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3 Aussie ISIS members want to return home...

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Posted 19 May 2015 - 09:06 PM

http://www.theaustra...u-1227360196499

There has been considerable talk already about 3 aussies wanting to return home after fighting in the middle east, 2 were associated with ISIS, the 3rd with Jabhat al-Nusra.

Do you think they should be allowed to return ?

Thoughts/opinions ?

lol...well hasnt this gone on a tangent

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Sure as long as its a really fat one so we can gorge on cracle. Ive also heard if its a male, give him an erection before cooking cause theres more meat.

cool, i'll have the front bit man n and you can have the back bit :)

lets give the head to the ostriches, cooked brains are better than none.

i love you Wert :)

Mauve, why don't you have a say?

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What about all the kiddy fuckers who go to asia we should ban them from returning as well

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To lay claim that the aformentioned women only rose to power due to influence & wealth is hardly relevant, and not unusual in political circles. Plus, you are dismissing the fact that both countries exercise national elections as a democratic process. For better or worse, they were elected by the people. This negates the claims that Islam opresses women.

Exactly right that many political leaders are elected because of their marketing process rather than their policies, character, or how well they reflect the average citizen's political beliefs. The level of power and privilige these people have (Abbott, Bhutto, whomever) negates the democratic process. Abbott was elected after a ridiculously propagandistic media campaign (http://i2.wp.com/fc03.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2013/258/0/c/australian_election_2013_murdoch_and_news_corp_by_wordswithmeaning-d6mhguz.png?resize=599%2C513) which distorted his actions and views, and those of the opposing party, until he was, in the minds of many, the only option. That doesn't mean Australians in general or because of ideology want to dump waste on the Barrier Reef, hate immigrants, or are misogynistic as Abbott is/does. There are some for sure, but I reckon you'd be hard pressed to find a majority that are for environmental damage to save a corporation a bit of money, or send would-be immigrants to an island where they are more or less tortured. In the same way, Bhutto being elected by way of her power and influence doesn't speak in any direct way to the average Pakistani person's gender politics. Russia's longest ruling leader was Catherine the Great, doesn't mean 18th century Russians believed in equality between sexes.

That negative bit having been said, I think your example of Muslim community groups that help out the poor, homeless, underprivileged across religious borders speak volumes about the fact that Islam, like any religion, can be interpreted in vastly different ways, and blanket statements about Islam being sexist or whatever are so generalised as to not be very informative at all.

Let go of the hate.

Although whitewind and I differ on a lot of this kind of stuff, I have to say, I don't think his arguments are coming from a place of hatred here. Thinking through possibilities is different from being hateful.

Edited by hashslingr

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What are you so worried about?

Stop liking reclaim australia facebook pages and anti halal pages and I swear your worries will disappear. Let go of the hate. Trust me I know. I was raised by strict practising christian parents for the first 15 years of my life. Church 2 days a week, I was robbed of a normal childhood. and it took me the next 20 or so to let go of the homophobic, xenophobic racist bs that was indoctrinated into me. Bless my very understanding GF

Its a burden lifted off my shoulders. I feel free. You can too. Letting go of fear and hate is not putting your head in the sand.

edit- what do you mean by wrong side of most major religions? sorry for the rant

Stop being so rude. You are asking highly personal questions of a sensitive nature on what are supposed to be relatively anonymous forums. Suffice to say I know someone who is a refugee here in Sydney, a girl from Iran who was helped escape after suffering death threats from her family, kicked out and was on the streets for several years selling her body for a living because she couldn't get work elsewhere. There is another LBGT women trying to get out of the same country who is in exactly the same situation. They can often escape via other adjacent countries who are less intolerant but still very unsafe, and make their way here. It often takes months or years for women with no source of income other than sex.

Whatever you think, although it is not perfect here in relatively secular christian countries, it is a fuck site safer and more pleasant than a lot of Islamic countries, even the most "tolerant" ones.

EDITED to avoid implication

Edited by whitewind

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Although whitewind and I differ on a lot of this kind of stuff, I have to say, I don't think his arguments are coming from a place of hatred here. Thinking through possibilities is different from being hateful.

I am female actually.

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Maybe not, but it does sound like a bastion of national respect for females, and the outcome of there being 20 years of female presidancies renders all racist stereotyping of Islamic nations redundant on the topic of oppressing women. In this regard, Bangladesh are one of the most progressive.

