ancestor/natur worship vs main religions

[planthelper]

natur (ancestor) worship vs main religions

ancestor warship and natur worship, are much closer to my heart than, most of the main stream religions.

i like it, how many main religions, have a focus on how to live a life with good virtues.
i hate the fact though, that christians and muslims, have and still use, force and violance, to obtain more members!
i despise deeply, the fact that some christian religions (coptic) and the muslim faith, allowe the marriage of prepubesent girls!!

however, i like the idea of warshiping plants and showing gratitude towards ones ancestors, and even the believe that they can guide you thru life. participating in a church service, is sure good exercise, and music and singing is cool, but it's not as good as being in nature, and having glimpses of what life is really about!

i have as well no problems with polytheism, as it makes far more sense, to assume if there is "something out there", that this something, exists more than once.

i guess the invention of "one god" was only made so that all revenu's (all money and goods donated, for a false hope!!!) would go to one institution only.
the first to do so, i believe was ra.

this monotheism, suited the king who was god as well, perfectly. it is purly a money and power grabbing tactic, which paid off handsomely.
but it get's teached as it would be the only truth, and people get brainwashed with it, to the max.

a bit later living gods, fell out of fashion, and this meant that king and pope had to join forces, and it went well, and still does well, in many regions of this planet.

the enlightenment has to continue, we have to educate oureselves, so that at one stage all the wars and abuse, has it's end.

and btw, the path to a better world continues, because france has made beauty pagent competitions illegal,
i hope australia follows.

Edited September 22, 2013 by planthelper

[in_spirit]

To a large extent i would agree with you, but, i like my ancestors, which I know very little about because of modern religion and politics beleive that war is a way. I extend that beleif to the point that the people whom are oppressed (anyone who is not a church or politician) need to rise against the top of the pyramid few and reclaim ownership of themselves their families etc and the only way to do that is to fight for your freedom, but who is willing to put their own life on the line to fight a war where people are so blind to what has happened it is what they would now consider normal freedom, and in reality is a virtual prison. It is so entrenched that the armies would shoot their own etc man is actually very weak and controllable as is shown by society.

[Weirdo]

In my opinion religions need members in order to survive, whereas we do not need religions in order to survive. Nature is pure balance and strives to maintain that status quo no matter what humanity throws at it. If human beings lived within natural bounds we might have a chance at survival on this planet. But, as human beings are 'superior' to all other life forms due to our power of reason, we will always be a threat to ourselves and all others.

Greed, hate and the desire to control others are human wants(as opposed to needs) which, whether we like it or not, will always be parts of our nature and will always threaten the well-being of the human race. In other words, we won't be content until we have caused our own extinction and on a positive note, will bring back an uncontested natural balance to the planet and ensure it's survival.

I believe we are here to learn this lesson and therefore learn humility in face of the ultimate power of the universe......Mother Nature. She will prevail long after we have returned to cosmic dust. The sooner we learn to humbly live within her rules and bounds, the sooner we will learn to survive under her her umbrella of tough love.

Mother Nature grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, courage to change the things that should be changed, and wisdom to know the difference.

[gtarman]

I think we should build a nature warship. I even drew up a rough blueprint:

[Optimystic]

we're born geniuses and then society murders our innocence before we get out of grade school... so I think the least we can do

is protect the kids from their parents and the only way to do that which is politically correct (lol) is to teach them how to think

so they can overcome what they were taught to think.. now I don't mean go to war with parents or anything like that lol

I like many of the ancient religions because, even when they are not necessarily based in truth, they were often based in an attempt

to aide humanity in dealing with the circumstances of their survival... and not just that but helping to procure the right attitudes

for which to help them manage through life...

we've come this far with technology and yet we still see damn near the exact same issues in societies as hundreds of years ago...

go figure we've had mainstream abrahamism just as long... i view it like a computer operating system with a built in virus 'demons 6.0'

and well... we are the programmers and its our task to eliminate the virus without destroying the motherboard...

