3 Aussie ISIS members want to return home...

[DiscoStu]

it's worth noting that bush launched the afghan/iraq wars as doing gods work.

just cos it's not the church leading armies anymore doesn't mean wars aren't done in the christian god's name

[ThunderIdeal]

So if the doctrine has not changed but the Christians have changed are you saying that there is no hope of a muslim to change? Im confused to what you are saying mate.

I can still read all that hateful doctrine in the bible. Its still there unchanged.

that's what i'm saying, the doctrine doesn't change. you've fundamentally got a big problem when a large number of people let a roll of toiletpaper determine their values and actions.

discostu what a fiasco

[Sallubrious]

From Wikipedia

Xenophobia can also be exhibited in the form of an "uncritical exaltation of another culture" in which a culture is ascribed "an unreal, stereotyped and exotic quality"

Does that make me the pot or the kettle ?

After the shit that's been going down in my street in last few days this debate or shit slinging match is almost like a breath of fresh air. At least here the opinions have the potential for change.

[Gimli]

[wert]

can explain how australia is in the process of establishing sharia law? either on a local, state or federal government level?

Um, no bacon in hume city counsel victoria.

Get fucked its happening on a small scale. These rabbits will ban your bacon soon. Better watch out. Cause it aint santa comming to town.

[spooge]

will you eat human flesh with me if i can get some wert

edit: cooked of course

Edited May 28, 2015 by pimento

[Strontium Dawg]

Make your own bacon, it's really quite easy and much better than the slop you buy that's been pumped full of watery brine.

[DemonTea]

Some of the comments here are ridiculous. Those paranoid folks fearing Sharia law in Australia... have you even stopped to consider the size of the Muslim population in this country? It's less than 3% . I think you're fairly safe in that the 97% won't sway for Sharia law, and we can hang on to our current religious law, where homosexuals are not given equal rights by the government. A country led by a lunatic Jesuit who namechecks God, and called the Greens party 'the devil' in regards to opposing logging. This religious nation that executed it's last man as recently as 1967. A church in every suburb. A nation built from the sweat of petty criminals forcefully extracted from their home nation to be dumped on a faraway island. This great land, where only two hundreds years ago our forefathers perpetrated mass genocide against this land's rightful inhabitants.

Australia takes it's lead from the USA, a nation where every cash transaction reminds citizens that it is a nation of God (In God We Trust is printed on all the paper currency). This murderous nation that Australia supports in invading sovereign nations. 500,000 Iraqis killed, under the leadership of a President channeling the word of a Christian God.

George W Bush: 'I am driven with a mission from God'. God would tell me, 'George go and fight these terrorists in Afghanistan'. And I did. And then God would tell me 'George, go and end the tyranny in Iraq'. And I did."

Leviticus 26:33 (in reference to non-believers) - I will scatter you among the nations and will draw out my sword and pursue you. Your land will be laid waste, and your cities will lie in ruins

Why on earth should we fear Australia falling under Sharia Law when the present intertwining of politics and Christianity is so pervasive and sinister?

As for Islam oppressing women, how do you figure Benizar Bhutto got elected... twice.... as president in a country of what many Islamophobes consider to be a hotbed of terror cells? I'm sure the former Indonesian President Megawati Sukarnoputri would disagree with your opinions, being the commander-in-chief to the most populous Muslim country in the world. Perhaps you may wish to look towards Bangladesh, the third most populous Muslim country on the planet, which has been ruled by female Prime Minister for the last 25 years. Kosovo, Senegal, Turkey and other Islamic nations have had female leaders. The alleged oppression being specific to Islam is mostly in the minds of frightened, paranoid western xenophobes.

Timothy 2:12 - I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet.

It wasn't so long ago, your grandmothers, perhaps your mothers, were expected to play the role of dutiful housewife, bear children and obey the king of the house. Unable to vote, unable to enter pubs. Statistically, still do not earn equal to that of their male counterparts.

Titus 2:5 - to be discreet, chaste, homemakers, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be blasphemed.