How many Islamic countries proclaim 'In God We Trust' on their curency, and demand that court defendants swear on a holy book ? Paper currency is a device that every single American uses, and there is a proclamation of religious belief printed in the surface. In case you weren't paying attention, this happens in the goold old USA. Time to review your assumptions on secularism.

It's nothing more than the 'Reds under the bed' anti Soviet/Cuba propaganda. The only terrorist attack in Australia was a boming outside the Hilton Hotel - perpetrated by an Australian Ananda Marga devotee. And the only precedent for killing sprees on Australian soil that we can logically refer to is the Port Arthur massacre, the Strathfield Plaza shootings and the Hodle street massacre. All perpetrated by anglo Australians. WIth this history in mind, why aren't we calling for the outlawing of Eastern Spiritual practices borne out of Hindu traditions?

When did a call for religious equality and an end to hateful xenophobia become an example of ignorance? It's the Islamaphobic faction in Australia that are living a delusion.

I often see a massive reaction against Nazi groups from left-wing people, myself included. However, what I see is a whole bunch of similar type thinkers - bigots and racists and women haters - who hide behind the banner of "religion" which also supports these ideals. Blinkers off, I don't see a lot of difference apart from the labels.

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Please stop pointing the finger at Islam for problems that exist in society overall. In fact, most of what you are saying is prevalent in more cases outside of Muslim countries.

a girl from Iran who was helped escape after suffering death threats from her family, kicked out and was on the streets for several years selling her body for a living because she couldn't get work elsewhere.

The same story can be heard in any women's shelter in the western world. This is not specifically a Muslim issue.

There is another LBGT women trying to get out of the same country who is in exactly the same situation.

LGBT men and women are ostracised in most regional towns of Australia. Spend some time with these people and you might understand that it's impossible for many of them to return to their home towns. Regional Australian Culture = Not a Muslim issue

Whatever you think, although it is not perfect here in relatively secular christian countries, it is a fuck site safer and more pleasant than a lot of Islamic countries, even the most "tolerant" ones.

I wonder where people like yourself get these toxic ideas from. Take a look at figures of guns per capita around the world. The USA tops the list, and there are only three Muslim nations in the top 10. It stands to reason, that there are dangerous countries all over the world. I would be much safer in Brunei than I would in New York.

Corruption, sectarian violence and human rights abuse knows no religion, and to spread such malicious accusations against a majority for the actions of a minority is to completely do away with compassion and kindness towards our fellow humans.

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Sorry if I seemed rude.

I have a rage deep inside me that hates organised religion but a deeper hate again for those that persecute those that practice their religion without hurting anyone.

This includes fearmongering tactics that label all followers of a faith as having the same agendas to which you indicated early in this discussion.

Edit- Please dont take anything I say as a personal attack. After all this is a discussion on a forum without actually knowing the other persons real circumstances.

Edited by shroomau5

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cool, i'll have the front bit man n and you can have the back bit :)

lets give the head to the ostriches, cooked brains are better than none.

i love you Wert :)

Dont worry me mate... its all connected to the poo poo valve!

Edited by wert

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- censored content -

Edited by whitewind

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C'mon WW settle down

People have tried to find some common ground and even concede on some points for the sake of peace and you come out with that ^ irrelevant post about another issue.

It's an important issue but hardly relevant in the context of this discussion.

FFS go back and edit that post. all that shit is taken totally out of context.

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Whitewind, you claim to have no regard for organised religion, yet you copy/paste a 6,000 word page, of which the source is a right wing fundamentalist Christian website, with seeminly no personal input from yourself. This is not an 'FYI', it's a rehash of propaganda.

Reams of Quranic text indispersed with dogmatic opinion does not serve as statistical data, nor does it suffice in lieu of your own debate, from your own heart.

Nor does the literal reading of the Quran reflect the actions of modern Muslims - just as my earlier Biblical references on paedophilia and the opression of women do nothing in representing the majority of modern Christians. You cannot simply pick & choose text from a holy book and expect ths to bolster your flimsy arguements against adherents to Islam in 2015.

Instead of trawling the internet for Christian-based anti-Islam statements, I suggest you do some research on the number of unashamedly Islamaphobic sites out there, and try to find even a fraction of the total equivalent from pro-Islam Christianophobic sites. Having already done so, I'll save you some time and tell you now, they simply aren't out there to the extent of the former.