but thats just me I guess... part of me says we don't have to fight anything external but im reminded pretty regularly that

what is inside is always reflected on the outside... and since theres no way to tell it, I reckon i'll show it as often as possible to

as many who will look and maybe i'll slip, maybe it'll earn me adversity but at least I can look in the mirror and recognize my own soul

and at least I will die with dignity.... what I appreciate most about the older cultures is their seemingly complete lack of fear when it came to the confrtontation of what they believed in or even in their survival... im sure there was a such thing as fear of death,

but there were so many things they had to overcome which make our physical obstacles these days compare like peanuts... but our

spiritual obstacles... fuck me... we've got a doozy... theres not really a battlefield I don't think.. it almost seems as if the task is to save those

whom have drawn the red lines in blood for us.

in the analogy of the plant... if you take a plant and grow it indoors, the plant will invariably suffer, as the plant relies on the struggles

of nature to help build strength... the wind blows and the stems get stronger... the downward force of gravity forces the plant to seek

balance and to branch out... some plants might put out thousands upon thousands of seeds only for one hero to emerge, having overcome

all of the storms and the floods...... its like all those sperms racing to the eggs... we're all winners in that respect, but as soon as we're born into nature, all that great challenge is removed... all these people appear who say they have all these answers and so we never look... then we become vulnerable to cultural pressure as young adults... they say we're supposed to respect the elders but what do you do when the elders have lost respect for the children?

that beauty pageant thing reminds me of the idea that as a 'whole', we are quite possibly the victims of

selective breeding... where the human who decided he was more intelligent than nature, placed their

values in material wants and needs rather than in respect for the human being... the good news

is that everyone has the ability and power to 'become'

only a few out of every thousand ever discover who they really are... I guess its human nature but I don't wanna believe that...

Edited September 25, 2013 by Spine Collector

[Optimystic]

In regards to war, how bout Ted Turners thought

http://newsbusters.org/blogs/noel-sheppard/2013/09/23/ted-turner-men-should-be-barred-holding-political-office-100-years

I can dig it... given he didn't mean these women:

http://www.funnyordie.com/videos/285c1338bd/two-beauty-contestants-one-coherent-answer?rel=player

http://www.funnyordie.com/videos/3d64574275/miss-utah-oh-miss-utah

http://www.funnyordie.com/videos/f53f5acb85/play-miss-south-carolina-off-keyboard-cat

yep I agree with banning beauty pageants

Edited September 25, 2013 by Spine Collector

[SunChaser]

i hate the fact though, that christians and muslims, have and still use, force and violance, to obtain more members!

lol, are you seriously trying to claim the Abramhamic religions are the only ones who partake in this kind of behaviour? I’m quite sure your Viking ancestors would still be doing some very brutal shit in the name of there beliefs if they weren’t all converted to Christianity.

i despise deeply, the fact that some christian religions (coptic) and the muslim faith, allowe the marriage of prepubesent girls!!

Honestly, I’d argue that the wide spread introduction of the Abramhamic religions is one of the main reasons why this practice is no longer so wide spread and to assume that pagans have never been apart of that type of behaviour is probably very ignorant, imo.

i guess the invention of "one god" was only made so that all revenu's (all money and goods donated, for a false hope!!!) would go to one institution only. the first to do so, i believe was ra.

Ok, don’t really know what you mean by saying Ra was the first to create one God, but as far as I can tell he was one of many Egyptian gods. Anyway, you’ve got it all wrong for why one god was created, since it was originally invented as an anti-establishment idea by nomadic desert dwellers. Most religions until then all needed a temple, preist, shaman or some kind of hierarchy system for an individual to interact with there god(s). The idea of one god who was everywhere and could be contacted at anytime actually gave people a sense of significance without needing to rely on the "institution".

the enlightenment has to continue, we have to educate oureselves, so that at one stage all the wars and abuse, has it's end.

That will only ever happen when people wake up to themselves and realise that all religions and spritual beliefs are bullshit. You have no purpose except for the one you create for yourself in the physical world from your short little peddy life, there is no such thing as karma and once you die, you are gone forever and will never exist in any other kind of form. If you want to be a scared little mouse and hide from your own mortality by drowning yourself in stupid fantasies, then go fucking read harry potter or some shit. Otherwise, wise the fuck up, come to your senses and just deal with it, WHAT YOU SEE IS ALL THERE IS.