At worst, Islamic nations are perhaps 50 years behind us, at best. ISIS will never catch up to the coalition's murder in the name of a Christian God, though.

Child molester seems to get thrown around a lot when fearful people speak of Islam. Rolf Harris wasn't a Muslim, despite the beard. The Australian sex offenders registry include over 14,000 people, for crimes including pedophilia and rape. The Catholic church goes to great lengths to cover up Clergy indiscretions with children. Would it be fair for another nation to make the broad generalization that all Aussies are rapists and rock-spiders? Of course not. So too, the few bad eggs that proclaim Islam as a vehicle for murderous action do not represent the broader Muslim community.

From the Catholic Encyclopedia: When forty years of age, Joseph married a woman called Melcha or Escha by some, Salome by others; they lived forty-nine years together and had six children, two daughters and four sons, the youngest of whom was James (the Less, “the Lord’s brother”). A year after his wife’s death, as the priests announced through Judea that they wished to find in the tribe of Juda a respectable man to espouse Mary, then twelve to fourteen years of age. Joseph, who was at the time ninety years old, went up to Jerusalem among the candidates; a miracle manifested the choice God had made of Joseph, and two years later the Annunciation took place.”

This puts Mary at 12 years old when she married Joseph the Carpenter. Female children betrothed into marriage before puberty was very common.

How about those headscarves? Several years ago, there was a rally in Lakemba by, and for, women, to reclaim the hijab, feeling that their cultural identity was being lost, and rallied to celebrate the wearing of the scarf as a respect for their belief. As a kid growing up in Catholic schooling in the '70;s, I remember my primary years being schooled by nuns who lived on premises. Nuns who wore scarves in alignment with their religious beliefs. Not many nuns get spat on or abused on public transport, but the same can't be said for Muslim women. My mother, and many women, in the 70's, used 'rollers' to curl their hair, and would cover themselves with a scarf. Heck, in the 50's, Audrey Hepburn & Marilyn Monroe wore headscarves for no apparent reason other than fashion.

Corinthians 11:6 - For if a woman does not cover her head, she might as well have her hair cut off; but if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved, then she should cover her head.

[nothinghead]

>As for Islam oppressing women, how do you figure Benizar Bhutto got elected... twice.... as president in a country of what many Islamophobes consider to be a hotbed of terror cells?

Because she was the eldest child of a wealthy, powerful family.

>I'm sure the former Indonesian President Megawati Sukarnoputri would disagree with your opinions, being the commander-in-chief to the most populous Muslim country in the world.

Again, hugely influential family.

I don’t think it really works to say Islam (and which Islam? we’re already talking about numerous differing traditions) is for equality of women based on case examples of a few extremely privileged women. To be convincing you’d have to provide evidence about norms rather than exceptions.

That said, I don’t think Christianity-based societies treat women equally either, and wouldn’t take Gillard as PM as a sign that Australia treats sexes as equals. I also don’t reckon comparing Christianity to Islam is much use in a debate like this, since most of the people you’re communicating with aren’t Christians and probably wouldn’t defend the faith as a foundation for social practice/law/etc.

[Sallubrious]

Seeing you suggested I look into Bangladesh DT (I already have but that really had nothing to do with this discussion)

Of all the examples of islamic nations to choose Bangladesh is possibly the worst example I could think of to prove how moderate they are.

Try googling ethnic cleansing in Bangladesh.

That country has been the site of one of the biggest and most brutal atrocities in modern history.

No need to state who committed the atrocities.

Edited May 29, 2015 by Sally

[Strontium Dawg]

I watched a doco on acid attacks in Bangladesh a few years ago, and it made me cry. The number of people including tiny innocent children who are horribly maimed by sulphuric acid attacks is truly shocking. Nothing to do with religion, just brought up this memory...

[spooge]

so, if Australia's Muslim population is 3% then that would mean there are more females living in oppression and in abusive situations in this county who are of other religions than the entire Muslim population of this country combined..........

perspective.

