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Trichocereus peruvianus crest/monster discussion

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I have often doubted the ID of tricho crests presented as peruvianus when they scream pachanoi..

so here I am, I have a specimen or two (got another grafted) of what circulates in oz market thanks to an awesome oz mate that sent it to me, and to be honest, okey it seems to be more spiny than what I am used to, but why is it a peruvianus?

anyways, I should see how it grows with our sun here, its still small I know..

Please throw in your own pervuvianus crests !

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Here's a pic of a crest I have labeled as a Peru.

This is what it looked like two months ago...

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Now it looks like it's starting to revert a bit...

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I tend to agree with the Cuzco theory.

(Close up of the areoles with prominent swollen base on the central spines)...

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Edited by Psyentist
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Here's one I have labeled as a pach...

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Spines and areoles are very distinct from the Peru/Cuzco....

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Wow thanks, very useful, yeah its the hammiltons crest.

Micoz, what about the one at the background? :)

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P1130211.jpg P1130213.jpg

I have often doubted the ID of tricho crests presented as peruvianus when they scream pachanoi..

so here I am, I have a specimen or two (got another grafted) of what circulates in oz market thanks to an awesome oz mate that sent it to me, and to be honest, okey it seems to be more spiny than what I am used to, but why is it a peruvianus?

anyways, I should see how it grows with our sun here, its still small I know..

Please throw in your own pervuvianus crests !

hey mutuant, your crest has been proven to be neither pachanoi nor peruvianus, but what I'd like to know is what made you think your plant was screaming pachanoi in the first place??

a second question is how do you personally ascertain whether a crest is pach, peru or whatever?

you commented on a post I made of what I was calling a bridge crest, stating you felt it was a pachanoi crest.

please define (discuss) for me your 'expert opinion' on what constitutes a peruvianus crest vs a pachanoi crest vs a bridgesii crest vs any other columnar tricho crest for that matter :)

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hey zelly whats with the attitude?

your crest has been proven to be neither pachanoi nor peruvianus

yeah? how and when? Funny you state this, but I have them for less than a month and this "hammiltons" strain seems to be presented a lot like a 'peruvianus crest' here.. It's just now that I learnt that it seems to grow into a cuzco and saw more mature pics. Maybe others get to know this now.

what made you think your plant was screaming pachanoi in the first place??

having grown a shitload of pachanoi crest, including one strain that was mis-labeled for years for peruvianus just because some expert named it so, had me thinking that this is very similar strain, excepting the slightly longer spines. I have also noted bigger spines on some bigger specimens from oz, but no blueing so for my stardards this also excludes peruvianus. But these I recently got are pretty smaller, so I might have been too hasty to speak.

a second question is how do you personally ascertain whether a crest is pach, peru or whatever?

same question with above, but there you go: I make a new thread in SAB with a bold statement doubting stuff people have said and , what do you know, couple folks will chime in to correct me if I am wrong.. Works faster than you might think :P take this thread for example.

But hey, you know deep down there are no known peruvianus crests, right? and the way to tell is let it grow... grow it out for years...

you commented on a post I made of what I was calling a bridge crest, stating you felt it was a pachanoi crest.

me and a couple others, discuss this where it belongs (discussing bridgesii monsters) , why bring it up here... unless you feel that obvious pachanoi crest is a peruvianus...

please define (discuss) for me your 'expert opinion' on what constitutes a peruvianus crest vs a pachanoi crest vs a bridgesii crest vs any other columnar tricho crest for that matter

same question for 3rd time, but what the heck!

From what I can see there are no peruvianus monsters and crests... You are right in that several trichocereus forms of crestation might probably start similar or identical from seed.. and still remain very similar for years... I think I can tell echinopsis from tricho though...

I hope when I reach your age I will be more expert and wise regarding the form of trichocereus crests... :)

Edited by mutant
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3 Year old seed grown T.peruvianus 'icaros'. 140mm pot.

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^^^^

okey this is something that looks like a peruvianus crest

I take back what I siad that there are no peruvianus crest: Swiper owns the only one kittens :P

PS: I dont say this often but maybe you should consider grafting a couple parts of this next season, which means IMO get it to maturity faster ... then propagate a lot ...

Edited by mutant

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I take back what I siad that there are no peruvianus crest: Swiper owns the only one

From what I can see there are no peruvianus monsters and crests..

credible much mutant?

