russian jet shot down near turkish border

[ThunderIdeal]

posting this in news and notice because this is going to be major world news.

turkey has been upset about russia bombing the 'turkmen opposition' in syria. these are syrians with strong ties to turkey.

a russian su24 was shot down. turkey claims two of their f16s repeatedly warned it to leave turkish airspace before firing on it. russia claims they can prove their su24 wasn't in turkish airspace. they claim it was shot down from the ground. the turkmen appear to have captured the pilot/s and are preventing their rescue.

if russia's claims are true then they have been attacked by a NATO country.

[ThunderIdeal]

nato probably couldn't withstand russia. just sayin'

[DELETED ACCOUNT]

[ThunderIdeal]

 

if russia's claims are true then they have been attacked by a NATO country.

on further thought, if it was the syrian turkmen who shot the jet down then turkey has not attacked russia unprovoked.

however if turkish forces shot it down and it had not invaded their air space, then indeed the situation has become hairier.

FWIW turkey has been a major contributor to the current ugly situation. you could say that about almost any player in the region actually, but turkey has and continues to have an especially clumsy way of seeking their ends. unlike the other players outside the shiite crescent though, turkey until recently had improving relations with russia.

Edited November 24, 2015 by ThunderIdeal

[☽Ţ ҉ĥϋηϠ₡яღ☯ॐ€ðяئॐ♡Pϟiℓℴϟℴ]

thanks for the heads up and update ... , been watching like a hawk but got swept away with the tides of life last 2 weeks

edit- rt link? https://www.rt.com/news/323343-turkey-un-syria-russian-plane/

Edited November 24, 2015 by ☽Ţ ҉ĥϋηϠ₡яღ☯ॐ€ðяئॐ♡Pϟiℓℴϟℴ

[DiscoStu]

serious business.

turkey confirmed they shot down the jet, one of the pilots is dead, rescue helicopter downed and another russian dead

[ThunderIdeal]

It is worth considering this as an extreme example of the indirect conflict between Russia and America:

While we all know America is giving anti tank missiles to Syrian rebels to bolster their attacks on Syria and its supporters (Iran, Hezbollah), now we've seen one of these weapons used to destroy the downed Russian rescue chopper.

[DiscoStu]

It is worth considering this as an extreme example of the indirect conflict between Russia and America:

russia has been targeting syrian opposition for months. while they say they're striking "isis" it's well understood that they're targeting assad's opposition in general. of course, the opposition in syria consists now of what under normal circumstances the west would call "terrorists"

edit: so that is to say syrian opposition forces would love the chance to get back at russia as well. but yeah it's all a symbol of the east v west proxy war

Edited November 25, 2015 by DiscoStu

[Sallubrious]

Has anyone got any links to any credible sources of info about what's happened.

I saw a news report earlier that seemed to give somewhat contradictory accounts of what supposedly happened.

On one hand the Russians are denying that they even breached Turkish airspace and a dodgy graphic (source ambiguous) showed that the Russian jets crossed through the southern tip of Turkey. It was stated that the time in Turkish airspace was only 17 seconds.

They then went on to state that the Turks gave 10 warnings before ordering the shoot. It seems highly unlikely that 10 verbal warnings could be given in as little as 17 seconds.

It certainly is getting complicated now. Russia reportedly has thousands of its citizens fighting for the rebels in Syria so things could get complicated there and Obama has more or less surrounded himself with affiliates of the Muslim Brotherhood which is a conduit for Saudi funding for the rebels.

It's getting hard to tell who's Arthur and who's Martha.

[Change]

^^ i was just about to ask that

Where can one find credible information on these issues, the media propaganda seems like a waste of time,

Im looking for some facts

[☽Ţ ҉ĥϋηϠ₡яღ☯ॐ€ðяئॐ♡Pϟiℓℴϟℴ]

in my link lol

one source says 17 seconds , another says 10 warnings in 5 minutes

quote:-

The letter allegedly from Turkish UN Ambassador Halit Cevik reiterates Ankara’s claim that the two planes were “warned 10 times during a period of five minutes via ‘emergency’ channels” to change direction.

i don't believe there are links to credible sources which you seek like perhaps the last100 years of chemistry may have at it's disposal..

there is what there is though and i guess it's time to try and unpick .. if there's anything that needs unpicking ..

