Anti-vaxxer's baby hospitalised with whooping cough

[Change]

The 11-week-old daughter of an anti-vaccination activist has been hospitalised for two nights with whooping cough, a week after a maternal health nurse told child protection authorities of her concerns for the unvaccinated baby girl.

But hours after being discharged from hospital on Friday, the Melbourne woman struck a defiant note, hinting to other members of the Facebook group Unvaccinated Australia that she had lied to hospital doctors in order to leave the hospital.

Doctors had urged her to immunise the baby because having had the disease only gives a child immunity for five years, and the vaccine contains immunisations in addition to pertussis.

Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/antivaxxers-baby-hospitalised-with-whooping-cough-20151211-gll6hl.html#ixzz3u3tTNs6K
Follow us: @theage on Twitter | theageAustralia on Facebook

[Sallubrious]

I was just reading through the link to the article in the Age and there was no mention of the baby testing positive for pertussis. They said the child had flu like symptoms and thick mucus caught in her throat.

My son developed those symptoms at around that age and he was diagnosed with bronchiolitis, which is quite common in babies around that age. It would be interesting to find out if the baby actually did have pertussis.

The Australian vaccination schedule doesn't require the first multi-vaccine (including the pertussis vaccine) to be administered until two months, so that baby wasn't even due to have that vaccine. The Merck guidelines for vaccinations also state in very definite terms that vaccines are not to be administered to sick people with fevers, so the mother was acting in the best interests of her child in that respect.

I'm not anti-vaccine, but this seems like a PR beatup and that mother is being wrongfully targeted because of her public profile and association with the anti-vaxxers. She had the support of a GP who obviously thought the nurse was wrong, so the ensuing witch hunt was in many ways unfounded.

If the child was shown to have proven positive for pertussis things would be a bit different, but without that evidence it seems like a beatup by fuckwit journos and evangelistic hospital staff. Even if the child is positive for pertussis the vaccination schedule would not have prevented it because she wasn't due for it.

http://www.immunise.health.gov.au/internet/immunise/publishing.nsf/Content/national-immunisation-program-schedule

[Change]

Towards the end of CNN's highest rated program in history – Wednesday nights' interminable Republican Party debate, the leading candidate, Donald Trump, opened a new front in his war on consensus: vaccination.

In his typically rambling way he linked vaccination schedules to autism, telling an audience of 23 million, "You take this little beautiful baby, and you pump – I mean, it looks just like it is meant for a horse, not for a child, and we had so many instances, people that work for me, just the other day, two years old, beautiful child went to have the vaccine and came back and a week later got a tremendous fever, got very, very sick, now is autistic."

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/world/us-election/donald-trump-catches-the-antivaccine-bug-20150917-gjpeh1.html#ixzz3u4NlGLMu
Follow us: @smh on Twitter | sydneymorningherald on Facebook

edit ; your probably right Sally, i should stop reading the paper, its a bad source of information thats for sure

Edited December 12, 2015 by Change

[Sallubrious]

It's an important issue Change, I just find that you have to be very objective when reading anything about vaccines. People on both sides of the fence will defend their opinions tooth and nail and are not above bending the truth if it suits them.

[Sallubrious]

While we're on the topic of vaccines and evangelistic hospital staff.

When my kids were born, the nurses wanted to inject them with a hepB vaccine on the day they were born. I'd researched it and decided I didn't want them to have the injection, as there is a tablet they can use for the same purpose that has a much lower chance of creating complications and contains no dubious adjuvants. They don't tell you about this.

So the nurses were busting their arses to poke a needle into my kids as a welcome to the world gift. When I asked them to administer the tablet instead they got offended and one nurse got quite angry. Right at that time a doctor came in and said "I didn't want my kids to have the injection either, they all had the tablet"

Nurses tend to read industry propaganda for their training, so most of their opinions are filtered through that one sided perspective and they become flag bearers for big pharma without realising or even knowing all the facts.

[Sallubrious]

I just realised what I wrote earlier was wrong about the kid being overdue for the vaccination. The kid was actually two weeks overdue.

So make your own conclusions.

Edited December 12, 2015 by Sally

[Auxin]

this seems like a PR beatup

That was my assumption just based on the thread title ;)

Over here recently we had a 'whooping cough' micro-epidemic and people got all into a disproportionate froth screaming at the anti-vaxxers, calling them murderers and such. Two months later when someone fucking bothered to test the sick kids it turned out they didnt have whooping cough to begin with, and no vaccine would have protected them. That bit never made its way into mainstream news.

