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Alchemica

Optimising the psychedelic (?) experience for addiction recovery

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I have a friend who has recently detoxed from alcohol using diazepam but now the diazepam has ceased, and an 'ineffable urge to return to the drink' has returned and I'm worried. I see he's self medicating some pretty hefty issues, just worried that he's losing impulse control potentially due to neurological deficits.

He's on a heavy cocktail of psych meds, that said he apparently handles psychedelics well and finds them effective for quelling suicidality (but they have a reduced effectiveness compared to the general population likely due to medication influences)

 

We've tried naltrexone etc... He has a great addiction psychologist but it doesn't seem to be helping. Losing pregabalin seemed to be the start of this spiral into alcoholism.

 

What I want to know is how to theoretically optimise the psychedelic experience for re-directing him to a better life path? I've seen studies going down the route of 200-800 micrograms.LSD but want to know what aspect of the psychedelic experience it is that provides the 'therapeutic breakthrough'? Psychedelic Drug-Assisted Psychotherapy (see http://www.rcpsych.ac.uk/…/Sessa%20Ben%20-%20Psychedelic%20… ) seems to hint that mystical type experiences are correlated with abstinence and to be honest, from what I hear, he's not quite getting deep enough.

I'm open to any help on this one. Doesn't have to be psychedelics, I'm just out of ideas;

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Quitting pregabalin is hard. Worse than any opiate hard.  I was on it for 4 months for back pain and when I no longer needed it and quit 600mg a day I learnt for the first time in my life what severe depression feels like.  

 

If anyone wants to know what it feels like to no longer wish to live then cold turkey that shit.  

 

Worst week of my life. 

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^^^^ (stonewolf) 

 

"Worse than any opiate hard"  this is probably wrong... if not ignorant... 

 

most reports on the net say that while there is a tolerance, it cant be compared to opiate withdrawal and in any case its not as easy and as fast to get tolerance with pregabalin

 

I took 300mg pregabalin for 4 months as well, for back pain (disc herniation) and I felt zero side effects when I quit. 

Well, actually my libido returned to normal levels! 

 

Plus, sorry to say that, if you quit 600mg pregabalin after 6 months cold turkey, then your doctor is an idiot.  Assuming a doctor prescribed these to you... What kind of back pain? 

 

Well didnt you know pregabalin is addicive? didn't you feel euphoria when increasing the dose?  (well, you did not start on 600 mg at once right?) . Well I know I gradually lowered it even when my doc didn't think there are real addiction potential at this dose for less than 6 months or year, but for sure he said I should gradually lower from 300mg to 150mg.... 150mg he didnt think it was an issue, but I tapered off from 150 to 75mg as well (had both 75mg and 150mg capsules)

 

Doc was more afraid of the back pain striking back after lowering dose and quiting, than any depression issues... 

 

Alchemica>>>

 

just my 2 c

 

lsd might not be a good psych  for this : it last too much and its got much tension at the second half which probably is gonna have your friend and most opiate / sedatives addicts to want to tranquil themselves during the tesnion.. or after... plus its some RC  accidentally found in some lab.... in fact psychs might not be suitable at all... but I believe psiloscybin is the most impressive one in terms of changing perspective and anti-depressant qualities... 

 

you are thinking megadoses (typical psychedelic theist thinking) but  maybe consider psylocybin microdosing 

 

and when you mention a cocktail of psych meds, well its hard or even dangerous to suggest stuff

 

but I think amania muscaria is something that could resemble alcohol for some people.. AM offers a great revitalisation the next day, but this is true if consumed alone... IME, AM and alcohol kills the afterglow... even too much pot kills the gentle afterglow of a mid-range AM experience

 

So I am not really sure what kind of effects it would have with sedatives, plus I think its very dangerous  (a dissociative plus a cocktale of sedatives) 

 

Good luck to yr friend

Edited by sagiXsagi
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Sagi,

 

I'll concede you one point, my statement that lyrica is harder to stop using than opiates is entirely anecdotal with nothing empirical to back it up.

 

That said that was my experience of it.  It threw me into a terrible depression with considerable rebound pain.  I was using it for nerve related back pain that is unavoidable given my physical job.  Stopping daily opiates was far more gental mentally in my experience.  I never noticed any euphoria with pregabalin at any dose so was taken aback when discontinuing it provoked such a poor response in me.

 

Your personal experiences which you've used to rebuke mine are also anecdotal so if you'd get off your high horse that would be appreciated.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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heheh

 

whatever the case, quitting suddenly addictive pain meds might bring back rebound pain. 