-usually the case when even just one side tells the truth

(usually can guarantee one side at least is going to deny the truth, and sometimes all sides will lie ...

perhaps go looking for prescedent set in history?)

either way ... one seems to take it as a violation of rules which is usually a bad thing when folk worry about how a next globality could be triggered by some..

(whether it was correct and factful or not looking back at the last globalities)

i hope you manage to find your facts prior to anything becoming too late ...

p.s. RT is really the most refreshing news after 31 years of bbc bullshit from my standpoint

Edited November 25, 2015 by ☽Ţ ҉ĥϋηϠ₡яღ☯ॐ€ðяئॐ♡Pϟiℓℴϟℴ

[DiscoStu]

^^ i was just about to ask that

Where can one find credible information on these issues, the media propaganda seems like a waste of time,

Im looking for some facts

i don't think you'll hear anything other than "he said she said", you'll just have to look at both sides and make a judgement who's telling the truth.

Needless to say, Moscow and Ankara are at odds over precisely what happened on Tuesday when a Russian Su-24 was shot down near the Syrian border.

The two pilots ejected and attempted to parachute to safety but Turkmen FSA-allied Alwiya al-Ashar militiamen shot at them as they fell before posting a video purporting to show rebel soldiers celebrating over one of the bodies. It only got worse from there when the FSA's 1st Coastal Brigade used a US-made TOW to destroy a Russian search and rescue helicopter.

Clearly, this was a marked escalation and indeed it was the first time a NATO member had engaged a Russian or Soviet warplane in more than 60 years.

The Kremlin was not happy as Vladimir Putin - who was meeting with King Abdullah in Jordan - proceeded to brand Erdogan a “backstabber” and an ISIS supporter. Sergei Lavrov subsequently canceled a planned trip to Turkey.

At issue now, is whether the Russian fighter jet did indeed, as Turkey claims, venture into Turkish airspace or whether the Turks actually engaged Moscow’s warplane in the skies over Syria.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-11-24/17-seconds-changed-world-leaked-letter-exposes-turkeys-hair-trigger-reality

It's important not to forget the context here. Ankara is fiercly anti-Assad and in addition to being generally displeased with Russia's efforts to support the regime, just four days ago, Turkey summoned Russian ambassador Andrey Karlov over the alleged bombing of Turkish villages near the border. "Turkey has asked Russia to 'immediately end its operation,'" AFP reported, adding that "Ankara warned bombing villages populated by the Turkmen minority in Syria could lead to 'serious consequences.'"

Of course Russia wasn't just bombing Turkish civilians for the sheer hell of it. It's likely Moscow was targeting the very same FSA-affiliated Alwiya al-Ashar militiamen who shot and killed the parachuting Russian pilot earlier today.

In short, it looks like Ankara saw an opportunity to shoot down a Russian jet in retaliation for strikes on Turkish rebel fighters who are operating alongside anti-Assad forces. Erdogan is essentially gambling that Russia will not retailiate militarily against Turkey because doing so would open the door for a direct confrontation with NATO.

[Sallubrious]

So now we have a situation where the semantics of NATO rules of engagement should be applied. Which can get rather complicated as there are both private (covert - the official NATO ROE Manual MC 362-1) and public documents (overt - The San Remo Rules of Engagement Handbook). So this seems like a closed shop situation where "the powers that be" seem to have licence to decide behind closed doors whether the engagement was legal or not.

Then we have the Geneva conventions and other laws pertaining to prisoners of war and their treatment after capture. There's some well defined points in there that could be considered legal if the initial incident was proven to breach the NATO rules of engagement, if not it was an act of barbarism.

The gloves could come off over this one and it seems like the conventions of war established over the last century are rapidly breaking down in this conflict.

