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Pat Uri

Positive Drug Drive test may not show impairment

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Phaemon's Dog was sort of expecting someone to post this,,,Oh,well no better person to get something to happen than yourself!

THE NSW Greens have called for roadside drug testing to be abolished after obtaining classified police documents showing a positive reading does not mean a driver is under the influence of illicit drugs.

Upper House MP David Shoebridge said the tests had no lower limit for detection, meaning a person could be found guilty of driving with drugs in their system that may have had no impact on their driving abilities.

"Information obtained by the Greens through the freedom of information process has shown that the current roadside drug testing regime is arbitrary, invasive and has no relationship to the impairment of drivers on our roads," he said in a statement.

"The NSW police force strongly resisted the release of this information, and it was necessary to undertake an internal review to have the materials released.

"The public would have deep concerns that the NSW police force are laying charges, investigating and conducting prosecutions with no information on what exactly is tested for in roadside drug tests or at what levels."

The internal NSW Police documents state: "This program does not infer impaired driving or driving a motor vehicle under the influence of a drug. This program detects the presence of an illicit drug in a subject's oral fluid."

"Testing certificates received from the Forensic and Analytical Science Service do not disclose quantity as there is no prescribed quantity of drug to be tested for," it continues.

The National Cannabis Prevention and Information Centre says marijuana can affect driving ability for up to five hours.

"The length of time it stays in your system depends on a lot of things, but in general it may be found in urine for one to five days after occasional use and up to six weeks if you're a regular, long-term user," it says.

Drugs such as ice and heroin are much quicker to be flushed out of the body despite being considered more serious forms of illegal drug.

Drug testing frequency is set to skyrocket from a current 32,000 tests to 97,000 in 2017 as police ramp up the program.

The increase has the Centre for Road Safety's support after its researchers found 195 deaths on NSW roads between 2010 and 2013 involved drivers or riders with at least one of three illegal drugs - ecstasy, speed or marijuana - in their systems.

The centre found at least 13% of all road deaths involved a driver with drugs in their system - whether it impaired their driving, or not.

Australia has one of the highest rates of marijuana use in the world, with the Australian Institute of Health and Welfare finding 34.8% of people aged 14 or older had used the drug at least once.

​AUSTRALIAN REGIONAL NEWS - APN Newsdesk

Spare a thought for high risk construction workers who are randomly urine tested AS4308 and sacked for a positive 3 days later. 3 days of being "impaired" at work for a joint they smoked a couple of weeks ago. Unfit for work, but perfectly legal to drive home. If you're drunk at work, you are driven home and given two more chances. Because alcohol is legal and cannabis ain't. There is no cut off for an illegal drug the merest trace will do. For cannabis that's 20nanos/ml - 20 ppb - that's like 20mm in 1000km. That's right - like noticing a thumbprint on the medial strip of the highway from Brisbane to Sydney.

Not cool is it?

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I've tested positive twice. The first time for a screening before I got a job, I returned a reading of 1200 after 1 1/2 years of continuous use and quitting for 2 months. It took me 14 weeks after quitting to be totally clear and then they employed me. The second was only having 1/2oz over a week period with a 3 1/2 week break, it showed up as a non negative in a urine strip test. I hadn't had anything for months prior to this. I got an independent lab test and it came back with a reading of 100 after 4 weeks. Lucky for me I have cool bosses and they gave me a second chance. A urine strip test showed all clear after a total of 5 weeks. I guess it doesn't help that I have some excess storage on my part, a person with almost no body fat will store very little. Now I just have to abstain and not have any at all.

I remember watching a show about road crash investigations set in NZ where 2 cars had a head-on on a corner. Both drivers had THC in their system so the coroner put the accident down to that. It's total bullshit, they may not have had anything for days or weeks, maybe even months, but their families are led to believe that it was a contributing factor.

I hate the fact that people can get sacked for personal use in their own time when it doesn't impede their work. Yet you can commit heinous crimes yet your employer can't sack you but a little bit of herb is enough to condem you. How is this not discrimination? The laws are totally screwed up.

