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☽Ţ ҉ĥϋηϠ₡яღ☯ॐ€ðяئॐ♡Pϟiℓℴϟℴ

Growing Virola !! - or trying to find the way through the jokers and thieves .. : Mission Lightening Tree, The hunt for "Red" Otoba

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whats the mystique about Virolas?


why are they so elusive?


is it that people are afraid to say they don't know?

have they been cut down so much they became rare in the amazon or something?

whats the danger where they grow? jaguars? death by a krillion skeeter bites? killer bees?


skin cream companys? being sent compsoneura by mistake?


what's the score on going out there and bringing some seeds back?

are there some sort of rules about them I should be aware of?

the 4 sebifera seeds I have on their way may or may not.. be too old...

I did ask the seller but have no reply yet

and they already sent them

I'll post some pics and any progress after they arrive, at least pics of the nuts

but fingers crossed and wish hard....

so I have a bag of sphag hydrated with a little rain, then flattened to expel all the air, then I added liquid carbon to slay any thing that might have legs or require oxygen and it's sat waiting to be divided up into little bags for each seed that come's my way :)

If there's anything else useful to know for growing/germinating them , I would be eternally grateful for any advice...

also another seller I found called tropilab has been bouncing back my requests for a while with: "not available at the moment",

"early next year", "too early still; wait 2 months" lol, and "not ready yet" ,... still pending my last attempt now... which is rather tiresome

I flooded as much of the Amazon as I could with requests much like i did the rest of the world about Trichocereus validus..

but friends in Peruu said everyone sells it but it's never really it,

and one's in Chile say they don't know the tree

one's in Venezuela say too dangerous where they grow

same story from Brazil,

no reply on it from Nicaragua...

only other person I spoke to in S.A about it was in Colombia and they didn't know the tree, only tree datura ...

Would be nice to grow a bonsai Virola species with mini epiphytes and aya branching all over it with psychotrias as mid ground plants and some small orchids

some Amazon milk frogs and more moss than you ever saw in a 45x45x90 high viv


with lots of fog and a lightening/rain system


so many species to learn


Edited by ☽Ţ ҉ĥϋηϠ₡яღ☯ॐ€ðяئॐ♡Pϟiℓℴϟℴ
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so far I managed to find this:

Virola surinamensis

General characteristics :
Tree 20-35 m tall. the species
grows at low and middle elevations , in
moist or wet forests from
Costa Rica to Peru and Brazil. in Panama
is common in the Caribbean slope in
where flowering and fruiting from March to
November. The seeds are dispersed
by large birds and various mammals .
The trees of this species maintain their
foliage permanently.

The fruits (1 seed for each) are
abundant and harvested with rods and
climbing the tree . Then left open to the sun
to later manually separate the pulp
covering the seeds .

No treatment is obtained pregerminative
on average 45 % germination , which
occurs between 20 and 55 days after
planting. Seeds stored
at 20 ° C remain viable for up to 10
months .

Growth in the nursery :
Very fast . Seedlings can
reach 25-30 cm in height at a time
3 meses.Requieren shade during
its initial development .

Virola sebifera

General characteristics :
Tree 10-25 m tall. the species
grows at low and middle elevations ,
in damp or wet forests ,
from Honduras to Bolivia and Brazil. in
Panama is common in forests throughout the
country where flowers and fruits from March
September. The seeds are dispersed
by large mammals and birds,
mainly monkeys , toucans and turkeys .
The trees of this species maintain their
foliage permanently.

The fruits (1 seed each)
are abundant but not mature
simultaneously. are collected
directly from the tree with sticks
and left open to the sun to separate
manually covering pulp

Without pregerminative treatment
obtained on average 12%
germination, which occurs between
55 and 132 days after sowing.
Seeds stored at 20 ° C
lose viability in less than 1 month .
Growth in the nursery :
Slow. Seedlings can achieve
25-30 cm high in a time of 8
months . requires shade during initial development

Edited by ☽Ţ ҉ĥϋηϠ₡яღ☯ॐ€ðяئॐ♡Pϟiℓℴϟℴ

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Great write up but what source is the seed from (pm perhaps)

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-later edit- they sell dead seeds and have done for the last 3 or 4 years that i've known about after trying them

and other friends trying them or being ripped off by them too ..

wouldn't bother trying them unless you want some ornamental dead ones.