Edited September 25, 2013 by SunChaser

[in_spirit]

Ok, don’t really know what you mean by saying Ra was the first to create one God, but as far as I can tell he was one of many Egyptian gods. Anyway, you’ve got it all wrong for why one god was created, since it was originally invented as an anti-establishment idea by nomadic desert dwellers. Most religions until then all needed a temple, preist, shaman or some kind of hierarchy system for an individual to interact with there god(s). The idea of one god who was everywhere and could be contacted at anytime actually gave people a sense of significance without needing to rely on the "institution".

That will only ever happen when people wake up to themselves and realise that all religions and spritual beliefs are bullshit. You have no purpose except for the one you create for yourself in the physical world from your short little peddy life, there is no such thing as karma and once you die, you are gone forever and will never exist in any other kind of form. If you want to be a scared little mouse and hide from your own mortality by drowning yourself in stupid fantasies, then go fucking read harry potter or some shit. Otherwise, wise the fuck up, come to your senses and just deal with it, WHAT YOU SEE IS ALL THERE IS.

Hey you could be right but how can anyone prove the beleif from either end? You can't!

People have a right to beleive what ever they want, it's not for anyone else to judge!

Religion and science first moved away from eachother but now they are heading towards eachother, the real problem is not the beleif in itself but the powers behind deciding their is only one way.

[gnome82]

WHAT YOU SEE IS ALL THERE IS.

somebody PLEASE give this person some strong psycadelics, preferably Ayahuasca or psylocybemushrooms, obviously in the correct and respectful way

am sure many many people here would agree ther is MuchMore than what we normally see....

[SunChaser]

Hey you could be right but how can anyone prove the beleif from either end? You can't!

People have a right to beleive what ever they want, it's not for anyone else to judge!

But to be fair, you can prove it from the logical end, since it is in fact your very existence. But on the other end, you can’t prove there aren’t fairies floating around my garden either, but not being able to prove something doesn’t exist doesn’t make it logical to assume it does exist.

You are obviously right about people being allowed to believe in whatever they want, it's none of my business and I do seriously always try keep my mouth shut when people start up. But what I really can’t stand, is when people try to justify their own fairy tales by finding faults in the supernatural beliefs of others. Like Christians claiming the beliefs of muslims are illogical, as if there beliefs are any more credible, or even protestants bagging out Catholics, I could go on with examples forever.

somebody PLEASE give this person some strong psycadelics

True dat, you can never have enough "strong psychedelics". lol, because 'obviously' I’ve never hallucinated before, ya tripper. But seriously, over the years I’ve also seen all the mental illness, psychosis and even suicides that occur around the psychedelic scene when individuals start to take it all to seriously, fair warning rookie!

Anyway, sorry to offend the plant worshippers, you are mostly a cool bunch of people I guess.

[gnome82]

True dat, you can never have enough "strong psychedelics". lol, because 'obviously' I’ve never hallucinated before, ya tripper. But seriously, over the years I’ve also seen all the mental illness, psychosis and even suicides that occur around the psychedelic scene when individuals start to take it all to seriously, fair warning rookie!

Ok so i should have known better than to get involved in an arguement about religion...

And my condolances go out to anybody that has experienced mental illness or suicide but it is not true to point the finger of blame for these tradgic parts of life purely on psycadelics.

Im sure you will find these horrible circumstance are not mutually exclusive to the "psycadelic scene" and are in fact rife right throughout society in general, and thus it has to be concluded that there is usually an underlying social or emotional problem, although it is true that it can be accelerated with prolonged substance ABUSE not to be confused with sacredmental plant use.

In fact it is this kind of attitude that will only assist the authorities to ban our beloved plants, claiming they only lead to mear 'halucinations' followed by mental illness and then suicide.

It could also be said that modern society itself is psycotic and suicidal, given the evidance of the insatiable need for the current unjust economy to spiral out of control, consuming and turning every last available resource into product to feabily try and satify its never ending need to grow, without any care of the damage being caused to the people or the very planet we rely on for survival.

Peace Love rookie out.

[SunChaser]

I didn’t mean to come across as saying using psychedelics will inevitably cause a serious mental illness, since that is quite obviously completely untrue. Overall, I think using psychedelic plants are a very awesome and extremely safe past time, when used responsibly obviously.