Quitting cold turkey addictive drugs is a bad idea, especially if one has a history of opiate use... 

 

IME the pain alone is enough for me to be depressed. 

 

PS: no euphoria when first increasing dose at 600mg ??? strange...

 

there are a couple reports that pregabalin is harder to get addicted to, but when you develop a tolerance its pretty hard.. But who knows what's the history of the reporter? 

 

anyways, no cold turkey for no fucking reason when taking addictive drugs for pain... 

 

(edited out some stupid shit I wrote) 

 

 

 

 

Edited by sagiXsagi

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I found lyrica to be plain devoid of euphoria.  Mind you i don't find diazepam to be euphoric either.  Gabaergics alone just aren't my thing.  They don't even do much for anxiety at doses that aren't outright sedating.  

 

I'm probably an outlier in my response to them.

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I have never used benzos or opiates , let alone "experiment" or self-medicate , so I wouldn't know..

 

Lyrica is awesome for nerve pain and I am happy it exists. The euphoria, the diminished libido, the dependence that can be developed in long intakes and high doses and synergy with everything are just side-effects of a sedative, anxiolytic drug that works wonders for pain. 

 

 

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Thanks for the comments. This individual is doing really well. Decided he needed to shamanise and go on a plant diet for a bit. Cracked open his energy field, let all the stagnant negative energies dissipate, slayed his ego and moved into the spiritual realms to find the self-love and self-compassion his life had been devoid of. Knows what it's like to hit rock bottom and bounce back. So much healthier now.

Much love for all the support through this. Let me know if I can support anyone through their darker days.

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Lyrica is very bad for your brain in terms of neuroplasticity so it's a very bad choice if already struggling.

They prescribe it like candy in the U.S lately because of the crack down on opioid scripts. So much so they are now prescribing it off label for opioid withdrawl and anxiety.

Taking something that compromises neuroplasticity in someone who is trying to recover from addiction or mental health issues is obviously a risky game to play.

 

Edited by AndyAmine.
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That's great to hear Alchemica, is your friend still alcohol free?

 

As someone who has struggled with alcohol addiction and successfully treated it with psychedelics I can vouch anecdotally for using them for this purpose. Though it doesn't really cure alcoholism, it just really puts you off alcohol. Alcoholism is more of a coping mechanism once one has passed the physical addiction stage. When things became difficult in my life years later and I didn't know how to cope I turned to alcohol again. I used harmalas to move away from alcohol after that and found them more effective and less scattering than taking massive doses of acid. When prepared and dosed correctly harmala alkaloids exhibit a reverse tolerance (or increased sensitivity) as you use them and you are better able to process the effect, use meditative processes to actually address the causes of your anxiety, and reduce your dosage. It worked for me and I found them far more effective than psychedelics for the purpose.

Edited by Northerner
realized the thread had been necromanced
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Thanks for that at @Northerner. Still going well for this person, alcohol free but still the addictive need to medicate issues. Social attempts to reconnect just rekindle issues trying to adjust socially, fire off so much stress. Real struggles with OCD-like anxiety, mood, attention/goal-orientated activity and tics. Trying to do it with science based TCM and functional foods currently. Somewhat successful. Your suggestion sounds good, thanks for the suggestion.

Edited by Alchemica
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On 06/09/2017 at 6:36 AM, AndyAmine. said:

Taking something that compromises neuoplasticity in someone who is trying to recover from addiction or mental health issues is obviously a risky game to play.

 

Good point. REALLY good point.

 

I'm in contact with a few drug-and-alcohol professionals, a few pain specialist types (including the ones who put me on Lyrica) and I have never heard any of them mention this. Given how freely this drug is being prescribed, it seems like something that should be talked about, but I am not having much luck researching the topic. All the research seems to focus on the benefits of inhibiting neuroplasticity in chronic pain patients - none of them seem to consider the possible downsides of doing that to someone's brain, especially since the kind of people who get prescribed pregabalin probably have a better-than-average chance of being depressed &/or opioid addicts, for instance. So if anyone comes across research into (or even discussion of) this particular issue, could you please send it my way? I would be interested to learn more about this.