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I hear you, brother Maxofoz. But like Pat Uri would say "The law does not have to be right, the law does not have to be correct, the law does not have to be undiscriminationing:- the law must merely be the law, and that is that."

AND he is a Tribal Law Maker - but man, I wish the likes of him made national laws! He also said something like "Social disobedience is necessary because the precursor to political and legal change has always been cultural change" or something really heady like that. You is so lucky, Pat Uri himself used to do big hash oil milkshakes (bhang lasski - I think they are called, something to do with Hindu aghori sadhus rituals secret Big Men's Business) and I mean tablespoons of the black oil went into them - absolutely hallucinogenic, nasty gear - daily, for years. When he gave up - to prove a point about cannabis not so addictive - he self tested his urine and for MONTHS it was testing positive, in spite of no use. Toward the end some days it would be positive, next days negative, then positive again for a while. He thought it hilarious. Didn't stop developers allowing him on site though (amongst his many talents he's a licensed builder of, no less, high rise - post stress tensioned, suspended concrete multilevel commercial structures. Recently the new (OBSCURED) shopping facility at Burleigh Heads - and man that is big clue to who he actually is. Oh, and plenty more funny stories to that one!) - they are very selective about the results of the test. So if anyone at Burleigh noticed a bare foot, black fella, sucking a cigar and wearing filthy hi-vis with big company logos OWNING that building site 24/7 and even sleeping on it - that was him.

It is all nothing to do with public safety, fitness for work - it is all to do with Corporate Insurance underwriters attempting to worm out of their promises. So people don't blame It on the cops - they "only doing their job" or in the study of morality "defer to higher authority" the Stanford Prison experiment. The SS only burned the jews for the same reason - may Babylon fall!

Yeah I was really interested why none of our ever vigilant NSW forum family posted this before me. Surely if a Member of the Legislative Council says citizens have been wrongfully persecuted by a faulty legio-medical test that should be BIG NEWS - even bigger than Miley Cyrus in a bikini - and all the NSW media should be baying for blood. Our forum brothers and sisters would be screaming it to our attention.

Why does a dirty QLD dog have to break the news to forum?. Was it or was it not widely reported? I'd appreciate the news. Ta!

P'sDog (phaemon's dog) Jah bless! Respect to y'all! Bye.

Edited by Pat Uri
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My understanding of roadside testing in NSW is that saliva swabs are used, which can detect metabolites for around 6 hours, and if a positive result is found, then urine or other testing is used to confirm it. But I have been wrong in the past, and will continue to be wrong in the future...

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Respect! Brother Glaukus - many thanks for your kind regards in previous posts, solid bro- I love the local knowledge. Can you tell me if it is true these roadside tests for drugs involve first an alcohol test? By breath analysis, yes? Handsome you are. From P'sDog of clan Pat Uri.

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Roadside testing between states is the same, swab then urine test if it was indicated on the swab. And yes it is only supposed to pick up any illegal substance that was consumed in the last 6 hours regardless of consumption method. I've had a few swabs done on commissionings and also a stupid amount of urine tests during construction. I've been on sites where you have to blow in the bag every morning and even one site where you had to do it every time you came back after leaving site.

I definitely don't hold a grudge against police for doing any sort of testing. Like Pat Uri said, they're only doing their job. It's Johnny Law maker and his corporate cronies that do unjust testing of urine on worksites that gets my goat. If you take LSD the body sees it as a toxin and flushes it from your body in 24hrs, amphetamines and methamphetamines disappear after 3 days but have a toke and your body stores it.

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Pat uri, are you saying you are a stresser?????

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I think that due to the cost of the tests themselves, and the time taken to perform them, the swab tests are usually more specifically targeted than regular traffic rbts. I would say traffic leaving some of the summertime festivals, for example, would be much more likely to be subjected to such scrutiny rather than the Friday night homeward bound work traffic.

P's Dog, please pass on my regards to master Pat Uri (pituri?), it is we who are in his debt for sharing his unsurpassed knowledge is such an entertaining way.

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Taskmaster P'sDog in session, folks - J​​ah smiles on you all. In CQ anyway, first you are breath test for the alcohol.