Edited by ☽Ţ ҉ĥϋηϠ₡яღ☯ॐ€ðяئॐ♡Pϟiℓℴϟℴ

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It looks like they can take a long time to germinate.

They belong to the nutmeg family and so are essentially nutmegs.

though more interesting.

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yes Myristicaceae

virola seeds are smaller than nutmeg seeds still though and indeed more interesting :)

nice to know both were used in chocolate recipes, I think the Virola guatemalensis was named Cacao Virolador - or "chocolate flying device"

...I've been having to do most of my research in spanish/portuguese via translation software for this family , luckily I also managed to find an author on the subject to ask a few questions to ,

Harri Lorenzi, book in the post ... :) -edit- in pic below

there is a nice book called .. in fact , there are a few nice books , these are 4 of the ones i use


Also science institutes (research labs - mainly panama but still quite a few more) have had them germinate immediately (within 5 days at 30C)

.. sadly i found out that too many Virola trees, especially the female ones; amount to just ply wood

: /

here's a video i found showing how they smuggle the trees out

at least lamp oil and hair cream was sustainable...

Edited by ☽Ţ ҉ĥϋηϠ₡яღ☯ॐ€ðяئॐ♡Pϟiℓℴϟℴ

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Scientists say Virola tree suffers "announced extinction" News - Environment Mon, 26 August 2013 09:53

1377391575277.jpgThe Virola - Virola surinamensis - timber species of high market value is practically absent in lowland areas in Pará in priority Species Conservation Program Genetic Resources Economic Value of Brazil, the species is present in the lists of plant species threatened with extinction at federal and state levels. Data presented by biologist Leandro V. Ferreira attest that since the 1980s, timber production in lowland forests accounted for 75% of the total wood sold on Amazon - Virola and represented 50% of the total volume of timber.

According to a study authored by biologist at the Goeldi Museum in Belem, Leandro V. Ferreira, illegal extraction of wood Virola of the floodplain forests of the Amazon reduced to worrying levels stocks of the species. The finding is confirmed in research conducted in Caxiuanã National Forest, Pará, coordinated by biologist on a study carried out with resources from the Long Term Ecological Research (LTER-Caxiuanã), funded by the Federal Government.

The chronicle of an announced extinction: Illegal logging of Virola in floodplain forests in the Amazon estuary is the title of a study that compares the degree of conservation of this species in the floodplains of the estuary, from three specific areas: areas already explored in exploration and unexplored areas. The latter, located in the floodplain forests of the Ferreira Penna Scientific Station (FPSS), basic research at the Goeldi Museum, located within the Caxiuanã National Forest, located in the municipalities of Melgaço and Brief in Marajo.

1377391575442.jpgIn the Amazon region, especially in the delta region, floodplain forests have great socioeconomic importance of coastal communities and many cities small and medium sized businesses, found them housing and natural resources for their survival. Among these features is the wood species Virola surinamensis, one of the largest commercial value, target the illegal exploitation and major threat to their extinction trees, according to the study of the Goeldi Museum.

Wood thousand and one uses

The ferrule is the favorite wood species for the manufacture of plywood, packaging, sporting goods, toys, pencils, sticks, spools and reels, among other items, which makes the species have good economic recovery in the international market, therefore, be one of preferred species, also, the timber trade in the Amazon.

Results of work coordinated by the researcher Leandro V. Ferreira show that there is a great reduction in the number of individuals with commercial value - Virola trees larger than 30 cm diameter. This is the measure that increases your market value - the larger the diameter, the higher the commercial value. The ferrule is practically absent in the areas already explored and exploration compared to unexploited locus of the research.