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MUSHROOMS!

something else that helped me that seems small but its burned into my mind was writing down on a piece of paper on 1 side "the person i want to be" and on the other side "the way i am behaving" 

 

i used to have issues with opiates and alcohol, mushrooms have really helped me think a bit more deeply/differently about the way i behave and why which in turn gives me a bit more breathing room to make choices based on how im thinking rather than being so emotional and fucking myself up to deal with it, for someone like myself the biggest thing is to try and stay neutral, not to get overly excited when things are good and not to get maniacally depressed if shit isnt working out , im not saying be a robot just let the emotions take a bit of a back seat to the thinking brain... 

 

so i agree with sagi, microdose mushrooms (sub perceptual dose)  and i would also just like to say quitting anything cold turkey can be dangerous, my mum recently tried to go cold turkey on her valiums and we almost took a trip to the hospital cos her blood pressure went through the roof... plz be careful, i hope this helps somehow..

 

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On 08/09/2016 at 8:52 AM, stonewolf said:

I found lyrica to be plain devoid of euphoria....I'm probably an outlier in my response to them.

Actually, from what I've been reading this kind of response isn't as rare as you might think. I don't know what the split is - you might be in the minority - but the internet is littered with exchanges that echo the one between you & sagi above. Some folk don't get euphoria, at any dose. I'm in this group as well - the first time I heard about people using pregabalin recreationally I was very confused. I was taking a bunch prescribed to me after spine damage had me unable to walk & bedridden from the nerve pain, and while thankfully it worked for that and getting back the use of my leg was nice, it didn't get me high. And after learning about that potential, you know that I tried.

 

Then it seems there is another split between those who get withdrawals & those who don't, and this is not necessarily related to whether or not they find the drug to be fun. I certainly didn't, and I found the cognitive side-effects distressing enough that I stopped taking it cold turkey at one point. This was before anyone had warned me about the potential for withdrawal - but as it turned out I had no troubles. When I had to do it all again recently, I did a rapid-taper over the course of a week just to be safe but again there were no withdrawal issues. Seems that some people just don't get them.

 

So yeah, while I think it's sketchy as hell the way this drug is being widely prescribed with no warnings about any of this, it does look like the addictive potential might not be as cut-and-dried as it is for some other drugs (like benzos & opioids).

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Any Iboga retreats in Aus? Has this been mentioned and I missed it?
I would of thought Iboga may have been one of the FIRST choices regarding the treatment of addiction?

NaGHB is on at the moment made from converted GBL, I think its like powder you mix your own fish with.
GBL is the same result (more effective infact) but may scorch the esophagus, as you'd be drinking a solvent as apposed to a converted harmless salt.
Anything that will result in a GHB high, as GHB is used to treat/ween off alcohol in a lot of countries. You can nod out like heroin, but with little risk of depressed breathing.
Although G may just end up like a replacement instead of a treatment, similarly like the diazeman.

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16 hours ago, Skellum said:

Any Iboga retreats in Aus? Has this been mentioned and I missed it?

 

https://www.ibogainesanctuary.com/ibogaine-treatment-became-legal-in-australia/

 

From what I could find, there was one treatment centre in Oz, but closed in 2010. This article states it's legal to import and sell the plant and seeds, but not refined Ibogaine, though I'm not sure if that is still the case.  Ibogaine is currently a scheduled prescription substance (schedule 4), so theoretically a GP can prescribe it, but there is no legal supply for it.....

 

I spoke with a friend of mine who works with the ceremonial plants, and he said everyone he knew in that circle steer clear of using it because of the risks involved, even when screening people who go for treatment. There have been a number of deaths supposedly attributed to iboga in a non-clinical setting, though the few I have read about suggest the possibility death may have been a result of another substance.

 

There is a non-profit in North US, The Global Ibogaine Therapist Alliance, (https://www.ibogainealliance.org/) which has done investigations (not sure to what extent, but they're not law enforcement) into some of the deaths around the world. There was a case of an Aussie who died in Thailand a couple of years ago, and his family were convinced it was the iboga. Both the Thai police and GITA investigation concluded he had died from a combination of opiate injection following taking some valium prior to starting treatment at the "Thai clinic" (iboga treatment

is unregulated in Thailand). The clinic also maintained they had not commenced his treatment before he died, but his girlfriend, who was with him, disputed this.

 

The friend I spoke with said he would make some discreet inquiries and let me know if he comes up with anything....

 

On ‎9‎/‎8‎/‎2016 at 11:41 PM, sagiXsagi said:

Lyrica is awesome for nerve pain and I am happy it exists. The euphoria, the diminished libido, the dependence that can be developed in long intakes and high doses and synergy with everything are just side-effects of a sedative, anxiolytic drug that works wonders for pain. 

