How scientists fell in and out of love with the hormone oxytocin

[Alchemica]

Scientists ​believed a whiff of the​ chemical could increase trust between humans. Then they ​went back and checked​ their work.

http://www.vox.com/2016/4/4/11348288/oxytocin-love-hormone

I did quite a bit of experimentation with intranasal oxytocin and it was unremarkable IMO. Anyone else done some experimentation?

[ThunderIdeal]

no. too hard to aquire.

although if you take the experience of ecstacy and subtract the experience of meth from that, maybe what is left will include in its sum the experience of oxytocin? in which case..... yes trust yes love yes

[ThunderIdeal]

i love the way these pharma are studies can be replicated occasionally.

science to the rescue! but only a fraction of the time when it isn't tripping over it's own shoelaces.

[ThunderIdeal]

i love you alchemica

^ is what i'd probably say if you sent me some nasal geario and then PM'd me right as i opened it

[Alchemica]

no. too hard to aquire.

You could grab some troches here [https://www.peptideclinics.com.au/] and dissolve them in water (24IU is standard intranasal dose, so a few 200IU troches make a bit) That was how I initially played around with it before scoring some pure peptide which I finished off unfortunately.

although if you take the experience of ecstacy and subtract the experience of meth from that, maybe what is left will include in its sum the experience of oxytocin? in which case..... yes trust yes love yes

I feel it's more serotonergic effects that mediate the best aspects. Serotonin release and 5-HT1A/5-HT2 stimulation + the oxytocin released [1]

5-HT1A stimulation does mediate some oxytocin release [2] which can also be achieved with buspirone to some extent (which I didn't find particularly effective for anxiety). 8-OH-DPAT is potentially more interesting... Probably not as empathogenic as good serotonin releasing agents are.

PS. Love you too TI!

AndyAmine's suggestion of compounding chemists is good, just need a Dr that will script it. Be autistic

Edited April 9, 2016 by Alchemica

[AndyAmine.]

There is a compounding chemist in NNSW (Ballina?) that will make it up however you want it.

Hes got some other interesting things available too, he lists most of it on his website.

[ThunderIdeal]

You could grab some troches here [https://www.peptideclinics.com.au/] and dissolve them in water (24IU is standard intranasal dose, so a few 200IU troches make a bit) That was how I initially played around with it

hey

that site offers all kinds of things.

things with which to adulterate one's organism in cool ways.

do any of these other adulterants come recommended by one such as anyone?

[ThunderIdeal]

it actually seems as though they're offering HGH, when i think about it, with all the claims of muscle and bone growth, weight loss etc etc.

when i said they offer many cool things, i was actually referring to the many results they promise since i have no idea what "adulterants" they have on offer. then i realised my post probably sounded like somebody chasing a novel buzz, which is not the case.

edit: found at least a partial list of products, in the drop down menus near the top of the page

Edited April 9, 2016 by ThunderIdeal

[migraineur]

I used it as a potential treatment for my migraines. It has helped others but it didn't help me. I didn't notice any other effects. It cost me about $70ish per month and I had to keep it in the fridge. It expired after a month and I had to use it 3 times per day which is kind of annoying for a medication that you have to keep cold. It would've made travel a bitch had I remained on it.

[Alchemica]

I feel it's more serotonergic effects that mediate the best aspects. Serotonin release and 5-HT1A/5-HT2 stimulation + the oxytocin released [1]

5-HT1A stimulation does mediate some oxytocin release [2] which can also be achieved with buspirone to some extent (which I didn't find particularly effective for anxiety). 8-OH-DPAT is potentially more interesting... Probably not as empathogenic as good serotonin releasing agents are.

Just expanding on this, from MDMA-assisted therapy: A new treatment model for social anxiety in autistic adults

"Early studies in rodents suggest that 5HT_1A receptors reduce anxiety and aggression (Brunner and Hen, 1997 and Graeff et al., 1996), and some drug discrimination studies suggest that the 5HT_1A agonist 8-OH-DPAT partially or fully substitutes for MDMA (Glennon and Young, 2000, Glennon et al., 2007 and Schechter, 1986). Administering a 5HT_1A antagonist attenuates the prosocial behavior of rats, measured by preference to lie adjacent to each other, possibly because it prevents elevation in OT (Morley et al., 2005 and Thompson et al., 2007). At least some direct or indirect effects of MDMA on serotonin receptors may cause changes in GABA uptake in the ventral tegmental area of rats (Bankson and Yamamoto, 2004). In rodents, doses of MDMA equivalent to human doses produce either few or no behavioral effects. However, doses of 5 mg/kg or greater have several specific behavioral effects, including increased locomotor activity, increased anxiety at moderately high doses, and decreased anxiety at higher doses (Cole and Sumnall, 2003 and Green et al., 2003). In contrast, rhesus monkeys do not exhibit increased locomotor activity after receiving up to 2.4 mg/kg MDMA (Crean et al., 2006).