[shroomau5]

That said, I don’t think Christianity-based societies treat women equally either, and wouldn’t take Gillard as PM as a sign that Australia treats sexes as equals. I also don’t reckon comparing Christianity to Islam is much use in a debate like this, since most of the people you’re communicating with aren’t Christians and probably wouldn’t defend the faith as a foundation for social practice/law/etc.

No but it does put some perspective on atrocities committed in the name of both religions. There is no reason to fear one over the other. . I hate religion but I hate biased scaremongering even more.

Kinda like you have more chance of getting your head kicked in and dying by a drunk bogan at a taxi rank on a niteclub strip than by a terrorist. Lets get some perspective before we start getting scared at the wrong things

Edited May 29, 2015 by shroomau5

[shroomau5]

Seeing you suggested I look into Bangladesh DT (I already have but that really had nothing to do with this discussion)

Of all the examples of islamic nations to choose Bangladesh is possibly the worst example I could think of to prove how moderate they are.

Try googling ethnic cleansing in Bangladesh.

That country has been the site of one of the biggest and most brutal atrocities in modern history.

No need to state who committed the atrocities.

Try googling ethnic cleansing in west Africa by Christian militia

Still happening

Do they act for all Christians?

[DemonTea]

>As for Islam oppressing women, how do you figure Benizar Bhutto got elected... twice.... as president in a country of what many Islamophobes consider to be a hotbed of terror cells?

Because she was the eldest child of a wealthy, powerful family.

>I'm sure the former Indonesian President Megawati Sukarnoputri would disagree with your opinions, being the commander-in-chief to the most populous Muslim country in the world.

Again, hugely influential family.

This is no different to most western politicians that rise to power. Tony Abbott was schooled at a Jesuit College known for being a 'rich boys club' where nepotism and connections to other wealthy families is how former students rise through the ranks of both politics and executive corporate positions. The immediate evidence of this is that Joe Hockey is also part of the same boys club. George W Bush comes from wealth, and his right-hand man Dick Cheney is incredibly wealthy.

To lay claim that the aformentioned women only rose to power due to influence & wealth is hardly relevant, and not unusual in political circles. Plus, you are dismissing the fact that both countries exercise national elections as a democratic process. For better or worse, they were elected by the people. This negates the claims that Islam opresses women.

Seeing you suggested I look into Bangladesh DT (I already have but that really had nothing to do with this discussion)

Of all the examples of islamic nations to choose Bangladesh is possibly the worst example I could think of to prove how moderate they are.

The context in which I mention Bangladesh is clearly within the discussion of female empowerment in a Muslim nation. I don't know if ANY other nation can claim to have decades of female leadership.

India's Taj Mahal is a shrine built in honour of Shah Jahan's favourite wife at a cost of over $700 million dollars (converted to present monetary value). Jahan, an Orthodox Muslim, obviously thought highly of the woman.

There are countless influential and powerful Muslim women that head organisations today. For westerners to project their own hatred towards Islam by believing they are the proxy voice for Islamic females is incredibly patronising to these women.

In 2015, there are a group of Muslim men affectionately known as 'The White Coats' (those on Facebook, check out 'Homeless Run') who hit the streets of Sydney every Friday night with food, toiletries & warm clothing for the city's homeless. They aren't preaching Islam in an attempt to convert people, but act out their duty-bound obligation to help the needy in accordance with Quranic teachings. They also operate a program called 'Sisters in Need', offering food & furniture to single mums. Not Muslim single mums... these guys don't discriminate ! The vast majority of this stuff is donated by the Muslim community, with no expectation of something in return. Hardly surprising that the media don't tend to report this very often, preferring instead to fill our minds with stories of 'Jihadi John travels to Syria', 'Muslims behead westerners' and 'ISIS will have nuclear arms within months'.

To all of the haters convinced that Islam is a big bad religion of murders, ask yourselves this - have YOU spent your weekends hauling food around the city to help those less fortunate?

