That Gok guy really annoys me.

[ThunderIdeal]

if i'm not mixing people up, halcyon daze has been a fairly inflammatory poster since day one.

a word of advice, historically, the more inflammatory members don't gain truckloads of respect here and usually disappear if they don't get themselves banned.

(to clarify, i'm not casting any judgements on the thread, just sharing my observation about one of the reasons why SAB is the best forum i've ever been involved with)

[goneski]

this thread may or may not say a lot about peoples judgements about gender roles & i don't even know what misogyny has to do with it

A man acting as feminine is seen as 'too much', over the top, and whatever else people have said here. Masculinity is held to a higher standard and is expected behaviour. A male acting as feminine is seen to be stooping low -- criticised, ridiculed, seen as weak, inferior, etc. The inverse, however, does not seem to hold true (masculine women).

I'm sure there's a threshold at which masculinity invites criticism, but there's much more leeway.

It's basically the manifestation of a deeply-rooted form of misogyny. Pretty sure it's fairly obvious and I shouldn't have to write a thesis.

I agree the character in question is just shitty corporate advertising and open to criticism, but it's completely disingenuous to suggest that anyone in this thread so far has attacked it from that angle. All I've seen are ridiculous ad hominem attacks against feminine gay guys.

[paradox]

you don't need to write a thesis, i see what you're saying, i just think referring to a man that hates a man for being feminine as a misogynist is a misuse of the term. but i also won't write a thesis as in regards to societry i see what you mean & i'd be nit picking..

to me i find pulling all these seemingly separate forms of human ignorance apart & assigning complex psychological definitions to them all is counteractive to the cause, it just over complexifies something thats actually quite simple.. you don't need to think too hard about it to realize that racism, homophobia, misogyny & every other form of ignorance you can imagine are just separate manifestations of the one all encompassing STUPIDITY.

the deep rooted misogynistic tendencies in society at a deep level is really no different from the deep rooted materialism, religious delusion, racism & toxic mass-psychological states of being that has normalized the full scale rape of every aspect of nature & human thought. just different forms of the one stupidity.

almost everything in this culture is a fucking pile of stupid shit & the majority of individuals are very stupid creatures & it looks like this fact means our own children & grandchildren, or the next generation in general will inherit nothing but a load of crap & probably very slow painful deaths, or maybe quick painful deaths, who knows.. if you're gay or transgender etc then you will be focused on the fact people are homophobic, cause thats your experience, if you're aboriginal you'll probably focus on racist white colonialists, if you're a woman you'll focus on misogyny. if you have half a brain in your head, enough to pay attention to the facts, you'll be focused on stupidity in all it's forms.. it doesn't matter where you're looking from, it's all just stupidity & it's fucking up everything that is good on this earth.

masculinity is held to higher standard by who? probably a very large number extremely stupid thick skulled people, which unfortunately for us makes up the vast majority of our society. does that mean we should spend our lives crying about it? not that i'm saying that is what you are doing by the way.. but if that was the way to go about it then i would have given up & put a bullet in my head a long time ago because this kind of stupidity is rife in all aspects of our culture, not just sexists & homophobes, it's bloody everywhere & to focus too intently on singling it out as an issue of misogyny or homophobia or racism or whatever the issue may be imo is short sighted. the only way to come to terms with it is to attempt to broaden our own perspectives & buffer ourselves against the pitfalls of confronting the horrors of human ignorance so we can manage to at least attempt some kind of intelligent discourse in this toxic global infestation of psychotically mutated monkeys we call human society.

[ballzac]

It's basically the manifestation of a deeply-rooted form of misogyny. Pretty sure it's fairly obvious and I shouldn't have to write a thesis.

I could be wrong, because I don't know you or exactly what your positions are, but from some of your posts here, I think it is highly unlikely that you would follow that same line of reasoning if it was a woman being criticised for being 'too masculine'. I think you would probably use the reverse reasoning to support a conclusion that it was also misogyny. I sincerely apologise if this is not true, but I see this time and time again. A woman is criticised for being too masculine and it is misogyny because she's a woman. A man is criticised for being too feminine and it is misogyny because of the assumption that masculinity is better. It's ideological thinking to start from the conclusion, that women are the victim, and build your chain of logic to fit that.

 

I'm sure there's a threshold at which masculinity invites criticism, but there's much more leeway.