If you have = or < 0.0499% bless you and off you go. If you have = or > 0.0500% curse you pisshead and you stay for the grilling. Open license that is.

If you have 0.0000%, or a P plater and you are swab tested for the drugs - especially the focus on the unmentionable herb. Yeah, I know conviction by numbers, but law is law.

Now it is not that the man is encouraging, protecting and supporting the Government's enshrined alcohol habit, but any trace of oral alcohol changes the blood/tissue partition, interferes with enzymes and antibodies and makes swab testing contestable in court.

No stresser be the Dog - only the Pat Uri has the power to make every computer in the 3rd world mass against a site at his bidding. - you mean a stirrer trying to cause a d.dos stampede of reply posts?

But please good people - did you first hear the words of esteemed elder MP Shoebridge today here, or not?

Faith and Love. P'sDog.

Edited by Pat Uri
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But please good people - did you first hear the words of esteemed elder MP Shoebridge today here, or not?

Faith and Love. P'sDog.

Yes I did - from the good MLC himself. A top bloke he is and a great barrister with the finest legal acuities and a magnificent public and media presence..

Love your gear Pat and P's Dog.

Respect

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Did I just figure out who you are?

Yes I think I did. You had a different profile but that was approximately one million minutes ago, maybe even two million.

Eh maybe I'm wrong, doesn't matter anyway.

Edited by ThunderIdeal
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Yeah many thanks folks. Seems to this furry, big mouth, long tongued P's Dawg that a bit of sneakiness is afoot. It is written its a roadside Breath Alcohol Concentration analysis O​R ​roadside Drug Analysis of Saliva, but it is not both. The blood/tissue/breath/saliva partition is a bit of a problem for both tests to be conducted together! If you have had anything in your mouth such as last drink, they have to wait twenty minutes for BAC - if your mouth is bleeding and the partition is broken and if you have been chewing high pH rum flavoured tobacco, or worse yet limed up betel, things get as complicated as alcohol mouthwash. If you have 0.0000% alcohol, but the officer "suspects" that you are impaired - speech slurred, red eyes, strange behaviour, a black fella playing roots reggae, white fella playing satanic metal etc. - then they can swab you. But have under-the-limit alcohol to explain your impairment and the partition is broken and the swab is compromised = so on your way and get the passenger to text everybody where the RID patrol are stationed and flash your lights at oncoming traffic...what a sticky, sticky web Babylon has spun! Have a little ganja stuck between your teeth from days before during a swab "and we'll see you in Botany Bay!". Serves you right for not flossing, ya pothead.

So I take it that respected elder MP David Shoebridge's righteous words were not the favourite headline of the NSW mass media last week...That noble MP - may the Most High multiply his blessings - had to use the swear word "freedom of information" to extract it from Babylon anyway. Very controversial stuff for the Insurance Law prop. Ltd. shareholders and their media and political fingerpuppets isn't it? There is nothing this little dog loves more than a fresh pile of bullshit to roll around in when I find it. I do believe Pat Uri will be smoking a few cigars and sipping cognacs with his barrister over this one...

Blessing all - keep PhaemonsDog up on the word of our fair democratic country, or lack there of.

Hey ThundeIdeal did you hit him, Pat Uri, up for some tobacco - that's a reliable way to tell if it is him or not.

Edited by Pat Uri
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It doesn't get much clearer than that folks.

Although I don't understand what is meant by a broken partition.

Drive responsibly.

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"only doing their job"

This statement absolutely shits me to tears. The guards in auschwitz were "only doing their job" are these people f'ing robots?

As if they have no choice at all? Male bovine fecal matter!!! That argument certainly didnt save them from the Nuremberg trials.

If your employer orders you to do something that you know is inherently morally wrong how the fuck do you sleep at night?

There are choices those who wear uniforms can make. A sicky, look the other way (puts a new perspective on schultz from hogan's heroes does it not?), transfer or just plain quit!

Most just choose not to make a choice. Instead falling back on "we must follow the orders" or the ever popular "its the law" :BANGHEAD2:

I have been in precisely that position multiple times and I chose to sleep at night.