 

On ‎9‎/‎27‎/‎2017 at 7:33 PM, Anodyne said:

Actually, from what I've been reading this kind of response isn't as rare as you might think. I don't know what the split is - you might be in the minority - but the internet is littered with exchanges that echo the one between you & sagi above.

 

Pregabalin's real world efficacy varies widely depending on the patient and the specific cause of nerve pain. Side effects also vary considerably, as does it's propensity for addiction. This is because it is not an agonist for the neurochemical it acts on (GABA), but rather stimulates an increase in GABA's function in the body (among other things, inhibiting nerve transmission).
 
Withdrawal symptoms, anxiety and depression (among many more side effects) are common even with tapered cessation because GABA influences synaptic traffic with most neurochemicals, including endorphins, serotonin and dopamine. Lyrica is not metabolized by the body and has a half-life between 5 and 7 hours. Most, if not all, is secreted via the kidneys within 24-48 hours, but it typically takes 1-3 weeks for the brain's neurochemistry to return to it's pre-Lyrica state.
 
Patients who have minor or no history of mental health issues generally tend to experience longer and/or more severe withdrawal than those with. Especially depression and anxiety. This is possibly due to them having a greater number of connections for certain neurotransmitters. Having said that, there are patients both with and without mental health issues who report both severe and minor or no withdrawal symptoms. These data are not uncommon in withdrawal, regardless of the focus of addiction. Chronic pain also affects the body's neurochemicals, adding another variable into an already crowded mix.
 
For neuropathic pain, cessation of Lyrica is usually tapered over a week, more so to reduce the impact on the GABA system and the psychological side effects. However, stopping it suddenly, which really never should be done outside a controlled environment, is not known to present any physical danger (for example inducing a heart attack). Unless you have a seizure disorder, it is unlikely going cold turkey poses any serious physical risk, but the risk of suicidal depression alone is more than enough reason to taper withdrawal. 
 
On ‎9‎/‎8‎/‎2016 at 0:09 AM, sagiXsagi said:

PS: no euphoria when first increasing dose at 600mg ??? strange...

 

No, not really; Lyrica-induced euphoria can occur at all doses, as it can be absent. Even at 600mg.

 

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The Herb Shack in NZ has government approval to do Ibogaine detoxes and they have a good set up there.

 

I know of one Australian facilitator who I'd recommend, but I'm not sure if I should post any details here.

If you are interested send me a PM and I'll point you in the right direction.

Edited by AndyAmine.
Edited for clarity
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Insequent>>>

I think most of what you say has to do with the person history, and more specifically history of use of sedatives in the past and as you say things as chronic anxiety etc..  and of course in some degree the individual response as in all drugs.. 

 

Since then I have been crisis-free for almost 2 years, always careful and trying to swim as much as I can, even though I can be pretty lazy.. but another friend had similar trouble with damaged discs, and lyrica made his life better... at only 150 mg a day I think ... he is still on it.... 

 

as for the euphoria, in my personal experience it first happens the day you take 3x 75 mg per day, then more noticably when you switch to 300 mg / day , that is 150 in the morning and 150 at night, and it last a couple days, then it reaches slowly a plateau... I didnt ever take 600 mg per day... I hope I dont even need to. Of course I am talking about taking Lyrica under a medical problem under doctor prescription....

 

I could never see lyrica as an euphoriant, and people should not take sedatives like lyrica to get high... if you happen to have some lyrica tamblets, dont take them, save them for some later time when something bad might have happened....  

 

I have talked to people for whom lyrica didnt work - but they all didnt take it long enough, just a couple days... as you said, depends on the person, one might be fine at 150 mg, oathe at 300mg, other one might need 600mg, I thing this is the max for neuro-pain per day... 

 

I dont know what yousay, to me lyrica is a wonderfulldrug, thoough I sincerely dontknow how it works when one takes 600mg at once for no reason... 

 

I am very hesitant to believe that some person , with no  history with opiates and benzos,  would not feel euphoria the first time he took 600mg out of the blue......  and I am willing to bet that even at 200 mg at once for a virgin person... 