Perhaps when you said in the fitness thread that you "don't feel very comfortable with the idea of going to a gym full of bros", that is the threshold? Perhaps you meant a more nuanced meaning of the word "bros", but without further qualifying the term, it just sounds as though overtly masculine men make you feel uncomfortable in the same way that overtly effeminate men make some other people feel uncomfortable. So it seems a little hypocritical of you to be so judgmental about this.

[ThunderIdeal]

i might as well point out that from some of your posts here zac, you're quick to point out that women aren't always the victims, which is true, although i think it's unrealistic not to cede that women more frequently are the victims. just sayin'..

and while i'm just sayin'..... sometimes you enter a scenario and there appears to be a bunch of men who are seem to think they are real men, that is, unbearable, cock-worshipping pinheads. "bros". our tendancy to prejudge can really be to our own detriment though, because they might just be a bunch of well-adjusted, cool as fuck dudes doing whatever they do.

remember too, that personalities are multi-layered.

[paradox]

All I've seen are ridiculous ad hominem attacks against feminine gay guys.

i agree that there is a lot of that in this thread, i appreciate your point but that isn't all there is in this thread. i think if thats all you've seen then you're biased in your perspective.

ballzac said: ... it seems a little hypocritical of you to be so judgmental about this.

this may be a bit more subtle also ballzac, maybe an analogy is the way that many aboriginal people may feel uncomfortable in the company of or racist toward white people because their families have had everything they had taken from them & they themselves have spent their lives being judged & discriminated against by white people & more or less forced to the poor fringes of society. who can blame them for being pissed off?

by the way i also feel uncomfortable going to the gym & hanging out with the 'bro's' not cause i'm worried about being discriminated against but because it seems most of those kind of guys i don't have the faintest thing in common with, it's a bit uncomfortable hanging out with people you have nothing to say to.

[Halcyon Daze]

if i'm not mixing people up, halcyon daze has been a fairly inflammatory poster since day one.

LOL You are definitely mixing me up mate

Although I had bit of a spat with psylo who kept harassing me and trolling my threads.

I don't know why people see any of my comments in this thread as inflamitory. All I said was that I find that Gok's behaviour annoying. It's not because he's gay. It's because he acts over the top and kinda pervy just to cash in.

I was just having a bitch in a bitching thread... I'm sure that's what it's here for, a place to find some respite from political correctness.

Anyway, there are so many disclaimers in this thread it's becoming a bit of a joke. It's wasn't meant to be too serious.

Carry on...

[paradox]

 

remember too, that personalities are multi-layered.

yep

[ballzac]

i think it's unrealistic not to cede that women more frequently are the victims.

I personally don't know which, out of male and female, are more frequently the victims, but I don't think it matters most of the time. It's important to look at things on a case by case basis. While larger societal contexts exist, it too often results in discrimination when we take that into account when evaluating individual cases.

But, if we are to deem it important, then we need to use some rigorous means to try to actually work out who has it worse. It's complicated, because there isn't some one-dimensional measure of 'victimhood' that we can just tally up a number and see who's on top. For example, if more men suffer brutal beatings, but more women suffer rapes, do we assign different weightings to these different crimes in our metric to decide which gender is more victimised?

As I said, I don't know which is more frequently the victim. My contention has never been that men are victimised more than women, but that when they are, it is more often ignored or minimised, that as a society we see misogyny everywhere, but ignore blatant misandry. It may seem obvious to you that women are more frequently the victims, but when 80% of the victims of violent crime are men, 90+% of workplace deaths are men etc., it's not so obvious to me, and I'd like to ask the same question I asked multiple times to various people in 'that thread', and that is "What metric are you using in coming to the conclusion that women are more frequently the victims?" Citing 'common knowledge' is far from enough to convince me.

Regardless, I don't think it should be a competition of who has it worse. I think every individual victim matters.

 

All I said was that I find that Gok's behaviour annoying. It's not because he's gay. It's because he acts over the top and kinda pervy just to cash in.

There is a scene from "Extras" that is so appropriate for this thread, but I can't find it on youtube to post

[ballzac]

this may be a bit more subtle also ballzac, maybe an analogy is the way that many aboriginal people may feel uncomfortable in the company of or racist toward white people because their families have had everything they had taken from them & they themselves have spent their lives being judged & discriminated against by white people & more or less forced to the poor fringes of society. who can blame them for being pissed off?

