metacognitive training?

Really good. The potent serotonin releasing and PDE4 activity combined with the Heart space of the chocolate was nicely prosocial. Wanted to chat to everyone. Not much opportunity to do that, instead had to be loved up watching monotonous power-points and doing formal surveys but hey, better than nothing. Got to talk briefly and start connecting. Without the need to crack out glowies! Slight bit of cardiovascular change, maybe tachycardia on onset with a warm head feeling. Do some BP/HR monitoring on this one before I recommend people apply it topically.

[ThunderIdeal]

27 minutes ago, Alchemica said:

 . Got to talk briefly and start connecting. Without the need to crack out glowies! 

 

Lol

 

Sounds like youre making steady progress on this project

Edited July 10, 2017 by ThunderIdeal

[Alchemica]

Redosed with 50mg of Sceletium varians, kindly gifted to me, extract to see what this one was like. Might have to grow this one to go with my plain kanna.

This seems particularly potent, hard to tell, could be additive effects from earlier 30mg Kanna 20:1 (S. tortuosum). This is kind of getting dreamy, deeply nice, emotional but close your eyes off into bliss, slightly beyond what I'm looking for.

Thankfully this space settled down to a more workable one, wasn't an OD just a strong onset. Get through the strong bit hump and it's nicely workable
 

Still, at lower doses, the serotonin reuptake inhibition or release (depending on source) and PDE4 inhibition is really therapeutically interesting. PDE4 inhibitors have been investigated as treatments for a diverse group of different diseases, including central nervous system disorders such as major depressive disorder (clinical depression), anxiety disorders, schizophrenia, Parkinson's disease, Alzheimer's disease, multiple sclerosis, attention deficit-hyperactivity disorder, Huntington's disease, stroke, autism and inflammatory conditions such as chronic obstructive pulmonary disease (COPD), asthma and rheumatoid arthritis
 

Still, methylxanthines are, in part, PDE inhibitors, maybe the synergy is really potent?
 

Kanna [Examine] tends to contain the alkaloids:

Mesembrine (can be fermented to form Δ7-Mesembrenone)

Mesembrenone

Mesembrenol

Mesembranol
 

Mesembrine and Mesembrenone are thought to be the major alkaloids, as the former is confirmed to be a potent serotonin reuptake inhibitor (other sources say releaser) in vitro whereas the latter is a dual SRI and PDE4 inhibitor. The crude plant is said to have a variable range of 0.05-2.3% alkaloids by weight
 

the Sceletium species S. expansum, S. strictum, S. tortuosum (=S. joubertii=S. namaquence) and S. varians (=S. subvelutinum), which belong to the ‘tortuosum’ type and which have been reported to contain alkaloids, the alkaloidal content in ‘emarcidum’-type Sceletium species, such as S. emarcidum, S. exalatum and S. rigidum, is less researched, see here

My goal with my chocolate therapy is not to form a crutch but catalyse some new states of prosocial, empathetic connection for myself and learn how to have that space safely available for others. Much in the same way MAPS is looking at empathogen assisted therapy for social anxiety in autistic adults, I'm trying to use my chocolate therapy catalytically, form the deep connections and maintain them in non-chocolate assisted ways. It seems quite promising for bringing me out of my decade long stagnation and hermitage.

Of concern is the prevalence of serotonergic eg SSRI/SNRI meds in the population and combinations of such. It's hypothetically risky, also hypothetically an augmentation strategy - I've explored SNRIs with sceletium alkaloids and they seem to competitively inhibit SERT, preventing many effects (leaving PDE4 etc and side-targets active). Drs in in Kanna's native land are apparently exploring SSRI/sceletium augmentation successfully. MAOI combos are a different level of risk

Edited July 10, 2017 by Alchemica

[Alchemica]

Aim today was to do a bit of an assay of higher dose sceletium tortuosum 20:1 I have, looking for a few things - minimal effective doses, side effects, tolerability etc. Just in me for my use later on, my 5-HT system is pretty maladjusted... don't use these as your guides for doses, just sharing my experiences.
 

Started the morning with 200mg cacao alkaloids, 20g cacao powder and 10g coconut oil just made into a hot chocolate for convenience. Then added ad libitum sceletium 20:1. This wont be a regular thing, it was an experiment. Ended up getting to 100mg extract. Didn't desire going further.
 

Oddly, I'd say this stuff has an inverted U shape dose response curve or some sort of maximum response at a relatively low dose. Doesn't seem like more is better, or chasing anything is worth it. Some of the lower doses are nicer and there is a bit of a nice onset which I guess you could foolishly chase. A good bit of connecting drive and wanting to go for walks, catch up with people, give a friend a hug, be generous, talk to people. All the good stuff. At higher doses, it just gets cloudy, somewhat sedating rather than the nice bit of pep the lower doses have, for me anyway. I've seen some literature suggesting melatonergic activity?
 

Mood was good throughout. Prosocial. Nice but ~25mg would have been ample IMO.
 

Had enough exploration of this at the higher doses. Only want to use this in novel social encounters for a bit of catalytic social connection.

This is much different to my responses when I was on mega-dose (375mg) venlafaxine which through possible competitive SERT inhibition made it not pro-social and I was exploring like 300mg doses of a different batch of the 20:1 from the same supplier. Not a suggested exploration for others.

~~~

Update:
 

One thing about my current sceletium extract is the extract, while always being great, without fault on the personal level - a potent reflection of the plant - it has been vastly different on the level of physicochemical properties and subjective effect each batch, hence likely at chemical constituent level. I can't become complacent and think I have a non-therapeutic therapy even spirited level, then receive a new batch.

 

I really want to work with this medicine myself and have it available for others but can't put it into a body product to have it varying on such a level each time, can I? This is like a well crafted art of local sceletium that I get and want to use in it's own way but maybe I need some other source that might be more 'standardised' and less likely to fluctuate in medicinal value.
 

For that reason, I might have to see what else is around, in addition to this handcrafted loving version.

What I'm doing is chasing a local supplier who can supply a bit more - aiming to grab some 20:1 that might be more stable in alkaloid content etc with some of the funds,

Edited July 11, 2017 by Alchemica

[Alchemica]

Cacao alkaloid shopping day for Cacao Healing for Illness - SA. Securing us a short term healthy supply. Also looking into some other healing phytoextracts like more sceletium. Probably grab a bit of anxiolytic trimyristin-rich nutmeg butter/oleoresin for recipe optimisation. Head to the health-food shop and grab some Cacao essentials with the kind donations! It's happening, people.

So what's the hypothetical difference between using the oleic acid rich cocoa butter and the trimyristin rich nutmeg butter? The effects of these lipids on GABAA modulation is the main one I've seen. Oleic acid causes a motor incoordination potentiation of GABAARs so could make for a more intoxicating base while myristic acid produces an GABAA potentiating anxiolytic response devoid of motor incooridination but equivalent to diazepam. Interesting stuff! Add the coconut oil for it's CNS benefits and all systems go!

Another interesting metabolic fate of the chocolate base is them turning into fatty acid amides and N-acylethanolamines. Oleic acid forms the potent PPARα and TRPV1 receptor active oleoylethanolamide which is a satiety factor, neuroprotective, antidepressive, memory enhancing, wakefulness promoting etc. It also forms oleamide, an odd fatty acid amide with some ?modulation of CB1Rs, 5-HT2ARs and GABAA receptors. The other fats may contribute in similar ways!

Edited July 11, 2017 by Alchemica