Hey

[bardo]

Hey everyone, what are you doing and why? No i wont elaborate i am just curious what you doing and why and how it is one may justify what it is you are doing? I feel a new world who is wanting of change and why ?

[ThunderIdeal]

I answer such things to myself, justify why I should be answering to you.

 

[bardo]

You should reply only if you wish to share something here, the question/statement wasn't presented well, I was a little drunk that's how I justify that lol I was feeling as tho many are doing not what is within but follow expectation, really I don't know what I was saying or asking tho I guess I was hoping for some profound reply's to come of it, or perhaps to ask yourself/myself why is it we do what we do, I feel when you question something enough the foundation of reason slips away.

[Slocombe]

The feeling that I don't know what I'm doing is a constant. The why is easier to answer but is unsatisfying... so I won't

[immanuel]

Well, I think it's always an important question to ask oneself, isn't it?

Why  do we get up and go to work each day when it makes us feel bad and, generally, contributes to a global state of decay.

We have a system ingrained in our condition to support what is essentially a collective entity that is feeding on our planet Earth, and from that, further..

If we drift through life in an unconscious state, we inevitably support the nature of a prison system upon the human race.

I think Terence would say the same thing in every talk with him,

Hope it can help anyway

Edited October 27, 2017 by manu

[bardo]

Yes Manu I believe it is an important question to ask oneself yet it seems many people around me do not ask such questions or at least do not communicate such things, like an unwillingness to talk of things outside of the regular monotonous subjects, how can someone come to awareness when one doesn't ask or question anything, It feels many solutions to the perceived world problems are very possible to remedy or solve yet many become quite defensive to there position and stance within existence yet it seems there is no to little understanding of what it is being defended and why it should deserve defending. I don't know just sometimes I feel like many are sleepwalking through the whole tour and by living with eyes shut the consequences of ones actions can not be recognized let alone avoided or remedied.

All and all we are not here long so i try not to get to caught up in issues and rather focus on what is in my power to change and proceed accordingly.

[Micromegas]

"how can someone come to awareness when one doesn't ask or question anything"

 

(where's the quote function)

 

I used to think this way, but i was sleepwalking too (and may still be sleepwalking). now i think there is no exact awareness to come to; talk of awareness is very monotonous. we are all subjects of something, we are all imprisoned. it's what saves us, not what dooms us, to have this capacity to be indoctrinated.

 

where I do agree however, is that we can build better prisons to lock ourselves up in by appreciating the contradictions inherent in our current prison, such as undermining our own resources - but this is not a question of higher or lower 'awareness' per se but of contents of variable awareness-es that express class positions. even the most enlightened are indoctrinated, likewise all earth-sensitive cultures were indoctrinated; the 'awareness' that led into our current capitalist social formation arose indirectly out of those hunter-gatherer ideologies, via a detour through theological absolutism, then directly out of the scientific revolution. it is precisely the notion that awareness could be improved that doomed the earth, and earth-conscious 'everyone-else-is-sleeping' behaviour is, today, paradoxically an immanent quality of the type of awareness that created its need in the first place: colonialism, consumerism and so on produced the notion of some greater awareness available in the modern age: the modern age was ushered in by a belief that others were sleeping, which is to say the 'primitive', and it should come as no surprise that some few of us are attempting to recover as our salvation what it is that we ourselves have destroyed. when i recognized my need for awareness came directly out of my lack of it (which is to say, I didn't fit 'mainstream'), rather than the inherent value in a particular type of awareness for which I should aim and was chasing at the time ('higher' awareness), i found a place of equivocation that reversed my understandings of reality and its purpose - there is nothing to proceed accordingly toward; on whose authority could one be presumptuous enough to choose an outcome, against which inviolable standard? Other people 'coming to awareness' is not the issue: the people who you deem to lack awareness might do very well in their own awareness which you yourself fail to possess and understand; which is to say again, how the problem has come about. What you are really saying is you want your awareness to be valued over the awareness of others because it is presently marginalized and you don't fit in, and you think what you know would be somehow better: this is class struggle exactly, and it is perfectly reasonable to feel this way. But neither your nor their awareness is of any greater or lesser value: even if they have different outcomes in praxis (which is hard to demonstrate). The intent toward justification by dominance is the same: even the ideology that seeks multiplicity is a hegemonic position because it takes a qualitative stand against tyranny; but tyranny and multiplicity work altogether the same in function and both could cure social problems, or create them. If you "feel a new world who is wanting of change and why" it will be because you do not align with the principal ideology of your social formation. But understand that change in no sense undoes the need for indoctrination; what your rebellion will need to do is change the contents of the hegemonic ideological position, but it will not change the fact that revolution follows the set function of our subjection to ideals and our production as subjects of those ideals. When the rebellion comes, suddenly it will be you who will be sleeping, and others who are suddenly awake against you will seek to turnover your seat of power to their own ideas.