 

*beer mode on*

 

LOVE LYRICA, DONT ABUSE THIS DRUG

Edited by sagiXsagi
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Hi Anodyne - was not aware of this effect of Lyrica. But found a few articles that suggest a significant effect

* Neurontin and Lyrica are a Death Sentence for New Brain Synapses  https://painkills2.wordpress.com/2015/04/25/neurontin-and-lyrica-are-a-death-sentence-for-new-brain-synapses/

* Impact of pregabalin treatment on synaptic plasticity and glial reactivity during the course of experimental autoimmune encephalomyelitis    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4178248/

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Hey Flux, thanks for the links. I have encountered those in my searches - still trying to wrap my head around the second one (and others like it), but I think the gist of it is this: pregabalin/gabapentin inhibit neuroplasticity. This can be either a good thing or a bad thing. It isn't necessarily the same as just saying "lyrica causes brain damage" as that first article implies. If the changes that are occurring in the brain are detrimental (such as those in MS, as the paper discusses), then blocking them can be a good thing. This also applies to the kind of changes that can occur in chronic pain - where your brain has learned to send pain signals and continues to do so long after the physical injury has healed - it is just a matter of some faulty wiring, in essence. In that situation, if you can block those connections from forming in the first place, then you may be able to save people from a lifetime of chronic pain. And since lyrica seems to block those kind of new connections, then it could be very helpful in those circumstances.

 

Where it all goes sour is when these drugs start getting thrown around to anyone who happens to be in pain, without looking at the whole picture. So if, for instance, you had a severe injury and were given lyrica immediately, it may head off those chronic pain issues at the pass, and they would just never form. (of course, you might still have the cognitive side-effects and withdrawals to deal with, but that's getting off-topic) However if the doctors were slack, or just hopeful, and waited awhile before prescribing lyrica until there were signs of chronic pain - then the story is very different. In that situation, the patient has already formed those faulty connections, and the lyrica is actually stopping them from getting better - it is stopping the neuroplasticity which would allow the brain to change its wiring again, to form healthier pathways. Same story for drug addiction (which of course affects many pain patients) - we are talking about some pretty entrenched neural wiring there, and changing that isn't easy even without the handicap of plasticity-blocking drugs.

 

But of course, pregabalin is perceived as having "low abuse potential", so doctors are just handing it out in place of opioid painkillers & NSAIDs. I still believe it can be a miracle drug if prescribed correctly, for stuff like neuropathic pain, and possibly in acute care (eg. after severe injury or amputation). But it is being prescribed way more widely than that right now, which seems pretty reckless and short-sighted. I loathe pharmaceutical-company ethics, so I would be fuming about this anyway, but since this all applies to me personally as well, I am extra pissed off. I am going to be a long time untangling the mess that they have made of my brain.

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Very well worded Anodyne. 

That's what I was getting at above but you did a much better job. :) 

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Since it's being mentioned here... Lyrica did nothing for me, and lol.... Like Ano I tried to see where it would go.

 

Not a thing euphoria wise, sent me off tap and scattered me with months of prescribed use with no pain relief. Even when I was having epic nerve F bombs going off.

 

I persisted when I should have stopped it,and knew it... Lol Had no withdrawals though thankfully, just a fortnight or so to regain cognitive " normal".

 

That's me though, it's worth a go if ya have pain. Just be self aware,better yet have others keep an eye on you.

 

 

Edited by waterboy 2.0
W word

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of course the whole neuro-pain thing depends on the kind of injury.. we cant talk about everything... generally... 

 

 

On 10/15/2017 at 3:20 AM, waterboy 2.0 said:

Since it's being mentioned here... Lyrica did nothing for me,

 

 

just curious, at what dose didn't it work for ya? no relief at all? 

 

On 10/14/2017 at 4:05 AM, Anodyne said:

I still believe it can be a miracle drug if prescribed correctly, for stuff like neuropathic pain, and possibly in acute care (eg. after severe injury or amputation). But it is being prescribed way more widely than that right now, 

 

I too think it could be very helpful in occasion of acute pain in larger dose, especially for an individual that is known to respond well to the drug... like an cute crisis of back - injury pain...but I am not sure.... 

 

in greece I dont think its as widely prescribed, then again, I am not eally sure which other stronger medications are prescribed here as I never came to need such strong painkillers.. 

 

pain-wise, it depends on the kind of injury and all the drug history of each individual... no doubt about this.. 

 

 

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@sagiXsagi

 

Long time at 300mg/day (in range for diabetic neuropathy) , upped to 450 as for fibromyalgia recommendation (I am not fibro nor diabetic), a "test"... Lol.. In the 600 range did nothing pain or

" recreational " wise.

 

I found it all in all to be totally ineffective for me and horrible. But thats part of getting guinea pigged when pretty crook.

 

Also when your talking" pain" ... It's a personal thing.... When one bloke would scream another goes meh.

 

We are all wired different:wink:

 

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