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Who produces the swab ?

What is it designed to detect ?

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Change; I'm sure there are many options depending on the contractor the company/govt dept uses. At least that's what my employer told me when I asked for specifics on the test they are implementing soon. They hadn't decided on a contractor apparently and hence couldn't provide the specifics of the test.

Edit; they did say it was for pot/opiates/amp and also to disclose prescription meds prior to the test to the contractor who comes in (private from the employer)

Edited by theuserformallyknownasd00d
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P's Dog here Pat Uri has a strong chemistry background and has explained to me exactly how it works, but it went right over my head - Gee I'm a dog, not a cat, for goodness sake what do you expect? When he gets back from his walkabout - which accounts for the some of the CQ Yowie sightings lately - and if he's not so grumpy he'll explain and you peoples will probably get it better than me.

But what I do know is it is a long way from satisfactory analysis and only the more expensive lab tests can determine true drug presence - not quantity, just presence. It is an Amplified Reverse Immunoassay test that is cheap and nasty a sort of "white-man-magic" to impress the public.

Developed from the same tech as in a pregnancy test which was designed to pick up the few molecules of hCG that a fertilized egg releases when it implants in the womb. That's how tiny the amount of test material you need to set it off - you could blow a puff of smoke on it and set it off. Thousands of times less than could possibly "impair" you, you honestly wouldn't notice. It is hair triggered and often gives a false positive - that is says there is test material present, but really isn't. It very, very rarely gives a false negative - says nothing is there, when in fact you are on it. Of course we all know our truth - but every alcohol driver is in denial. ("So how many drinks have you had tonight, driver?" "Arrr - only one or two officer, not enough to be over the limit." lying through their teeth.) Stoners may well have had consumed hours before and genuinely don't feel impaired and are spun out when they get swabbed positive. No need to be, the swab is often wrong.

See hCG is a whopping big molecule with hundreds of identification points - but d9-THC is tiny and the N-methyl,phenylisopropylamines tinier still all with only a couple of identification points. Fortunately that is what it tests for - not tetra hydrocannabinoid carboxylic acid which has no impairment.

To make the pregnancy test they put hCG - only found in humans - into a bunny rabbit and as a foreign protein the bunny makes antibodies to it. Antibodies are even bigger proteins. These rabbit antibodies are removed and because they only react with hCG can be used to detect its presence in the part-per-billion range. The antibody gets a gold atom attached to each and every molecule and put on the butt end of a strip of film. When the film gets wet capillary action makes the gold labelled protein creep slowly to a point on the film that's got a gold activated invisible dye on it and the gold changes it to coloured meaning the antibody has made it to that part of the film. If there is hCGH in the "wet" it locks to the antibody making a dirty, dirty big protein that never makes it to the dye and so no colour appears - the positive result.

To make the drug test, they find the drug receptor proteins from a sheep, and put those in the bunny. The bunny makes now sheep drug receptor protein antibodies. These bunny antibodies are put into another sheep that make antibodies to the rabbit antibodies of sheep drug receptor proteins - a big protein antibody. These anti-antibody-anti-receptor proteins are labelled and put on a strip with the other proteins. Theoretically in the presence of the test drug the receptor proteins close up, can't react with the antibodies that can react with the labelled anti-antibody-anti-receptor to make a dirty, dirty big protein and the gold never makes it to the dye and so no colour appears - the positive result.

Tiny traces of a reaction that set off a bigger reaction to set off an even bigger reaction that stop a reaction from happening, hence the term amplified.

One tiny flaw - its all crap! With so many steps there is more chance of failure in any of the preceding steps - and so the false positive.

However the insurance companies wanted a cheap and quick test and they wanted it now. And drug companies don't say no to making money.

So like it or not, another much more expensive test has to be done from an expensive machine the police have to cart with them. It may use tech only a little better than the swab, same antibody/antigen/dye tech but no amplification just a powerful microscope to read the test strip - less chance of false positive, but still there.

Police hope that by the time you get to court it has been checked and verified by a lab using the proper gear.