 

Therefore the impetus to change is directly related to being caught in an issue of its own kind; marginalisation, an unmet need (such as to project the earth, or reorganise the political system). to believe that only others are trapped is futile: getting trapped in the right kind of net is key, one that suits you above all others. so i am on your side in a way because I think we do need better ideological systems in terms of our social longevity and happiness, and I am myself a fairly marginalised thinker (I even marginalise myself against a minority I generally agree with!). There are some great minds who invent new worlds: these are the true tyrants. If you are one of these, if your ideas appeal, if you can insert them into the ritual practices of the social formation from the inside, people will change almost without their knowledge, since no one, ultimately, comes to awareness independent of a presupposition. That is to say, if you want the world to change, do not concern yourself with the notion that others are sleepwalking and try therefore to awaken them to awareness - realise that it is indeed so, that we are all in a dream, and manipulate your subjects to the manifestation of your ideals while they slumber. Change is not won with freedom but with subjection, and even freedom is itself a form of subjection.

 

If you are not an ideological tyrant and do not have this power, and you continue to fall out-of-line with the prevailing social formation, understand you are in the minority and, if you believe your position is in some sense valid, continue to stand your ground in the contradiction you maintain against the rulers' hegemonic position, and continually seek to develop and engage others in your contradictory position (which is what terrorists do, feminists do, environmentalists do, activists do and so on): but never lose site of the fact that both you and they remain indoctrinated as subjects and qualitative judgements have already been provided to you in advance by an apparatus containing ideals whose ultimate validity can in no way be systematically verified. It is precisely this qualitative tension of ideas against each other that drives the engine of history and it will continue until the position of the subject has been exhausted by the infinitude of time and space.

 

Edited December 11, 2016 by Micromegas

[immanuel]

..

 

 

Edited October 27, 2017 by manu

[bardo]

Hi Micromegas, Talk of awareness may become or is monotonous tho I believe to come to awareness of something requires discussion or experience ( whether internal or external or both ) and to come to awareness of that thing or things requires one to break away from monotonous thinking and behaviour.

I didn't say proceed accordingly toward just proceed accordingly. I don't believe anyone has authority to choose an outcome for all tho we have the self given authority to choose our own actions and thoughts which will and does lead to an outcome tho there really is no outcome as such more a proceeding forward to the next moment, when you asked against which inviolable standard, I can not answer that because there is no inviolable standard as far as i know.

 

I really enjoyed reading your reply and discussing, sharing views, opinions, ideas etc is what helps evolve my personal awareness and perception, I don't think my awareness is greater than anyone else's or is right and others is wrong, my awareness is fluid and ever changing, I would never attempt to enforce a personal  view or belief onto another tho I do like to talk and listen to stimulating convo, ideas and thoughts that oppose my own, we are all teachers, everyone and everything teaches me something about my self views and how I view the world.

 

I think there is only one thing that seems certain and that is we will all die one day, this and the things in between is what to be aware of and that can be anything one thinks it to be. When I mentioned sleepwalking I am mainly referring to those I witness or know, those who complain a lot about there current circumstance when if they could only know they are in existence right now and it is happening right now they could be freed from there perceived suffering. I like to look at it this way, we are already on our death beds and this is the reflection happening in real time, I feel this view somewhat has the ability to free one from conformity and can potentially liberate one from the notion 'its just the way it is' and perhaps give self empowerment.

 

Just questions,thoughts/ideas, I am not a dictator nor would I want to be, I also would not like people to give there power to me or my ideas but rather exercise there own.

[bardo]

Hi Manu, i really wasn't demanding a specific answer, the question is so vague it is open to interpretation, was just curious of what kind of responses may follow, wanting atonement is difficult because to be wrong or have done something wrong is a matter of perception, what may be wrong to one may be perceived as right from another, or what may be perceived as wrong may appear right once new knowledge is discovered.  i don't feel atonement is required to move forward to enlightenment, just knowledge and that is different for each person depending on experience, i do believe however that we each have our own experiences and there for can teach each other to move toward more awareness, i don't think i said with certainty what awareness, i left that open.