Nurses tend to read industry propaganda for their training, so most of their opinions are filtered through that one sided perspective and they become flag bearers for big pharma without realising or even knowing all the facts.

Well I'm baffled, befuddled, and bewildered. Are you implying that in Oz doctors dont get identical training?

Fuck sake, I may move over there after all

Edited December 13, 2015 by Auxin

[Sallubrious]

Well I'm baffled, befuddled, and bewildered. Are you implying that in Oz doctors dont get identical training?

No our doctors are corporate whores just like in the US. Our AMA follows the US AMA like a lost puppy with the benefit of a hysteresis that creates a lag in legislation that allows them to keep selling all the pharmaceuticals that have been banned from sale over there.

We're the dumping ground for dangerous, lethal drugs that can't be sold there any more, so in many ways it's worse here than it is over there. It's a bit like Mexico in that respect.

[courage]

Thanks for starting a topic on this one change, I appreciate the knowledge shared. With the warning of a "bad vaccine" being introduced, I've always been very wary around all this controversy, it's good to be informed.

[Sallubrious]

Not long after the MMR vaccine became the standard in Australia there were several studies circulating that showed it can cause a reversal of the cd4 to cd8 T cell ratio.

This can happen naturally in old age and is commonly seen in HIV patients, but it's rare in juveniles at the age they receive the MMR vaccine.

When my kids were due for it I asked the GP who was responsible for administering the vaccine if he knew about this and it he had no idea whatsoever. Then I asked him for published work demonstrating the long term safety of the MMR vaccine with a control group compared to a group that had received the vaccine and it enraged him.

He couldn't give me that evidence because it doesn't exist.

Just shut up and take whatever the doctor gives you people.

[Auxin]

Fascinating, I hadnt heard of that cd4/8 inversion from vaccines.

I remember some clinical studies where 'prolonged' (just 5-8 days) absolute fasts (only water) brought cd4/8 ratios back to youthful levels in older patients and rejuvenated the functioning of those cells, the tactic was combined with chemo and after the chemo when the fast was broken the immune system came back in full strength, unlike the folks who had chemo with no fast.

I wonder if fasting kids around vaccine time would have any benefit. [but if you do it, dont tell anyone. Fasting is still a taboo in western nations.]

[Sallubrious]

That's interesting Auxin, I hadn't heard of that either.

In recent trials with some forms of MS, the patients are put through of course of chemo to suppress their immune system and then pre-harvested autologous stem cells are implanted to back into the patient to "reset" the immune system.

Adipose (fat) is rich in mesenchymal stem cells and is becoming the preferred source for stem cells in some situations lately.

I wonder if the breakdown of fat during the fast releases stem cells & immune factors back into the patients bloodstream in the example you quoted.

[zed240]

No our doctors are corporate whores just like in the US. Our AMA follows the US AMA like a lost puppy with the benefit of a hysteresis that creates a lag in legislation that allows them to keep selling all the pharmaceuticals that have been banned from sale over there.

We're the dumping ground for dangerous, lethal drugs that can't be sold there any more, so in many ways it's worse here than it is over there. It's a bit like Mexico in that respect.

Having multiple people within my family who are long term practicing doctors, as well as two pharmacists, I take exception to you painting doctors with the same broad brush above.

As with any avenue of life, some people are assholes and not particularly smart, whether they're in the medical profession or not. But many, many doctors are very conscientious people who do a huge amount of study in their "personal" time and truly want the very best outcomes for their patients. Sure, some doctors are assholes, if you find that you do not get along with your doctor just go and find another one who is better. It's pretty damn rare you find the love of your life the first time you date anyone, so why is it so hard for people to go to a few different doctors and find one that you like and trust?

Just remember that doctors are people too, and usually they are people who have devoted their entire lives to directly helping improve the quality and length of other peoples lives. Just imagine a world without the huge amount of good work that doctors have done. The world would be a much, much shittier place without them.

And in relation to your comment about us using out of date drugs, there are numerous drugs that the Australian system will not allow to be used anymore, (or that were just never approved at all), as they don't meet our standards even thought he US has approved them for current use in that country. And other drugs that have been outlawed here that are still in use in the states. So that argument could be flung around at either countries practitioners.

[Sallubrious]

You obviously have your own personal bias Zed which you made quite clear.

I have my own personal bias based on observations and interactions with doctors over many years. I also have some friends who are doctors themselves.