Yep, I'm not saying that people don't often have valid reason for having these responses to other people, but I would still say that this hypothetical person would be a hypocrite if they complained about white people not feeling comfortable around Aborigines.

 

Carry on...

I only just noticed this, but I think that was a Freudian slip and you're a closet Kenneth Williams fan

[etherealdrifter]

 

[Bigred]

I just hate how they make gays seem like pussy's you know prance round etc

My friend is gay and he is just like a normal guy .

[etherealdrifter]

i think the issue at hand is to stop discerning between gay and straight,cross gender,etc

carmon, carry on movies were a great source of prepube porn for many.

[bullit]

if i'm not mixing people up, halcyon daze has been a fairly inflammatory poster since day one.

a word of advice, historically, the more inflammatory members don't gain truckloads of respect here and usually disappear if they don't get themselves banned.

(to clarify, i'm not casting any judgements on the thread, just sharing my observation about one of the reasons why SAB is the best forum i've ever been involved with)

well i am definitely fucked mite take sum nurofen

[ThunderIdeal]

?

i refer to people who go around instigating controversy

[whitewind]

I honestly don't think Halcyon Daze is inflammatory. But I am a bit disappointed about the "choose to be gay" thing. First of all, it's not really a choice, people simply are gay. For bisexual people, perhaps, there could be a choice. They could "choose" either way. I have a bi friend who chooses to remain in a steady partnership with a woman he loves. For hetero people, they are simply hetero. I mean, it's really that straightforward. With trans people, it's more complicated, but until we get people understanding the gay thing I think transgender issues are waaay to complicated for those minds to grasp.

As for choosing to be camp or "over the top" what shits me more is when guys act over-macho. I reckon they have something to hide. Probably a secret fear of being gay (because it's a choice, right?). *jokes* This happens far more frequently than someone being "over gay" - probably because the only really safe place to be over gay is in their own home or on TV because the over-macho guys will likely try to beat the shit out of them for no good reason than it's a macho thing to do. Give me an overly effeminate, gentle guy over a thug any day, thanks. At least they probably use their brains a bit more and you can have a decent conversation with them.

[ballzac]

 

But I am a bit disappointed about the "choose to be gay" thing.

Personally, I think people (from all 'sides') place too much importance on this. So what if it was a choice? When people use it as an argument against bigots who stick their nose into other peoples' business, it almost comes across as like a concession that it would be wrong if it was something that could be chosen, like it's an unfortunate affliction or something. I know it's not meant like that, but I think it shouldn't even rate on the scale of what's important when it comes to people being allowed to be who they are, choice or no choice.

[whitewind]

I think it's nice if people are given the choice to act out their desires, but I think most sexual impulses are biologically driven.

[glimpse]

heres an idea HD, turn off your tv and dont shop at target

"all the freaky people make the beauty of the world"

[Halcyon Daze]

Good idea glimpse. This all started when I set up a new TV right beside my computer.

& I went without one for SOOOO long. What have I done!

[bullit]

?

i refer to people who go around instigating controversy

was tring to lighten the mood i dont care what ya fuck as long its not a kid or dead

and yeah whats wrong with a lil controversy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controversy

have a good nite EVERY1

[Halcyon Daze]

On ya bullit, that's the spirit mate We really shouldn't be getting bogged down in semantics. Besides look at the way it's got us all out, having a good ol' rollicking conversation. I'm feeling the love people Hopefully it'll all end in a big group hug and I'll be one step closer to coming out of the closet LOL.

 

[glimpse]

personally, i am not a big fan of the gok

but my wife loves the gok, cant get enough of the gok she reckons

its unfortunate that the gok leaves a bad taste in your mouth HD, different strokes ay

[Halcyon Daze]

Wow, I was just talking to my girlfriend and I asked her what she thinks of Gok and she retorted "Oh he's ANNOYING!"

Different strokes alright.

[mutant]

OP: "I like everyone"

ME: "what a pussy!"

****

The stupidest thing about all posts in this thread is that they dont include a link for someone to see what this guy does and got you all so angry. No I am not googling, the annoying thing so far is this thread.

This means you assume all know him. People are so fucking stupid, man, you're bitching about someone you think is behaving somewhat problematically, and you assume everyone knows him. Its your negative hero! I think you are all jealous of him crypho-homosexual or not...

I would love to see a link and an opinion from a homosexual.