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mysubtleascention

Abuse Of Power In Ceremonies That Use Psychoactive Substances

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Who'd have thought that people making money out of other peoples mental instability might try and take advantage of those same people.

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i think ill move this into chill space, i think it would be better there and more people will see it

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Whats does the sharman have in common with the priest ?

They both like taking advantage of people

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wow, this thread became utterly appalling super fast!

change, that's just plain stupid mate. and offensive. perhaps it's time for you to CHANGE your ways :wink:

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Maybe its time for sharmans and priests to CHANGE their ways..... either that or ill happily shine a light on their corruption time and time again.

From my point of view abuse carried out by self proclaimed healers is utterly appalling.

I understand we all have different points of view, and im sorry mine offends yours.

Edit: spelling

Edited by Change
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Maybe you could articulate your views better? Not all shamans or priests are abusers. Sweeping statements don't really contribute to quality discussion.

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I came across this last week and thought it was an interesting approach for people heading over there that want to read up a bit on other peoples experiences at different places. Tripadvisor for the psychedelic tourist I guess.

http://ayaadvisor.org/

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Well, put that in your moral relativist entheobotanical laissez faire economic pipe and smoke it!

I'd expand upon change's view by stating that not all priests and shamans are abusers (obviously), and that some are fantastic people.

But, the nexus of money and spiritual power seems to attract abusers like flies on shit. Or maybe these conditions creates abusers. My point is that there seems to be a pretty regular occurrence of abuse in situations where there is a concentration of spiritual or religious power, especially where there is a simultaneous financial motive. This has happened across many different religious and spiritual organisations - the royal commission has shown the breadth of this. Santo Daime, shamans and ayahuasqueros are capable of being involved in the same sort of abuses. Not only can we hope that the institutions involved do a better job in responding than the mainstream churches have done thus far, but we can (and should) model good behaviour and help create expectations of what is acceptable.

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well said Yeti.

I'm the sort of person who puts every living thing before myself. I am very meek by nature. I just give and give of myself for others. some will say this is a mental condition. LOL. wWat ever makes it possible to justify their actions to themselves i guess.

As you would imagine, i have been used and abused in almost every way imaginable.

I,like shamans concern myself with the well-being of my community, animals, and the nature I'm part of, as a whole. I have interests in healing too. Whilst I am not specialist in anything, or any plants in particular I thus do fit the criteria of Shaman. I take much pride in that. So yeah, i do find it offensive. have we not yet learned as people in the year 2015 that pigeon-holing anything / anyone leads to only harm?

Change, if you looked into "shaman's" or correct spelling will help you here. in it's the page title for ...sake. you'd have come to see that much of your expressed views are intrinsic to shamanism. You'd thus find that you have also offended yourself.

edit -

I have not ever abused or taken advantage of anyone. sexually, financially, or physically, my whole life long. Not once.

Edited by ghosty
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I,like shamans concern myself with the well-being of my community, animals, and the nature I'm part of, as a whole. I have interests in healing too. Whilst I am not specialist in anything, or any plants in particular I thus do fit the criteria of Shaman. I take much pride in that. So yeah, i do find it offensive. have we not yet learned as people in the year 2015 that pigeon-holing anything / anyone leads to only harm?

I'll vouch for that. Shoving pigeons into peoples holes never ends well.

You lube them up and they slip in OK, but when you try to pull them back out the feathers dig in & they get stuck.

 

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Is the incidence of abuses higher than in the general population? Hard to say, given much probably goes unreported.

Humans in general need to change their ways.

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good question and good point.

Given the size of the america's and the differing issues and beliefs retained by the folks throughout the region, some bad is bound to happen. Add to that, the views of many brazilians and no doubt many other areas, that those with money or seen as having money (gringo tourists) must have got it through bad / brujo means. this would mean to them, that they are not of the same worth.