I tend to believe the majority of people have the basic mental capacity to realise that the spiritual awakening that can be experienced from taking psychedelics, is just simply a chemical reaction within the brain and has no real higher purpose. It’s simply just one of many ways of obtaining a different perception of reality, which can clearly be enlightening. But like I said, taking it to seriously can create issues in vulnerable people.

Let me put it another way, the fact that you so confidently claimed that just ingesting a psychedelic substance gives you the power to tap into a higher power, indicates to me that you are an easily manipulated person. The type of person who could easily be brain washed and convinced into believing that blowing yourself up would give you a infinite bliss in heaven, if you where raised in a highly religious and war torn part of the world.

Imo, we’re just star waste that has evolved with an overwhelming ability to comprehend our own existence, yet we have not yet developed the tools to be able to explain it, so we just fill in the empty spaces with simple explanations, which really have no basis to the reality of it.

It’s actually really counter productive and short sighted if you think about it. Since when we just settle for simple fairy tale answers, it only holds us back from answering the real complex questions of which we all have the overwhelming desire to answer deep within ourselves.

Anyway, if you want my honest opinion (which you probably don’t, but anyway), we are just the beginning of the story. We are the ancestors of God like entities, which will have an infinite existence and will be able to manipulate there reality in whatever way they choose and have full control over the universe of which we inhabit.

Or maybe I’m completely wrong and reality is in fact very simple. Maybe there is a single entity chillin out up there in the clouds that smacks us on the bum when we do wrong and will send us to a place where we will be eternally tortured for rooting people of the same sex or outside of marriage, or whatever. Or maybe there are plant spirits that rule over us and want us to sacrifice virgins and only give knowledge to people who have a desire to get fucked up on shrooms and DMT.

[in_spirit]

I didnt mean to come across as saying using psychedelics will inevitably cause a serious mental illness, since that is quite obviously completely untrue. Overall, I think using psychedelic plants are a very awesome and extremely safe past time, when used responsibly obviously.

I tend to believe the majority of people have the basic mental capacity to realise that the spiritual awakening that can be experienced from taking psychedelics, is just simply a chemical reaction within the brain and has no real higher purpose. Its simply just one of many ways of obtaining a different perception of reality, which can clearly be enlightening. But like I said, taking it to seriously can create issues in vulnerable people.

Let me put it another way, the fact that you so confidently claimed that just ingesting a psychedelic substance gives you the power to tap into a higher power, indicates to me that you are an easily manipulated person. The type of person who could easily be brain washed and convinced into believing that blowing yourself up would give you a infinite bliss in heaven, if you where raised in a highly religious and war torn part of the world.

Imo, were just star waste that has evolved with an overwhelming ability to comprehend our own existence, yet we have not yet developed the tools to be able to explain it, so we just fill in the empty spaces with simple explanations, which really have no basis to the reality of it.

Its actually really counter productive and short sighted if you think about it. Since when we just settle for simple fairy tale answers, it only holds us back from answering the real complex questions of which we all have the overwhelming desire to answer deep within ourselves.

Anyway, if you want my honest opinion (which you probably dont, but anyway), we are just the beginning of the story. We are the ancestors of God like entities, which will have an infinite existence and will be able to manipulate there reality in whatever way they choose and have full control over the universe of which we inhabit.

Or maybe Im completely wrong and reality is in fact very simple. Maybe there is a single entity chillin out up there in the clouds that smacks us on the bum when we do wrong and will send us to a place where we will be eternally tortured for rooting people of the same sex or outside of marriage, or whatever. Or maybe there are plant spirits that rule over us and want us to sacrifice virgins and only give knowledge to people who have a desire to get fucked up on shrooms and DMT.

Why are you even here???

It sounds like,

You have closed your mind to possibility, perhaps you just need a higher dose???????? To open your mind back up to all the possibilities.

Edit ed for double s

Edited September 26, 2013 by in_spirit

[planthelper]

I tend to believe the majority of people have the basic mental capacity to realise that the spiritual awakening that can be experienced from taking psychedelics, is just simply a chemical reaction within the brain and has no real higher purpose. It’s simply just one of many ways of obtaining a different perception of reality, which can clearly be enlightening. But like I said, taking it to seriously can create issues in vulnerable people.