It's a sad state of affairs when commentary such as that on this thread is made on the basis of 'news' reports from manipulative media outlets. If you wish to believe the media lies, then I pity you, and cannot regard your ability to debate in an unbiased, rational manner.

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The Aisha age thing has been debunked anyway.

Child marriage is not supported in the Koran. . Child marriage is supported by sick fucks that will twist any scrawl in every faith to suit their desires.

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It's actually not taken out of context it was literary translation.

But perhaps not relevant to this discussion.

Anyway, I can't actually find what I wanted to post, which was a discussion by a relatively famous Islamic woman living now in the US who has studied and lived Islam and has come to the conclusion that some of the biggest problems with it is that it is apparently unable to separate church and state on any level, and her discussions are quite fascinating and very worrying. It explains why Islam hasn't changed much over the centuries.

She had to leave the Middle East, she has a death sentence on her head too. And she is angry with the left-wing of politics (such as it is in the US) because it refuses to challenge Islamic fundamentalism where it tends to go up against Christianity on a regular basis, for reasons that should be translated across religions.

I'll find it if I'm meant to.

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This topic has gone wildly off the mark and I think I'm over it anyway, there's a lot of people here who aren't listening to hard.

I'll just re-iterate, these men are still Australian citizens so they should abide by our rules. If they have broken them there are various punishments that can be in place. But they should not have their citizenship revoked.

It's still a shame that the refugees fleeing that type of behaviour aren't always given the same rights.

Remember to bring your refugees in by plane. For some reason that's still acceptable practice.

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It's actually not taken out of context it was literary translation.

The article was not a literal translation, it was heavily interjected with Christian commentary and bigoted opinion (by the author of which you copy/pasted the text)

I'll just re-iterate, these men are still Australian citizens so they should abide by our rules. If they have broken them there are various punishments that can be in place. But they should not have their citizenship revoked.

It's still a shame that the refugees fleeing that type of behaviour aren't always given the same rights.

Remember to bring your refugees in by plane. For some reason that's still acceptable practice.

What long-standing Australian laws have they broken? As far as I know they were not fighting against Australian troops, so we can rule treason out. Any crime they may or may not have committed were not on Australian soil so the government has no juristiction. If I happenned to be on the beach in Goa recently smoking a joint, is it the Australian Federal government's place to charge me? Has Tony Abbott's government has recently passed laws to chage people in this situation (the boys joining ISIS, not the ganja smoking overseas), and if so, why are we, as Australian citizens, allowing such atrocious legislation to pass ? The government has already proposed making citizens apply and thus be iinvestigated by federal authorities before being able to travel to specific middle eastern regions, but honestly, who are they to control where someone travels, and add them to a watch-list?

We speak of 'abiding by our rules', which is a bit rich, considering the extra-curricular activities that are regularly implied within this very forum.

Many of these alleged 'ISIS Recruits" are 100% Australian by birth. Faith in Islam does not (or rather should not) determine their birth-right citizenship status. Ultimately, a nationalised immigrant born in the UK is less of an Australian than someone of the young men the media is reporting on in recent months. If it were suggested that a nationalised immigrant should have their Australian citizenship revoked for being charged with a criminal offense, (any criminal offense), there would be an uproar.

As for the generalised slander of refugees, this country's economy was built on the sweat of asylum seekers, with post-WW2 Greeks & Italians, followed by Vietnamese refugees, and in the recent decade, Afghani's & Iraqi's who are escaping from the outcome of a tyrannical and baseless war that Australian taxpayers money supported. It is our humanitarian obligation to accept asylum seekers. I'm of no dount that the bigoted readers will wave their fingers at the computer screen and cry 'but how about all the ILLEGAL refugees'. Yes, how about them ? By definition of illegal in the context of illegal immigration laws in Australia, the bulk of the numbers are made up of English, Irish, Malaysian and Chinese Nationals, not people arriving by boat with genuine asylum status.

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This has just gone too far, I for one am shocked, is this bacon prohibition thing really happening Wert? My buddies didn't die face down in the muck so we could have people dictate when and where we can get our bacon damn it!! I don't care if I am walking through Lakemba( I have, had to pick up a pay check, strange but friendly place) if I get that Bacon itch I want to be able scratch it, where ever I may be! It's my right as an Australian and an American ( dual national) to have access to clean fresh drinking bacon where ever I wander on this fine melting pot of an Island-Continent.

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is this bacon prohibition thing really happening Wert?

If you have to ask...