Yellow or red light?

The main warning the study comes from the observation of drastic reduction of juveniles Virola and the reduction of "female trees." Leandro V. Ferreira explains that trees, like animals, have different sexes, therefore, existing "tree-male" and "female-trees", where the latter are responsible for the production of fruits and seeds. With the decreasing number of females Virola removed by logging, for it is these that have the largest diameters, and therefore more valuable, restocking of harvested areas is even more difficult because we have no more seeds to promote this repopulation.

In Caxiuanã National Forest, drive sustainable conservation, has the largest inventory of Virola young adult demonstrating the importance of protected areas for the conservation of natural resources. This species is being studied in permanent plots for monitoring forest dynamics under the Project LTER-Caxiuanã, which recently completed a dissertation on this species.

Restocking and maintenance - Logging in floodplain forests of Pará is governed by Normative Instruction No. 40 of the Secretary of State for the Environment (SEMA / PA), which sets standards for forest management activity. In IN No. 40, the lower limit of selective cutting of timber species in lowland forests is 50 centimeters. This limit is appropriate for the operation of Virola, but the study makes a recommendation that Sema / PA including an article in IN No. 40, to require the preservation of males and females of Virola individuals, in order to guarantee the survival of reproductive matrices of this species, fundamental to replenish the lowland forests.

found this at http://www.revistaamazonia.com.br/meio-ambiente/3836-cientistas-afirmam-que-arvore-virola-sofre-qextincao-anunciadaq

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this needs growing just for the reforestation value.... no wonder seeds are so fkn hard to come by

Does anyone here know of any reforestation initiatives that I can maybe help with either funding or other help in any way possible?... please

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Dictionary of Trees, Volume 2: South America: Nomenclature ...,





Tropical species databases




wood info



growing info




ecology / nature



ethnobotanical use

Edited by ☽Ţ ҉ĥϋηϠ₡яღ☯ॐ€ðяئॐ♡Pϟiℓℴϟℴ

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So, have you had any sprout? these seeds/nuts are mighty expensive, though i have found no shortage of places selling them.

a very interesting plant, it seems the sap of the tree may have been used to treat tooth aches and head aches much like many other mimosa/acacia trees. wonder if there is any "blood" between the plants that might explain that.

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have since found a grower of sebifera ...but a small wee sapling yet...

perhaps at some point in future there may be an opportunity to have a bash at trying to bonsai /miniaturise on of these amazing ents

i should probably prep by mosstubs and mandatory river walks to gather sphagnum to prep and get clean/grow out/etc...

or just buy some online the lazy way :P

i wonder how much it may be a good idea to try and terrestrialise some of my java moss from the aquarium for virolas?

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no success from those from ethnoplantes no... , second time running ..

and they seem pretty expensive when you consider how dead the seeds are I guess from there..

you must be in that place where all the virola leads hide i guess billy?

but i did some research to find that the ethnoplantes weren't stored correctly in damp sphagnum from the moment they were plucked from the tree

in fact this information was learned here at SAB by a super SABber ...

... ethnoplantes virola came bone fukken dry like acacia seeds would , no moss, not even wet coir..

and anyway the ethnoplantes virola (and cacao come to mention it) were probably older than they should be and were definitely drier and dead'er than they should be ... ;)

so ...another bunch of reasons they wouldn't have worked anyway ..

As far as I can learn, Virola nuts are only viable for about a month or 2 in general [-despite one site saying 10 months-and only if correctly stored in fresh damp sphagnum at 20c and rushed to the planting pot as very fast as possible ) and that's only at a 45% germ rate... as far as research tells me..

should i get excited for virola this year ?...

or give up as planned?....




another small link to some nice pics to add to the thread too


Edited by ☽Ţ ҉ĥϋηϠ₡яღ☯ॐ€ðяئॐ♡Pϟiℓℴϟℴ

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cant help with the virola. but, What an awesome photo of the amazonian milk frogs! Thank you for that.