In terms of ayahuasca, I'd imagine many tourists bring it on to themselves too. After all, this is the main reason some add toa (plain stupid). but gringo must have his chased effects, at any cost. with pharmacological views that dont mean anything pertaining to ayahuasca. Their ignorance leads to changes being made that are not in the best interests of anyone concerned. The result? deaths.

What we can see is that western ignorance is mostly to blame. along with cultural clashes. full stop.

Edited by ghosty
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It's a supply and demand issue in some respects, when people come in droves with pockets full of greenbacks someone will supply what they want.

Whenever you get a situation like that unscrupulous practitioners will move into any field, especially in countries where poverty is rife. It will also happen in more affluent countries but to a lesser degree as life generally has a higher value in affluent society.

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What we can see is that western ignorance is mostly to blame. along with cultural clashes. full stop.

Let me see if I'm reading this right.

Western ignorance = ignorant westerners = blame the victim

Cultural clashes = armchair moral relativism = excusing the actions of the abuser

Perhaps I'm missing something. Feel free to enlighten me.

It's a supply and demand issue in some respects, when people come in droves with pockets full of greenbacks someone will supply what they want.

Whenever you get a situation like that unscrupulous practitioners will move into any field, especially in countries where poverty is rife. It will also happen in more affluent countries but to a lesser degree as life generally has a higher value in affluent society.

I think that's right, relative inequality definitely makes unscrupulous behavior more likely - or maybe it changes the kind of unscrupulous activity - we have plenty of bent bastards in Australia, they just end up in a different line of work. I think there's more to it though. Abuse in institutions happens here too, and we have nowhere near the level of absolute poverty that exists in south America.

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"Whenever you get a situation like that unscrupulous practitioners will move into any field, especially in countries where poverty is rife. It will also happen in more affluent countries but to a lesser degree as life generally has a higher value in affluent society."

maybe. or perhaps they have a network of vested interests / numerous "medical bodies" that protect these unscrupulous people, and paint over such matters with fancy colors. If you have ever had to deal with a negligent "doctor" here, or just looked into sri materials and medicine criteria you notice something rather alarming.

something that directly conflicts with your statement.

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"

Let me see if I'm reading this right.

Western ignorance = ignorant westerners = blame the victim

Cultural clashes = armchair moral relativism = excusing the actions of the abuser"

nice lot of hideous assumptions.

Enlighten you? hmm, i doubt that's possible. I'm sure you can read, and have the net.

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Whenever money enters into the spiritual realm its material nature cannot help but taint that experience to some degree, no matter how small.

They are codependent, in that the spiritual is the yin to the material's yang.

Complete sincerity in deed is therefore less common nowadays when compared to the past. We as a species have become so much more materialistic, so that the spirit as motivating factor for communion and brotherhood amongst mankind is placed further and further into the distance.

This is also why when we encounter those that embody nobility of spirit and sincerity of deed it is so powerful. As Lao Tzu said, "Best to look for it in you!"

or something...

and from reset.me

http://reset.me/story/20-safety-tips-for-participating-in-ceremonies-that-use-psychoactives/

Edited by Responsible Choice
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Well, put that in your moral relativist entheobotanical laissez faire economic pipe and smoke it!

I love this place :lol:

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First I'd like to express caution about lumping priests and Shamans together

In my opinion a priest and a shaman are two separate things entirely, hence the two separate terms

Priests have been historically associated with the rise of powerful Empires, hence we can speak meaningfully of Egyptian priests, and with these powerful empires they emerge in societies that have marked social differentiation between the powerful and the powerless, between Gods, and men, between royalty and commoners. The Egyptian priests, for example, spent their time tending to their opulent temples and cared not at all for the wellbeing of the common people.