Sorry no way for me to explain it any simpler, and anyway it is still hocus pocus mumbo jumbo however explained. Pat Uri is the guru at explaining chemistry.

Hope it helps a bit - even just to point out how complex it is that not even the testing constable really knows what they are actually doing....funny that.

The mystique of the Law is the name given to the bluff - hoping you'll just plead guilty.

Ever heard the one about the Emperor's new clothes?

Had to give you good people something back for your support! Shine On!

Edited by Pat Uri
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When this P'Dog first read

It doesn't get much clearer than that folks.

Although I don't understand what is meant by a broken partition.

Drive responsibly.

I had thought it the wittiest funny of the day - a very good thing and so clever of ThunderIdeal - of course you wouldn't break your car's partition if you were driving responsibly would you! The partition is the barrier between the front and rear passengers.

But now it has dawned on me that TI and others, fact most people, might not be familiar with the term partition. Silly me.

An excellent example of "partition" is the old A/B extraction. When a non-polar "oily" layer floats on top of the polar "water" layer the partition is where the two liquids meet. Materials in those solutions will cross back and forth across the partition until they set up an equilibrium - always be some material in both solutions, but the material will find the one it is most soluble in or likes being in the most. But this depends hugely on temperature, pH and saltiness of the water phase and the temperature and what else is in the oily organic solvent phase. Tweaking these factors, even a little bit, can make huge changes in the materials movements across the partition and even complex mixtures can have their bits singled out.

So it is THC and freebase alkaloid prefers to stay in the fatty tissues, but THC carboxylic acid and the alkaloid salts prefer the watery tissues. The body has folds and folds of fatty layers and watery layers holding materials at different concentrations across these partitions. So it is that the concentration of material depends very much on what body fluid you have sampled, but also temperature, pH and the presence of other materials. This and the fact the body is continuously changing the chemistry of those materials. If you mix body fluids - that sounds rude doesn't it? - e.g. got blood and saliva in your mouth the partition is broken and equilibriums really changed. Introduce a co-solvent that is soluble, miscible, in both fatty layer and watery layer - e.g. ALCOHOL - and your testing is worthless, especially when you are mucking around the parts per billion, the partition is broken.

Pity though - I thought it a cracker of a joke that I've just spoilt! OK. and bye 4 now!

Edited by Pat Uri
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Dog back, saw above didn"t mention that with Breath Alcohol Analysis - which Drug Swabbing is the poor cousin and cross culture between the two happens - the partition is tween alcohol in blood and air in lungs. Air you breathe in got no alcohol, so some moves from high concentration in blood into the air of the lungs and comes out in the expired breath since alcohol has high vapour pressure at the body temperature- the partition at the lungs themselves air/blood interface - it doesn't just have to be only between liquids. So because body temp is constant, blood at constant pH and saltiness and air pressure close constant - the amount of alcohol in the expired breath is true indication of how much in the blood. Now that is fair, understandable, no probs. (I hear at high altitudes you get false higher than true reading) Public think Drug Swab just as fair - and it ain't, no way - too many variables.

Watching that RID show and police pull over a P plater who had stayed sober to drive his four blind drunk mates home. When the police breatho'd him he had say 0.002% breath alcohol. You could see his horror and honesty in swearing he had not touched a drop. Now most cops are fair - lets face it - a more than few, have got the power trip and lost it to the Stanford Prison syndrome. Some people act like real, well, dogs abusing and disrespecting the cops and act up being psycho arseholes - do that and how do you think they'll treat you? (These are the same dogs that swear at the judge but try to reduce their punishment by crying it was the drugs that made them do it, had to feed their addiction wanting special treatment, leniency and sympathy like pussies. Yet you were listening to them outside court and they are bragging about being real, hard gangsters, hooking up deals on their mobiles, ordering imaginary hits and big noteing themselves for all to hear - hypocrite scum! - they give all of us, and the herb, a bad name .)