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cant help with the virola. but, What an awesome photo of the amazonian milk frogs! Thank you for that.


frog n setup porn from europe^^


So lucky to have finally found some really nice avenues this year on sebifera and surinamensis ..

i sure hope i've got the luck to get germination and the skills/environment to raise them slowly in a new loving home

-if i should become a happy hobby horse n get to wallow in the swamps with the mighty Ents this year..

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not so lucky for now on sebifera , possibly in july


maybe looking good for surinamensis , will post here if any joy and if its not nutmegs or something silly...

will be checking with these lovely piccie libraries like this one




and some more found porn




Edited by ☽Ţ ҉ĥϋηϠ₡яღ☯ॐ€ðяئॐ♡Pϟiℓℴϟℴ
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well at least i can use all this for the frogs we're planning on if the virola this year flops uniformly with the previous years

but figured I should prep well with a range of methods in case some virola seeds actually make it to my garden

olde toad plan


new frog plan (any pots that the ayas free up through failing)


magick waterfall plan


RFB viridis style plan


river's edge plan


tune to play to them and self while setting up

Edited by ☽Ţ ҉ĥϋηϠ₡яღ☯ॐ€ðяئॐ♡Pϟiℓℴϟℴ

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some more prep..., more loam too and finished mossing off


























Edited by ☽Ţ ҉ĥϋηϠ₡яღ☯ॐ€ðяئॐ♡Pϟiℓℴϟℴ
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the soil charge triad to use on you has been decided!! :3

the origin of all things = mother black (wood charcoal)

an infinity that surpasses the heavens = sky blue (ground hypnacea moss)

the flaming hot thing = cardinal red (hydroleca)

grinding and devouring rocks = sharp grey (ground carpet moss)

the light that dictates the time of eternity = luminous silver (post box waiting on seeds)

the solid earth that protects = gaia brown (mature leaf mould + loam)

the roar of the sky engulfed in flames = horizon gold (ground sphagnum)

the cry of a soul kept from the light = moss green (decayed dried sphagnum)

the light that fills up your eyes = tears of the rainbow! (ericaceous)

a heat that will scorch all creation = fire red (vermiculite)

a completeness that goes through solid ground = earth brown (fine orchid bark)

the darkness that dictates the time of destruction = demolition black (ericaceous + square black pots)

the hidden silence of passion = deep vermillion (DE granular kitty litter + horticultural granite gravel)

the daggers of an angry rain = arrow black (activated carbon)

the one who forbids the propagation of life = virgin white (tap water)

soil that drinks thirst = water blue (old aquarium/HMA filter water)

the ultimate spirit = salt gun metal (epsom salt)

the critical point of everything = burning gold (ormus)

the deception to hollow out a dimension = magic violet (sedge peat)

that which can even feed on empty space = crusher white (perlite)

the strength of steel = burnt sienna (coco fibre)

from the eternal vitality of life = evergreen (decomposed pine bark mould)

the light that drives a wedge into eternity = photon silver (15W IP68 LED)

to freeze all things = ice blue (ground NZ sphagnum)

the helix of my life = endless white (ground Chilean sphagnum)

"what an amazing energy" :o:wink: ...

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looking good so far , surface temp at 29C and the heat mat is under 1cm of water (watered 5 litres of aquarium from underneath to hydrate everything slowly so the moss sets in well :3


.... only 19 more sandwich filler tubs or fruit tubs to go and will have a humidity dome for every single one .


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yay , now that's just hit the goldilocks zone :3


I guess i could really do with some seed now eh?

or will it just be pampered moss afterall?

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not sure if someone's tryna have a laugh with/at me but ...

some strangely familiar mail just came through my door...
was like a flashback ...
inside the pack had an identical bag with an identical label with 2 ice-cold identical seeds with the same identical "zero protection from being crushed"-ness ...