Islam is simply the new enemy of the West - mostly exaggeration and sometimes fabrication, that the politicians and media need in order to distract us, and move our attention away from the state, religious & corporate corruption that occurs in our society. It's a classic diversion practice adopted from Roman times. In the 70's and '80's it was the big bad Communists threatening 'our way of life'. At one point it was irrational fear of the 'Yellow Peril', defining Asian people as danngerous primates with supernatural evil powers. For Americans, Castro's Cuba was (perceived to be) a major threat to society. Saddam's weapons of mass destruction, which Hans Blix never, ever found, served at fuel for the fire under the bubbling cauldron of group-think hatred delivered to the masses via the likes of Rupert and his contemporaries. And today, of course, it's big bad Islam scaring people into submission under the careful control of our leaders. In 10 years it will have blown over, and we will have a new enemy that's been conveniently fabricated.

Consider this, if you dare. ISIS is mostly a fabricated story, and blown out of proportion. Please meditate on this suggestion for a few moments. Do you trust the media sources you're getting your ISIS information from?

[Sallubrious]

Any atrocity in the name of a chosen religious figure is still an atrocity. I agree it's totally reprehensible.

The displacement in Bangladesh is still occurring too and it's becoming an international debacle, those people are trapped in a version of hell that most of us could never imagine. Way too many human casualties for anyone to accept. The numbers you've quoted (in west Africa) seem insignificant compared to what's happened/happening in Bangadesh. Balance it out with what's happened in other parts of Africa and it becomes even less significant.

DT brought up that point in a reference that seemed directly aimed at me and I believe it was ill informed so I replied. Bangladesh has a history of state sponsored violence that has well documented/proven financial links to Saudi Arabia - diverting the attention to an unrelated matter involving Christians on another continent is intriguing to say the least.

Maybe my refusal to give you my address via the PM you sent offering free shit the other day offended you ?

I don't agree with religious persecution of any sort and I have no affiliation with any religious group.

Edited May 29, 2015 by Sally

[DemonTea]

so, if Australia's Muslim population is 3% then that would mean there are more females living in oppression and in abusive situations in this county who are of other religions than the entire Muslim population of this country combined..........

perspective.

Excellent perspective. Thre are roughly 500,000 Muslims in Australia, and I don't believe they are responsible for the following figures on female oppression in Australia. It seems that 'our way of life' is geared very much towards abusing women, not to mention denying standards of equality for same-sex relationships.

Australian women affected by violence in their life Affected by violence over 15 57% 5.1 million Been physically assaulted 48% 4.3 million Been sexually assaulted 34% 3 million Experienced violence by a current or previous partner 16% 1.4 million Experienced sexual harassment in their workplace 20% 1.5 million Experienced inappropriate comments about their body or sex life 33% 3 million Experienced unwanted sexual touching 25% 2.2 million

source: Australian Institute of Criminology (2004), Australian Human Rights Commission (2008)

[DemonTea]

Misread

Edited May 30, 2015 by DemonTea

[shroomau5]

Sally wrote - Maybe my refusal to give you my address via the PM you sent offering free shit the other day offended you ?

Don't flatter yourself darlin. I'm in this thread to troll xenophobes.

Edited May 30, 2015 by shroomau5

[Sallubrious]

Cubism presented an argument that put me in my place, and after reading and contemplating his words I made an effort to apologise (twice) for extreme staements I'd presented early on in the thread. I'm still sorry Cubism - there was no excuse for some of the things I wrote.

Coming back days later and seeing people laying the boot in after I'd conceded & apologised it's hard to take, especially when most of what they've stated is completely out of context and irellevant and/or ill informed.

[spooge]

.

Edited May 29, 2015 by pimento

[whitewind]

So, the current Bangladeshi government isn't properly recognised by many of it's own political parties or by international observers. And it's the parliament that elects the president.

So, a fair bit of corruption there, despite an attempt to be democratic and even seats put aside for female candidates, it doesn't sound like a bastion of secular democracy to me.

I mean, it does feel that secularism and democracy has a good handhold in majority christian countries, whereas this is not to be said for most Islamic states.