The T. peruvianus cristata (TPC) is a new addition to the hybrid pool - large freakish peruvianus cristata - even the flower was mutant - I crossed the single fruit with Juules, SS02, and (SS02 x pachanoi)

http://www.shaman-australis.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=33453&p=387656

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Nitrogens T. peruvianus cristata (TPC) mother plant as she stands today

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Posted Yesterday, 08:30 PM

hey zelly whats with the attitude?

 

No attitude mutant as you are certainly entitled to your credibility straining opinions.

I was hoping for a little bit of substance from you on this thread you opened for discussion, on characteristics of what constitutes a 'peruvianus crest' in your 'expert' opinion.

So far all I've gleaned from your posts in this thread is 'bluing' & 'spines' & hostility towards anyone who questions your credibility.

Rather than attack my post, why dont you post up pics of your "shitloads of pachanoi crests" and discuss with us your opinions on what makes them pachanoi & not peruvianus?

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This might be out of topic but I've always wondered why this TPM is a peruvianus and not a pachanoi?

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Agreed. TPC seems very tricky to ID for certain.

I view any opinion on it as potentially valid be it pachanoi or peruvianus.

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Those are pretty neat!

I am not familiar with crests,

could someone please flip the switch for the White Light of the Void and enlighten me as to what they are,

how they are obtained, and what the purpose/advantage of these?

Thanks

Shonman

Edited by shonman

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imho a HUGE problem in online cacti identification is the problem presented by pictures...they just simply cannot tell the whole story.

maybe if photos were posted of every detail, every nuance, then perhaps more certainty could be dialed in.

What constitutes a peruvianus vs a pachanoi?

Would pics of the mature spines at the base be conclusive or inconclusive?

philo, since you are wondering why its a peruvianus & not pachanoi, share with us your reasoning what makes a plant peruvianus vs what makes a plant pachanoi......

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Here's one I have labeled as a pach...

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Spines and areoles are very distinct from the Peru/Cuzco....

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I also have these 2 varieties of crest and assumed the short spined is a pach and the long spined, or wild pach spined was a peru too.

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One of my lil crests. I call him "Last of the Mohicans" Still small about 1.5 inches . I also have a more brocolli style crest that goes from one side to the other but its knobby as heck. I'll try to take some good high res pics tomorrow. This is a bonafied pure pachanoi.

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imho a HUGE problem in online cacti identification is the problem presented by pictures...they just simply cannot tell the whole story.

maybe if photos were posted of every detail, every nuance, then perhaps more certainty could be dialed in.

What constitutes a peruvianus vs a pachanoi?

Would pics of the mature spines at the base be conclusive or inconclusive?

philo, since you are wondering why its a peruvianus & not pachanoi, share with us your reasoning what makes a plant peruvianus vs what makes a plant pachanoi......

From what I gathered so far, there are no clear cut differences between both species flowers. Keep in mind I haven't seen a flower fron neither species but this is what I read until now. Based on this I personally concluded that both peruvianus and pachanoi are the same species with different phenotype expression in the length of spines, glauciness and the structure of the column itself.

Just as the natives used to call a long spined San Pedro, a male San Pedro........we call it peruvianus. And the call a short spined San Pedro, a female San Pedro ...... we call it pachanoi.

I'm still learning and that's why I asked about why people label TPM as peruvianus and not pachanoi, so maybe I learn a new thing on identifying the attributes that puts it in this category and not the other.

PS Im reading the "How to recognize a peruvianus" thread to refresh my info and I found this

They all have short flower tubes. Reliably more stubby than any pachanoi

Was this the trait that classified TPM as a peruvianus and not a pachanoi? Or are there more traits I'm not aware of?

Edited by Philocacti

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i got 2 peru crests from Micoz and sent one to Mutant

if the op is a pic of the one i sent, then this is the other one.

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Grafted peru, i got this from Watertrade, cut most of it off last year and grafted the bits, one of the grafts i also sent to Mutant.

The graft has recovered well and ready for more chopping in the spring.

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nice Peru fan, also from Watertrade, it was a lot smaller and grafted to a trich when i got it.

its a thick and juicy fukker

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i presume they are all peru as thats the tags they came with

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i got 2 peru crests from Micoz and sent one to Mutant

if the op is a pic of the one i sent, then this is the other one.

attachicon.gifIMG_5253.jpg attachicon.gifIMG_5254.jpg

Grafted peru, i got this from Watertrade, cut most of it off last year and grafted the bits, one of the grafts i also sent to Mutant.