That statement was a generalisation and I do believe there are some good doctors, I've just never been lucky enough to find one in almost 50 years on this planet.

I just watched 3 of my family members ( &2 people not in the family) get killed from chemotherapy, the doctors kept forcing it upon them even though the whole family could see the life draining out of them and begged the doctors to stop. They were so sick that they couldn't eat or take a shit themselves but the doctors insisted on perseveering with the chemo.

An Australian study found that chemotherapy only increases the survival rate of cancer by 2.3 -2.5 % which is so insignificant that it could be put down to statistical anomoly.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15630849?ordinalpos=1&itool=Entrez

Numerous other studies have shown similar outcomes

What person with any scruples at all would needlessly poison a sick person just to turn a buck.

Ask your doctor friends if they have any pens, notebooks, sample packs from drug companies or if they've been offered any other freebies like holidays or computers etc.

I could go about statins and several other types of drugs that are currently being prescribed needlessly or elaborate on the history of the AMA and big pharma if you want.

[zed240]

I am very sorry you and your family and friends have had to deal with some pretty horrible health situations. Obviously that's something I doubt anyone would wish on any other person.

Drug companies can offer items of no more than $10 value per clinician here in Australia. Drug reps used to be able to give away huge gifts but those laws were changed at least 20 years ago.

Neither doctor in my family will accept anything from a drug rep except a free pen on rare occasions, and no, they don't even accept or eat the "free" lunches they drop off at the clinics/hospital.

And yes, I'm biased due to my family connections and I also currently work in medical student education, so I do have a reasonable amount of contact with a range of clinicians. I am glad you pointed out your bias of having bad experiences with one particular and very difficult medical field also.

Statins are a funny one. I think a lot of doctors think they are over prescribed but also agree there are some cases where they are absolutely necessary.

I don't mind if you do or don't list why you think doctors are all in it for the money and are being swayed by "big pharma" in every decision. I will however take exception at the general tone being one of "all doctors are evil and in it for the money rather than the health outcomes" as I just don't think that's the case for the overwhelming majority of them at all.

[2XB]

In the 90's I was cured of cancer through chemotherapy, didn't realise how lucky I actually am to be alive with those stats in that study, thanks sally :-)... I guess the doctors took more of a punt than I realised.. . They seemed so confident at the time.. Lying pricks, putting my life on the line for a kick back.. .

Mind you I'd have much rather use cannibas oil, they didn't tell me about that :-)

Edited December 15, 2015 by doublebenno

[zed240]

Lying pricks, putting my life on the line for a kick back.. .

I don't know if you're being serious or not, but no doctor receives a kick back for putting someone on chemotherapy. (Or for putting people on any other drugs, in Australia, at least). I have heard about some US and overseas clinicians taking huge kickbacks or payouts for either "speaking at a conference" or some other BS reason when they have prescribed enough of "drug A".

[spooge]

Doctors are human, all humans are corrupatble.

Doctors rape, molest, kill and mame their patients everyday, here in silly little Australia as well.

The only decent doctor was Tom Baker, the rest are all imatators.

[2XB]

I don't know if you're being serious or not, but no doctor receives a kick back for putting someone on chemotherapy. (Or for putting people on any other drugs, in Australia, at least). I have heard about some US and overseas clinicians taking huge kickbacks or payouts for either "speaking at a conference" or some other BS reason when they have prescribed enough of "drug A".

Thanks for that zed, I was serious about chemo killing cancer in me and the hash oil bit, the oncologist gambling with my life for kick backs part, ,no, not serious. I beleive they used the best legal treatment available to them at the time, to the best of their knowledge..

I also think that my success is not a mere statistical anomolie, i am alive today because of it. Perhaps that study wasnt broad enough to take those conclusions Too seriously?

Ps i am not a huge chemo fan or anything, much better treatments are available, now that i am older i can see that.

Edited December 15, 2015 by doublebenno

[Sallubrious]

Sorry to rub you the wrong way Zed.

I'll restate what I said earlier and say

"some doctors overtreat and over prescribe"

It sounds like those in your family are not in that group.

& Benno some forms of cancer are treated with chemo and have very good success rates. That study I quoted doesn't reflect that.

Sorry to offend you Zed, I should learn to think bit more before I write shit.

I've had a lot of bad experiences with doctors over the years, at one stage I was on 6 drugs for one condition, the last five were to treat the stmptoms of the previous drugs and they wanted to add more to the list.