Let me put it another way, the fact that you so confidently claimed that just ingesting a psychedelic substance gives you the power to tap into a higher power, indicates to me that you are an easily manipulated person. The type of person who could easily be brain washed and convinced into believing that blowing yourself up would give you a infinite bliss in heaven, if you where raised in a highly religious and war torn part of the world.

Imo, we’re just star waste that has evolved with an overwhelming ability to comprehend our own existence, yet we have not yet developed the tools to be able to explain it, so we just fill in the empty spaces with simple explanations, which really have no basis to the reality of it.

It’s actually really counter productive and short sighted if you think about it. Since when we just settle for simple fairy tale answers, it only holds us back from answering the real complex questions of which we all have the overwhelming desire to answer deep within ourselves.

Anyway, if you want my honest opinion (which you probably don’t, but anyway), we are just the beginning of the story. We are the ancestors of God like entities, which will have an infinite existence and will be able to manipulate there reality in whatever way they choose and have full control over the universe of which we inhabit.

this post comes across to me that, there are two opposing forces active inside you.

now all of us have those, but for most of us, we have a single direction we like more.

I say this because, stating on one hand that, halus have no deeper meaning, for me clashes with your believe that our ancestors were higher beings.

I believe you are a person who, comes back from a dmt trip, and than exclaims, so what, nothing really happened.

for me even if it feels, you contacted outside forces, or become god for a while, or have an audience with god, I still don't believ it was really god or what ever, but I still learn an awefull lot of it, and become a better person from it.

and I know that the god concept arose from drug and non drug induced halucinations.

but it's true for some people halus don't seem to make any difference, whilst most people improofe there lifes after taking halus, some people just continue to live there lives as they have done before. my heart goes out to those people, and I think you are one of them.

[SunChaser]

Well, actually I said that I think we are the ancestors of higher beings, but eitherway. I am quite found of the ancient alien theory I must admit, lol.

btw, hallucinogens in general have definitely changed my point of view and given me a far more complex perspective. For the better though? Who can really say? It probably all just comes down to the perspective that you choose to interpret it from, I would think.

But since you yourself have made the claim that dmt has changed your life and made you a better person and also just to satisfy my own pure curiosity, how exactly has it actually made you a better person? Because I have to be honest here and say, from what I’ve read from your posts you do kinda seem to come across as a person with a lot of baggage you can’t seem to get rid of. Not judging you in anyway btw, since I’m probably in a very similar position, but I just find it a bit of a contradiction to claim it’s made you a better person when you don’t exactly seem to be living a full and blissful life.

Anyway, I hope I’m not coming across as mean, but life’s far to short to sugar coat it, imo. Though, I’m sure your enlightenment from ayahuasca has the power to deal with my criticism with ease.

[SunChaser]

Why are you even here???

What, on this earth, or do you mean on this forum? Sometimes I really do have to scratch my head and wonder about both, lol. Seriously though, I love psychedelic plants to put it very simply. But just because I love something, doesn’t mean I have to think it has some supernatural power or brings me closer to god(s).

It sounds like,

You have closed your mind to possibility, perhaps you just need a higher dose???????? To open your mind back up to all the possibilities.

What possibilities? What have you learned that can enlighten the masses? What secrets have these plant spirits shown you that can make the world a better place? Maybe it’s you who has closed your mind and are living in ignorance, princess!

Anyway, I’ve spent enough time debating Christians to know that you can’t debate with the conditioned mind, so whatever.

Peace

[Sallubrious]

. Not judging you in anyway btw, since I’m probably in a very similar position, but I just find it a bit of a contradiction to claim it’s made you a better person when you don’t exactly seem to be living a full and blissful life.

 

Anyway, I hope I’m not coming across as mean, but life’s far to short to sugar coat it, imo. Though, I’m sure your enlightenment from ayahuasca has the power to deal with my criticism with ease.

I'm not afraid to cast judgment

These two sentences directly contradict themselves - you state something that seems to indicate a caring attitude and then you directly contradict yourself in both those sentences. Everything you say after the but negates all the previous content of those sentences.

Clearly you're just trying to mess with his head for your own egotistical reasons.