The same basic dynamic carries through to Christianity and Catholic priests, who, again, despite the rhetoric of concern for the meek and powerless, turned their backs on the people in general, if not engaged in actively exploiting them. They too traditionally moved in circles of power and prestige, case in point: the Vatican and all it represents

Shamans, traditional, Shamans on the other hand, were intimately connected with their communities, it is true that in some cases they were elevated in the eyes of others, but just as often they were considered to be outcasts, or just ordinary people who took on the role (on many occasions reluctantly) because they had been chosen by supernatural entities. Even when they were considered to be set apart as special individuals, they were distinguished from others very simply by their manner of dress, some special headdress or facial paint at the most, never, ever, were they distinguished by living in more opulent surroundings, by having more wealth or more power than the tribal leaders (if such leaders existed), and instead of being removed from the general community, they were deeply embedded within it particularly in relation to their role as healers of the sick..

And this leads me to my next point, which is an essential one, the 'Shamans' being referred to in the article posted, by practicing and applying their 'arts' to people who come from outside their immediate indigenous community, be they Westerner, or Eastern, or whoever, are by definition not Shamans at all. I've seen such people referred to as Neo-Shamans, but that is too kind a nomenclature in my opinion, opportunists is a better way of putting it, psychedelic entrepreneurs, might be a nicer take (particularly as i understand that they take monetary payments for their services in, which no true Shaman ever would) . At any rate, they are not Shamans. In this almost completely globalized world of ours perhaps there are no Shamans anymore. But if there are, they practice their trade entirely within the isolated communities of which they are a part, they would personally know the individuals they practice on, and rely heavily upon their common cultural and mythological background, their complex shared world-view, in order to effect their cures.

Edited by MrWormwood
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People can find it hard to control alot of things to do with sex, money, and drugs.

Priest and shaman too!

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People definitely do love to defend that which they love dearly.
Almost like the church defending the priests every time that pops up.

Why do people go to shamans? For healing?
Why not go to a Dr? Do they say things that you don't like?

The only kinds of people that I've known to go to shamans and the like and take it seriously are those that are battling deep seated psychological issues. And having those kinds of issues isn't a problem. Its a pretty fucked up world. If you didn't get some mental discomfort from your life then you probably aren't paying attention. The thing that I don't understand is why someone with psychological issues would go to seek out people that aren't functioning particularly well in the modern world as it is so as to be "helped" so they can function in the modern world more appropriately. It doesn't make sense.

And I understand that if you go to a Doctor about your mental issues it can be really damn tough to talk to them about because you feel broken. I've been there. Surrounding yourself with other potentially unstable individuals so that you can "feel better" will never do ANYTHING to help you out.

And yes i know that not every single person who looks for spiritual healing and guidance is dealing with mental shit but the vast majority are and getting yourself fucked up on substances that affect your brain in unfathomably complicated ways is probably not the best approach.

And the environment for abuse couldn't be better. Hypothetical situation below:

"Hi there mr police officer. I went to this ceremony involving partaking in an illicit substance with a whole heap of other people. And this guy that I paid for the "not drugs that are actually drugs" took advantage of me and abused me"

Most people would be so damn paranoid about getting themselves into shit and potentially the other people there that they might not say anything. The fact that there are any reported cases in such a dodgy scene is quite surprising.

If you take this as a personal attack that is your own fault. I don't mean it that way at all.

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love, take a laxative.. and hope it doesn't hit real sudden :wink:

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i understand that they take monetary payments for their services in, which no true Shaman ever would

so the shaman's that want $500 per brew arent real shaman's then ?

i wonder why most people still refer to them as shaman's? i think spiritual salesman is a much more accurate term

If a shaman was in touch with the spiritual world, like for example Jesus was, then why do they need money from their customers? why cant they just turn a loaf a bread and a fish into a meal that will feed thousands ?

If shaman's are so good at healing, then why do most of them come from countries with lower life expectancy and where large numbers of people die from preventable diseases on a regular basis?

@ ghosty - you sound to me like a very nice shaman, its a shame my shamanistic experiences weren't as positive as yours, maybe if i meet a shaman like you my point of view would be different. I can see the flaws in my previous statements, no two shaman are the same so i shouldn't be judging them as a whole.

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Aya Banana -

ego death horny

.. personality


splits !

Edited by mysubtleascention
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