 

To date, no empirical investigations have been conducted on the effects of MDMA on primate social interactions. Morley and colleagues observed rat behavior after receiving 5 mg/kg MDMA, noting that this dose correlated with prosocial behavior, such as lying next to each other (Morley et al., 2005). Recent studies conducted by the same team of researchers suggest that MDMA increases prosocial behavior in rats by elevating OT in the paraventricular nucleus through 5HT1A receptor agonism, with the OT increase arising from the indirect effects of MDMA on 5HT1A receptors (Thompson et al., 2007 and Thompson et al., 2009). At present, there have been no human pharmacological challenge studies combining MDMA with 5HT1A agonists, while 5HT1A antagonists have negligible effects on subjective or physiological effects of MDMA in humans (Hasler et al., 2009 and Hysek et al., 2010; van Wel et al., 2012). As a result, it is unclear whether the rat behavior is analogous to human reports of increased feelings of empathy or interpersonal closeness while under the influence of MDMA (Liester et al., 1992, Peroutka et al., 1988, Solowij et al., 1992 and Vollenweider et al., 1998)."

 

"MDMA acutely increases cortisol, prolactin, and adrenocorticotropic hormone concentrations in a dose-dependent manner (Farré et al., 2004, Grob et al., 1996, Harris et al., 2002, Mas et al., 1999 and Parrott et al., 2008). MDMA also produces a robust increase in the neurohormone OT (Dumont et al., 2009). OT is a neuropeptide associated with pair bonding and social affiliation in mammals that also attenuates amygdalar response to anxiogenic stimuli (Adolphs et al., 2005 and Bartz and Hollander, 2006). Exogenous OT administration is associated with increased interpersonal trust and changes in social perception, including attenuated reactivity to threatening faces (Domes et al., 2007a, Domes et al., 2007b and Kosfeld et al., 2005). OT administration also improves empathic accuracy in some individuals who are shy or lack adequate social skills (Guastella et al., 2010). Alterations in OT signaling have also been proposed as a potential mechanism for the underlying neurological basis for the core social differences in autism and have been implicated as a possible novel therapy for enhancing social adaptability (Bartz and Hollander, 2006).

 

MDMA elevates OT in peripheral blood (Dumont et al., 2009, Hysek et al., 2012 and Wolff et al., 2006), which is an imperfect but somewhat reliable indicator of elevated OT in the brain (Bartz and Hollander, 2006). Findings of an association between elevated OT and detectable MDMA in peripheral blood were first reported in a naturalistic study of London nightclub attendees with and without detectable plasma MDMA levels (Wolff et al., 2006). Dumont and colleagues reproduced these results in humans and found that MDMA significantly elevated peripheral plasma OT levels in a placebo-controlled study in healthy volunteers (Dumont et al., 2009), in addition to a positive association between elevated levels of OT and prosocial feelings. Hysek and colleagues replicated these results and further reported that administering a serotonin reuptake inhibitor, but not a norepinephrine uptake inhibitor nor several adrenergic antagonists, attenuated the effects of MDMA on OT levels, suggesting a serotonergic mechanism in producing elevated (Hysek et al., 2012). The effects of MDMA on OT could be partially responsible for changes in empathy (Bedi et al, 2010). However, the multi-level effects of MDMA on monoaminergic signaling and OT, combined with a therapeutic setting focused on enhancing functional skills, are more likely to provide the opportunity for a corrective emotional experience greater than OT alone, and could be useful in the treatment of social anxiety in autistic adults."

[Fenris]

I experimented with OT years ago but was unable to discern anything. Maybe if I was in a room full of people I may have felt more connected and trusting, but trying it by myself I got nothing.

[ThunderIdeal]

What about MDAI? Although apparently very rarely did it actually contain mdai.

Edited April 12, 2016 by ThunderIdeal

[Alchemica]

What about it? I'm speculating it would be quite effective as a SSRA empathogen in autism spectrum conditions etc. Guessing OT release would be mediated by similar mechanisms to MDMA, Ideally I'd be looking for something non-scheduled (or schedule 4) and not impacted by analogue laws. I was really hoping oxytocin was the ticket to a somewhat empathogenic healing space but now I'm settling for endogenous love experiences which are sort of a new phenomena to me.

Edited April 12, 2016 by Alchemica

[Yeti101]

I fell out of love with oxytocin when I read this:

Further experiments by De Dreu’s group indicate that oxytocin can also reduce prosocial behavior toward out-group members where this helps one’s in-group. Administration of oxytocin to subjects before their participating in a group-based financial game induced ‘tend and defend’ reactions: it increased trust and cooperation within groups, but also increased noncooperation with (although not aggression against) members of other groups when this helped to protect one’s in-group (De Dreu et al. 2010).

This work suggests that the so-called ‘prosocial’ effects of oxytocin might be more aptly characterized as ‘pro–in-group’ effects, because the hormone can in fact induce antisocial behavior when this conduces to the interests of one’s in-group. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4398979/)

[mu!]

To date, no empirical investigations have been conducted on the effects of MDMA on primate social interactions. Morley and colleagues observed rat behavior after receiving 5 mg/kg MDMA, noting that this dose correlated with prosocial behavior, such as lying next to each other (Morley et al., 2005). 

(emphasis mine)

I would be off my fucking guts on that much molly! I don't know how prosocial I'd be if I'd just turned into a gacky puddle of serotonin like that 

edit: I guess thats what they "lying next to each other" bit is referring to, munted rats that can't move and just sit there gurning hard:

Edited April 18, 2016 by mu!

[ThunderIdeal]

Perhaps you missed the preceding sentence "In rodents, doses of MDMA equivalent to human doses produce either few or no behavioral effect" but yes, very lol

[fyzygy]

Mescaline and LSD, but not psilocybin, enhanced circulating oxytocin. 

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41386-023-01607-2