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I'm sorry I just had to try and lighten the mood after reading all this. To answer the original question I think it would be unwise not to allow them back. I think they need to be charged with the offences they have committed.I think we need to use them as the valuable source of information they very possibly are.We need to study their actions, both past and in the future.We need to understand what makes these people tick and try and use this to advantage. The civilised, intelligent thing to do is try and create something positive out of this whole damn mess.

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now they is speaking arab in the header of my ebay page, ohhh no i musta looked up bombs.

post-13829-0-09727000-1433204029_thumb.j

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What long-standing Australian laws have they broken? As far as I know they were not fighting against Australian troops, so we can rule treason out. --

Any crime they may or may not have committed were not on Australian soil so the government has no juristiction.

If I happenned to be on the beach in Goa recently smoking a joint, is it the Australian Federal government's place to charge me? Has Tony Abbott's government has recently passed laws to chage people in this situation (the boys joining ISIS, not the ganja smoking overseas), and if so, why are we, as Australian citizens, allowing such atrocious legislation to pass ? The government has already proposed making citizens apply and thus be iinvestigated by federal authorities before being able to travel to specific middle eastern regions, but honestly, who are they to control where someone travels, and add them to a watch-list?

I believe fighting for a recognised* terrorist organisation is breaking Australian law. Maybe even an international law that Australia is signed up to (?) & jurisdiction I don't think applies here.

*I don't know how an organisation becomes recognised as a terrorist org.

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I believe fighting for a recognised* terrorist organisation is breaking Australian law. Maybe even an international law that Australia is signed up to (?) & jurisdiction I don't think applies here.

*I don't know how an organisation becomes recognised as a terrorist org.

This is the core issue. Society believe in maybes. Any charges laid against these boys will be suprious, and either no conviction will be made, or it will be quietly overtuned. In a few months there will have been a whole swathe of other stories for people to embrace and stay fearful of these big bad Muslims. The fact is, the whole ISIS notion is grossly overblown. The CIA estimate of members is less than the total number of people living in my local municipality. They have no organised military operation, no air capabilities, almost no support from the serious players in the MIddle Eastern geopolitic region. ISIS is merely the new fear campaign rolled out by our corrupt governments who know that the value of the words 'Al-Queda' are losing ground since the alleged assasination of Osama Bin Laden.

Looking at this from a marketing perspective, does anyone here know about split-testing? In web marketing, it's basically having several different designs/artworks/offers/whatever exposed to the same demographics, and the data is tabulated for popularity depending on what the end user action was. This whole ISIS term has been split tested last year between ISIS, ISIL, and simply IS. The marketing team who is rolling out the whole fabrication has settled on ISIS, because it trends well. At no time could they drop the reference to 'Islamic State' because it serves as a gentle but constant reminder that ISLAM IS THE NEW ENEMY !

Effectively, the gulliable majority of westerners that believe in all of this rubbish, and by extendion build up hateful levels of discrimination against their fellow citizens, are agreeing to the erosion of our civil liberties and right to privacy. WHat isn't so often discussed, is that in the years since 9/11, survelliance of citizens' phones, internet usage and movements are now the norm. The Abbott government is speaking about blocking access to certain websites (on the premise of anti-piracy). It's all one giant scam, and the world's powers are pulling the wool over our eyes.

It seems that, even on this community, which I wrongly assumed to be open minded and slightly more discerning about political; and media agendas, the bait is being swallowed hook, line & sinker.

Here's a story of a big bad Muslim that I'm waiting to see if it appears in the Daily Telegraph, and how long it keeps front page position before being booted off for another "Jihadi John" scare story

http://ilmfeed.com/homeless-man-racially-abuses-a-muslim-man-he-responds-by-finding-him-a-job-and-a-home/#arvlbdata

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i don't have anything invested in having a broad and fancy standpoint in these issues. you can probably tell from my first post in this thread. i think the american military is a terrifying and brutal enemy of mankind, i think america is the biggest threat ever posed to mankind.

nevertheless, what little i know about ISIS is that they are cruel and murderous warlords. not the only cruel and murderous warlords on the planet, and not the worst, and not the most worrisome. nevertheless if an australian joins them i consider that australian either a fool or a brute, and in any case in my colossal ignorance i consider them in opposition of my way of life so they don't deserve to return to a cozy prison cell funded by me and you, they deserve whatever fate awaits them in the sandy hell they sought out.

fuck it. it's not like my opinion matters.

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