We are talking about today's state of affairs, yes, christianity has done some horrors in the past, but it seems to be calmish right now. It worries me that the fundies will be stirred up a bit by the fundies in other religions.

Seriously, it seems you have to be constantly alert for these things. Not just yawn and say not to worry.

Well, I'm on the wrong side of most major religions so yes, I do worry. Just because you have your head in the sand and probably wouldn't fare too badly in a fascist patriarchal society doesn't mean that others would. Think about other people a bit please before you snarkily point out that just because you don't believe it that it means it can't or won't happen here.

[DemonTea]

seats put aside for female candidates, it doesn't sound like a bastion of secular democracy to me.

Maybe not, but it does sound like a bastion of national respect for females, and the outcome of there being 20 years of female presidancies renders all racist stereotyping of Islamic nations redundant on the topic of oppressing women. In this regard, Bangladesh are one of the most progressive.

 

I mean, it does feel that secularism and democracy has a good handhold in majority christian countries, whereas this is not to be said for most Islamic states.

How many Islamic countries proclaim 'In God We Trust' on their curency, and demand that court defendants swear on a holy book ? Paper currency is a device that every single American uses, and there is a proclamation of religious belief printed in the surface. In case you weren't paying attention, this happens in the goold old USA. Time to review your assumptions on secularism.

 

Seriously, it seems you have to be constantly alert for these things.

It's nothing more than the 'Reds under the bed' anti Soviet/Cuba propaganda. The only terrorist attack in Australia was a boming outside the Hilton Hotel - perpetrated by an Australian Ananda Marga devotee. And the only precedent for killing sprees on Australian soil that we can logically refer to is the Port Arthur massacre, the Strathfield Plaza shootings and the Hodle street massacre. All perpetrated by anglo Australians. WIth this history in mind, why aren't we calling for the outlawing of Eastern Spiritual practices borne out of Hindu traditions?

 

Just because you have your head in the sand and probably wouldn't fare too badly in a fascist patriarchal society doesn't mean that others would. Think about other people a bit please before you snarkily point out that just because you don't believe it that it means it can't or won't happen here.

When did a call for religious equality and an end to hateful xenophobia become an example of ignorance? It's the Islamaphobic faction in Australia that are living a delusion.

[shroomau5]

So, the current Bangladeshi government isn't properly recognised by many of it's own political parties or by international observers. And it's the parliament that elects the president.

So, a fair bit of corruption there, despite an attempt to be democratic and even seats put aside for female candidates, it doesn't sound like a bastion of secular democracy to me.

I mean, it does feel that secularism and democracy has a good handhold in majority christian countries, whereas this is not to be said for most Islamic states.

We are talking about today's state of affairs, yes, christianity has done some horrors in the past, but it seems to be calmish right now. It worries me that the fundies will be stirred up a bit by the fundies in other religions.

Seriously, it seems you have to be constantly alert for these things. Not just yawn and say not to worry.

Well, I'm on the wrong side of most major religions so yes, I do worry. Just because you have your head in the sand and probably wouldn't fare too badly in a fascist patriarchal society doesn't mean that others would. Think about other people a bit please before you snarkily point out that just because you don't believe it that it means it can't or won't happen here.

What are you so worried about?

Stop liking reclaim australia facebook pages and anti halal pages and I swear your worries will disappear. Let go of the hate. Trust me I know. I was raised by strict practising christian parents for the first 15 years of my life. Church 2 days a week, I was robbed of a normal childhood. and it took me the next 20 or so to let go of the homophobic, xenophobic racist bs that was indoctrinated into me. Bless my very understanding GF

Its a burden lifted off my shoulders. I feel free. You can too. Letting go of fear and hate is not putting your head in the sand.

edit- what do you mean by wrong side of most major religions? sorry for the rant

Edited May 30, 2015 by shroomau5

[wert]

will you eat human flesh with me if i can get some wert

edit: cooked of course

Sure as long as its a really fat one so we can gorge on cracle. Ive also heard if its a male, give him an erection before cooking cause theres more meat.