Now I don't have health insurance I can't even get in to see a doctor that doesn't want to pump me full of pills to suppress the symptoms of what's going on. I know there are effective treatments for my problems (just fucked joints from injuries) but they are just not available to me.

I could bore you with other similar experiences but I'll spare the details, I just wanted you to see where I was coming from.

[2XB]

you can probably heal yourself sally, as most of us can.. . You should invest some research time there, you will never get better Beleiving that the solution isn't available to you...

What treatments do you think will help, but are unavailable to you?? ?

[Sallubrious]

I've spent the last 15 years researching it Benno. Most of my days and nights are consumed by research of some sort.

No treatment is available to me, the GP sends me to a a public hospital and the doctor sends me back to the GP - in a perpetual cycle that never ends. When I had a broken back I was sent to every hospital within 30 km of where I live only to be sent back to the GP. Catching a bus all around town with a broken back wasn't fun, I can assure you. It's almost impossible to get on a waiting list for a joint replacement (many other conditions too for that matter)if you don't have health care in OZ these days. It's just statistical manipulation and penny pinching.

So about treating myself, it's funny you say that. I've developed a stem cell treatment and I've had great success with it. I tore some articular cartilage off my femur the weekend before last and I used the stem cell treatment again last week. Now I'm back on my feet and almost pain free.

I don't even bother going to a GP any more. I just treat myself.

[courage]

Dealing with my own lifelong illness and having been through the medical system many times my personal opinion wouldn't necessarily oppose either views but rather take a bit of both perspectives. I agree I have met some wonderful sincere doctors who truly do have golden intentions. However I feel the biggest problem lies in the science of medicine itself and the way medical training shapes the views of those who take on this practice.

With modern medicine in general - the biggest influcening feature is the fact that major pharmaceutical companies are run as corporations for the interest of shareholders. Many times the interest of shareholders is not the same as the public good wiping out a disease or treating it effectively and cheaply is sometimes the opposite of making profit and hence the privatisation of medical research does have significant downsides because structurally our modern capitalist economy drives toward profit not healing, which should be the purpose of medicine.

I don't disregard that medicine has its place, but so many illnesses or diseases have a strong spiritual component which can commonly be the underlying cause and considering mainstream science essentially offers a complete disregard of such spirituality, or the etheric realms etc. most treatments can only offer a suppression of the underlying disease and not any genuine healing.

Again this is my experience with my own illness, so I don't want to generalise. I did study medical science at uni for less than a year before I reached this opinion and decided if I wanted to use my life to help/heal others that wasn't something I could find through mainstream education or science.

[Sallubrious]

I don't disregard that medicine has its place, but so many illnesses or diseases have a strong spiritual component which can commonly be the underlying cause and considering mainstream science essentially offers a complete disregard of such spirituality, or the etheric realms etc. most treatments can only offer a suppression of the underlying disease and not any genuine healing.

Sick or injured people often have tend to have emotional needs that are poorly handled by the current medical gestalt. In some ways that feeds into the spiritual component that you outlined.

Whenever two people meet there is flow of energy between the two and if that is impeded in any way it's unlikely that anything beneficial will come of the meeting. Almost all of the doctors I've ever encountered have a bedside manor that is belligerent & demeaning - just because I ask questions. Being rushed through their office in a few minutes doesn't help much towards that end either. How anything good can be expected to come from a meeting like that eludes me.

On the subject of profit driven motives of big pharma,

I could go on for days about this and add enough links to links to make your eyes pop, but I'll restrain myself.

Google - IG Farben nazi war crimes

The same people are driving codex alimentarius and big pharma today and actively quashing any competition - hand in hand with the Rockerfellas and the Rothschilds and the Bush family amongst others.

Edited December 15, 2015 by Sally

[Auxin]

The 'spiritual' component is neglected just as much by patients as it is by the medical profession.

Really, they seem to have the same archetype. Wait for the shit to hit the fan then try a 'magic bullet', like hoping statins will cure cardiovascular disease or that last minute prayer will make a stroke not have happened.

In buddhist philosophy (just because thats what I know) an essential fundamental part of the 'spirituality' is the advice to avoid any willful act of body, speech, or mind which will predictably cause harm to oneself or others. Most buddhists ignore this, they live on fatty meaty curries and mcdonalds, and when they have a stroke or get diabetes they look to the magic bullet false spirituality of chanting, holy water, and magic string.

Now is the best time to think things through and get your spiritual work done, especially if your still healthy now. It'll prevent some illness and let you handle the rest better.