The Senior cop, and they see straight through things, told this fella calm down, you've been in a closed car for last hour beathing in all your drunken mates stinking, alcohol-laden fumes and not fresh air. Again this is where the partition was broken, and he was actually taking in alcohol traces from the air he was breathing. They'd wait 20 minutes while he breathed fresh air and do the test again. Second test he passed 0.0000 and much relieved he was on his way - don't think his mates even woke up! Decent of the copper, but like I said he had a lot of experience and probably done a thousand tests before and heard a thousand stories before and knew the lad had done the right thing and would be ok.

Fraid to say - drug testing roadside or on work sites is still in its infancy and got a lot of refining to do - not like BAC.

My beef ain't with the drug testing idea itself, well not in this thread anyway. I think little of stoner pulling ten cones and a couple of beers for breakfast and then driving their kids to school - most uncool - and any righteous rastaman would agree that is shameful abuse, not responsible use.

My POV, its to do with why the inadequacies of testing were, well, suppressed from the public, bias propaganda is being spread supporting the tests, when good people are being persecuted and made to hurt for a habit they are controlling responsibly that statistically is safer than speeding or fatigue driving and especially drink driving, let alone a reckless fool who's tripping their guts off on something undetectable, yet thinks its ok to drive. Its a scandal.

Lets keep it real. My privilege to have you kindly read my words, good people, Phaemon'sDog hoping he's making the clan proud.

Edited by Pat Uri
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^ are you sure that, after all that, they didnt just then book the P-plater for having more than one passenger?

I think now the tests have become a bit like mandatory sentencing. The law says that you can't have drugs in your system and there is no limit defined (like <0.05) so they are simply going to cash in whilst they can if they can "detect" it. "It's the law." Some fucking bureaucrats idea of "making a difference".

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"It's the law" is as final as death - you can stand in court with all the witnesses in the world and the scientific evidence you like it won't make a bit of difference - prosecution don't even have to have to have evidence. Everything Saddam Hussein, Sobalan Malosovich and George Bush Jnr. did was the "law" at the time and legal - outrageous, immoral, unfair, but the law of their land and the bureaucrats did it like the filthy whores they are. The law is a funny thing.

One example that comes to mind was the synthetic "cannabis" - all the while there was no law against it the miners were openly smoking it on site to pass away their $70/hr to do nothing but be there, and you couldn't believe who was getting into it. But the very second there was law against it, suddenly the hypocrites are dobbing their mates in.

No=one will change nothing until its MP MLA Glaukus, PM Tarenna, Senator Sir ThunderIdeal OBE, Chief Justice Change QC and High Commissioner Dog having a "joint session" - making laws like free gunja forever to anyone who catches an ice dealer. Well Pat Uris forever correcting me - its methamphetamine dealer - when the "meth" is diluted with sugar its "speed" and when the "meth" is diluted with DMSO2 its "ice". Authorities just thought people were getting bored with the "speed epidemic" and decided to freshen up the brand name with "ice epidemic". Oh and you can take 2 and a half Desoxyin tablets "meth" and still pass a drug test because the discrimination of the drug test for that is much higher than for yarndhi.

Which reminds me = saw Mr Uri for a drink and cigar last weekend, not much more, and he said my yarn above wasn't bad (Pass Conceded) quite a few techo errors, but gist was ok, but I hadn't said Zinc solutions also farc the on=the=spot Immunoassay colour test. Zinc acts just like the necessary gold heavy metal would and causes the dye to react resulting in a false negative - drug is there, but the ink-on-paper says there isn't...We all know what the mindless, jobsworth drones are going believe - not you and the evidence in front of them - but the "all knowing" piece of paper, because "it's the law"!. Keep easy, good people. P'sDog.

Edited by Pat Uri
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Well, at least I made a submission to the senate enquiry which was accepted so that's a step in the right direction.

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P'sDog says good on you Glaukus for pushing out a motion from the upper house onto the enquiry floor!

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Who's the manufacturer of the current NSW detection strips?

Pat, Phaemon's Dog, Donkey Wang and the rest of Clan Uri, I love your work.

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Hey ta Darklight - Pat Uri gets his from Instacheck they cheapest = they send them free to him and everybody hoping to get an industrial contract. He gives them to us so we don't get ripped off - not that we should seeing as we get all our gear off /O​BSCURED ON LEGAL ADVICE/

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