The graft has recovered well and ready for more chopping in the spring.

attachicon.gifIMG_5271.jpg attachicon.gifIMG_5275.jpg attachicon.gifIMG_5276.jpg

nice Peru fan, also from Watertrade, it was a lot smaller and grafted to a trich when i got it.

its a thick and juicy fukker

attachicon.gifIMG_5259.jpg attachicon.gifIMG_5260.jpg

i presume they are all peru as thats the tags they came with

And where did i get them from? I got them from PD (so did incognito i think). And PD got them from ebay. The eBay seller. ..... ...... may have been Hamiltons...

Edit. No. Wait! I stuffed it up. The second crest above, the single fan one. Is from PD , as above.

The other one ( curly & clumpy) was grown from seeds sent to me from strangebrew.

Edited by watertrade
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My Hamilton's crest I got maybe 4 years ago? Was just a wee little cutting.post-3565-0-02944400-1429713001_thumb.jppost-3565-0-41015000-1429713036_thumb.jp

I've got another one I grafted to a fat Pedro but I actually think this ones growing quicker on its own roots.

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Pimento yeah the 1st pic was the rooted one you sent me..

Well so it seems not all Hammiltons crests revert, and am I seeing some mild glaucousness on that last one by Shroomu? So they might not all be cuzcoensis or the same strain anyway...

Also it seems that I might have two different strains, but then again one is grafted, so I dont know how fairl is their comparison..

Zelly, man you are taking this the wrong way.. you started by telling me my plant was proven bla bla bla.. when its the first time anything is told about this particular specimen in here (you never replied about this) and mentioned sarcastically my "expert definition" .... how come I have the attitude ? :lol:

My initial stand, was doubting peruvianus crests exist.. it might not be so obvious in the first post, but I was doubtful alright... Like that TPM (of nitrogen) , I cant see and never really saw how its peruvianus except if you think pachanoi = peruvianus ... And I have a regular clone of it too... but soon enough in this very thread, some pics (not yours) are begining to change my mind... is that a crime?

I take pride on the fact I can change my opinion and on the fact my opinions are not fixed but kind of the "latest version" . So I have changed opinion and I may change opinion again in the future. I didn't understand your post was about my credibility. Some of the crests shown here might show more of the peruvian phenotype as I and some people mean it.. or if you like you can undestand "the blue phenotype with large golden to pale spines" when I say peruvianus..

Well I am sorry to inform you that I choose to distinguish peruvianus from pachanoi, it seems you consider them one? But in any case, why fight about it? you might be right, you have more years in the thing... seen more clones ... If you really asking, I tend to believe the macro/peruv cluster grows slower, pups less, blues a lot and have different, bigger , different spines, with macro having more of them and in great colour variety. Areoles are also bigger in peruvs

and there are enough difference to tell between macro and plain peruv that we can easily accept two man vars of it with similar speed of growth..

But hey we've talked and I ve talked about these in several threads

But this was about crests not pachanoi VS peruvianus.. The problem is that crests might take more time to mature....

And there's another thing... 'how to tell its a peruvuanus crest' .. well you expect to see traits of the regular peruv on it, and boy, is the glaucousness one of them!

On the other hand we have the example of some monsters which have little to do with the 'regulars' like Eulychnia castanea, Mammi bosacana fred etc

PS: you challenge me to post my pach crests and tell you why they're pachanoi... come on man, I have posted so many pics of them. Reason for I believe they are pachanoi is they are green and with pachanoi spines.. One older one with lots columnar growth seems to even be making these late long spines (single per pareole) that I have seen in old pachanoi KK339 areoles near the base ..

but I dont insist at all in the species status, I can happily consider them vars of a main species... my biggest concern in the speed of growth difference...

PS2: it can be told that for some species new growth of an established plant might be more telling for IDing purposes than old wornout body.. but the bottom line is lots of stuff should be taken into account, and mostly: growing out the plant and taking notes and pics

ps3: so far swiper takes the cake...

true blue crest: its true!

Edited by mutant
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oops wrong thread

Edited by Philocacti

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A few years back now someone from hamiltons was selling crests on ebay, i remember because i got mine on a second chance offer, paid by bank deosit, and the account name was something Hamilton, possibly Kim, but dont hold me to that.

There was discusion on here at the time the same way there is now about ebay adds. they sent second chance offers to more people than just me.

I call it peruvianus and i will continue to call it peruvianus because thats what it came labelled as and everyone knows it as peruvianus, to now call it cuzco would create more confusion i think.

I have no idea if there is more than one 'Hamiltons' crest, I know nothing of the people or their nursery.

mutant...the one in the background is the same hamiltons crest although there is a few pach crests in there somewhere. or at least thats what it came labelled as - T. pachanoi monstrose X T. pachanoi from Huancabamba in Peru

Edited by micoz

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