.. but a bit of damp mush with them was the only difference -...

to the seeds i got twice from ethnoplantes in france ...

that were old, dead, expensive.. and failed every try.. - because they were fkn dead (!)

so obviously whoever sent them is perhaps grooming me to see if they can scam people ..?

or just ignored all my warnings..

i even still have ethnoplantes dead Theobroma cacao seed pack label/sticker from back then

i cover my webcam up with it lol ..but the same labeling is hauntingly identical..

- enough for it to be the exact same source ..

and come to think of it.... they were bone dry when they arrived too

i only kept the sticker because it was something to rid that nasty spy hole above the screen that was close at hand at the time i thunk of it..

oddly enough , it said franquia was where they were delivered from ... - not portugal..

edit - or so i wrongly thought -

i sure hope this isnt the same guy as ethnoplantes that i took the time and care to specifically warn Roze at sts and everybody else about .....

..thankfully - an ebayer cayany06 just told me the processing of their surinamensi fruits is finally complete and they have been posted ..

which is really really exciting because maybe I'll actually get some nutz like mr T this time :3

i can only suspect "someone" (or some two) is messing me around pretty badly in an unforgiveable way ... as far as virola is concerned .. -edit quelle surprise it's la saboteur at ethnoplantes and Roze at sts.

its hard to imagine that the ebayer guy is ethnoplantes though,

because the ethnoplantes guy would only respond back then to my mails that my languages teacher mum helped me with all those years ago when she was being nice ...; if i used my/her best french ...
this ebayer has fantastic english tho ... and is supposed to be a French dude in Guyana according to Roze.. who told me they had gotten a pack from cayany06 for me ... that never ever turned up..

just dead ethnoplantes sebifera... ???

i smell a big fucking dirty great rat somewhere amongst all this mess though..

now i don't think i can afford to trust much until these 3 packs of virola seeds i bought from that ebayer i was linked to by Roze at sts....

-arrive in a condition that is acceptable - alive and well that is ..

i think i spent enough on trying to get help with Virola already ..

and it's costing too much in loph's that i was told i would be reimbursed for but never was ..

to get just 1 link and 2 dead seeds.., and some cheeky comments about me supposedly getting free seeds and about how many seeds i had bought ..

when they were hardly expensive.. and i only bought 45 seeds (3 packs of 15)

because I just had this gut feeling people would let me down

or take all i had to offer and give nothing back .. despite my willingness to post them germinates if i was successful - for free i might add.. just for the love of the tree

and because that's how you look for breeding pairs in aquaria/fish keeping ..

which is my main background root of learning

(hence the aquarium)

and if they meant free dead sebifera seeds from ethnoplantes? they actually cost about £80

in peijotl all in all so far ... including shippings (a total of 4 shippings i foot the bill for)

and having to win one so all the hours i spent watching it too

At least I have collected all the data i can find for someone in my wake to maybe get there faster

and help the trees one day... while their seeds are still alive..

i almost wanna throw away these 2 seeds , (please tell me they aren't from ethnoplantes?)

-edit- pffft!

but still i hope I'm not wasting my time in soaking them now while i watch them float ...

and attempting to sow them later..

- if they rot and infect a potential good bunch coming in from Guyana (if that ebayer really is the real deal) - it will just screw it up ..

So I think I'm going to treat those 2 nuts as lower priority but keep them ....

and see if they sprout or do anything before the e/bay order shows up..

because you never know..

perhaps ethnoplantes might sort their virola and cacao seed problem out

-with fresh ones that are actually alive this time?

This has been another disaster so far for the umpteenth year running so I'm possibly going to give up on Virola if they dont show up.

But the surinamensis guy seems very knowledgeable and very genuine indeed...

fingers x'd and hope for the best.






Edited by ☽Ţ ҉ĥϋηϠ₡яღ☯ॐ€ðяئॐ♡Pϟiℓℴϟℴ
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