I see one source that seems to gain from all possible outcomes, playing off enemies against each other for their own benefit - and it's not the US or Russia .

It seems like the project has come to be.

[ThunderIdeal]

Tony Abbott?

[DiscoStu]

rescued russian pilots perspective, I wouldn't necessarily believe it out of hand though

"There were no warnings. Not via the radio, not visually. There was no contact whatsoever. That's why we were keeping our combat course as usual. You have to understand what the cruising speed of a bomber is compared to an F-16. If they wanted to warn us, they could have shown themselves by heading on a parallel course. But there was nothing. And the rocket hit our tail completely unexpectedly. We didn't even see it in time to take evasive maneuvers."

http://sputniknews.com/russia/20151125/1030742094/pilot-su24-rescued-no-turkish-space-violation.html

[ThunderIdeal]

Russia has deployed the s-400 in Syria now.

[ThunderIdeal]

It seemed to be common knowledge for some time that Isis sold oil across the Turkish border cheap. This is important because it funds Isis, and recently America was asked why they haven't bothered to target the hundreds of oil tankers behind the sales. Russia and us have each destroyed hundreds of tankers in the past few days but here is where increasing Turkish bitterness over russias campaign gets interesting; some are fingering the Turkish presidents son as the businessman profiting on cheap terrorist oil.

Meanwhile others are trying to blame the Syrian government for trading in terror is oil.

The latter seems inherently unlikely but I'm not dismissing it completely.

[ThunderIdeal]

Thunderhorse I like rt news too but I hope you don't just get all your news from one place.

Rt news, beyond any possible doubt, is extremely biased.

[miss-meander88]

Im sorry for throwing my invaluable two cents in...

But why cant any intelligence led country see that retaliation is not helping anyone. ...

If anything it is merely exacerbating the problem....

[Sallubrious]

That's a sane perspective mm

In a war there's big bucks to be made - weapons sales, logistcal support, supplies etc etc

History has shown that bankers and other tycoons have often funded both sides and made enormous profits from all previous global conflicts.

Throw a few sociopathic egotistical heroes into the mix and doesn't much for mr X to get mr A and mr B to fight it out. Then you just sit back and cash in.

Sociopaths (on this level) are easily manipulated because of their adherence to nationalist or religious ideals and they are good at rallying the support of sympathetic idiots because of their natural charm.

Intelligence is only small factor in something like this - ego plays a much bigger role.

Edited November 26, 2015 by Sally

[☽Ţ ҉ĥϋηϠ₡яღ☯ॐ€ðяئॐ♡Pϟiℓℴϟℴ]

definitely seeking more news sources all the time , there's kinda too many it seems to keep up with lol

i really was impressed by the exposure of my island's coverage on there... -or else i wouldn't get to know if it was left to the erm .. "native" imposed mandatory licence fee media.

and saved a fortune in paying the bbc over a hundred quid a year for expensive lies now that internet killed the tv star

but thanks dude,

+ .. I can't say it's not because of the considerably hotter reporters/readers ;)

i blame Abbey Martin initially ... rawrz..

Edited November 26, 2015 by ☽Ţ ҉ĥϋηϠ₡яღ☯ॐ€ðяئॐ♡Pϟiℓℴϟℴ

[ThunderIdeal]

:_(

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-12-01/murder-and-mayhem-middle-east-why-it-matters-those-living-west

Edited December 2, 2015 by ThunderIdeal

[Sallubrious]

I think Chris made a fair assessment of the situation in that article. He made a point of isolating religion from the issue as if it was a trivial factor, I see religion as a tool being used by the Saudis to create division and at the same time unite otherwise disparate groups with vastly different interests and they are funding any effort that will help their cause.

If a Saudi led caliphate can be re-established under the wing of Saudi wahhabism then the problems for the west will become infinitely worse than Chris has envisaged.

I believe religion is a very important factor in all this and most of the players are being used as puppets in an us or them scenario by Saudi instigators in western nations and the middle east. .

As I said above it's all about control of energy resources and the financial power that ensues.

Edited December 2, 2015 by Sally