All your posts seem to indicate a massive internal conflict. On one hand you vehemently deny the existence of anything you can't see but you have obviously researched religion and theology very extensively.

I can't speak of the afterlife or religion but here on earth there are two types of people -those who try to contribute to the group vibe and those who try to detract from it for their own selfish reasons. You are coming off as one of the latter types.

[-RC-]

'The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence.' - The Boondocks S1

Reading a book by Eckhart Tolle atm called A New Earth which came to mind when reading through this thread.

[SunChaser]

I'm not afraid to cast judgment

That's good, I respect people who aren't afraid to say what they think. Though, to be honest you don't exactly come across as being particularly good at it. lol, giving my honest opinion in the politest way possible is not a contradiction, nor is fully researching a topic before dismissing it. In fact, to me your logic resembles the rumblings of a drunken person with a chip on there shoulder.

I can't speak of the afterlife or religion but here on earth there are two types of people -those who try to contribute to the group vibe and those who try to detract from it for their own selfish reasons. You are coming off as one of the latter types.

I totally agree. There are the ‘majority’, who just blindly follow the pack even when they don’t really agree, usually out of fear of being rejected by their peers. Then there are those who are in the minority, who always ask the question ‘why’ before complying with social norms and won’t just blindly accept stupid philosophies, simply out of fear of being labelled as ‘not one of us’.

btw, I wasn't trying to mess with anyone's head either dude. I honestly just strongly disagreed with the opinion of the OP and was in the mood to express it. There's nothing wrong with standing up for your mates though, even if it was a poor attempt.

Edited September 27, 2013 by SunChaser

[Sallubrious]

I feel sorry for you sunchaser.

It must be a sad existence to know 100% for certain that you already know everything and when you die you will be extinguished. I can understand where the attitude and anger comes from when it's put in that context, no soul, no spirit, no connection to your ancestors and no chance of any afterlife or reincarnation etc. It must be hard to deal with.

You can try to suck as much of my energy as you want and you can have it too. Spiritually bankrupt people have a mandate for greed, after all you only live once so why not greedily gather as much as you can before you die.

Now I have a real troll

Yes!

Edited September 28, 2013 by Sally

[gtarman]

^^ Hey ease up. I call myself agnostic, but many people would call me atheistic.

Some might say it's sadder and more bankrupt to live a life of convenient superstitions, rather than having the courage to face things with honesty and deal with the uncertainty of existence head-on.

I, however, would not say this, because I respect the views of people who think/believe differently than I do. And I know you're just having a go at sunchaser, but other people - including myself - may very well take offence at your comments.

[Micromegas]

I teach you the Overman! Mankind is something to be overcome. What have you done to overcome mankind?

All beings so far have created something beyond themselves. Do you want to be the ebb of that great tide, and revert back to the beast rather than overcome mankind? What is the ape to a man? A laughing-stock, a thing of shame. And just so shall a man be to the Overman: a laughing-stock, a thing of shame. You have evolved from worm to man, but much within you is still worm. Once you were apes, yet even now man is more of an ape than any of the apes.

Even the wisest among you is only a confusion and hybrid of plant and phantom. But do I ask you to become phantoms or plants?

Behold, I teach you the Overman! The Overman is the meaning of the earth. Let your will say: The Overman shall be the meaning of the earth! I beg of you my brothers, remain true to the earth, and believe not those who speak to you of otherworldly hopes! Poisoners are they, whether they know it or not. Despisers of life are they, decaying ones and poisoned ones themselves, of whom the earth is weary: so away with them!

Once blasphemy against God was the greatest blasphemy; but God died, and those blasphemers died along with him. Now to blaspheme against the earth is the greatest sin, and to rank love for the Unknowable higher than the meaning of the earth!

Once the soul looked contemptuously upon the body, and then that contempt was the supreme thing: -- the soul wished the body lean, monstrous, and famished. Thus it thought to escape from the body and the earth. But that soul was itself lean, monstrous, and famished; and cruelty was the delight of this soul! So my brothers, tell me: What does your body say about your soul? Is not your soul poverty and filth and wretched contentment?

In truth, man is a polluted river. One must be a sea to receive a polluted river without becoming defiled. I teach you the Overman! He is that sea; in him your great contempt can go under.

What is the greatest thing you can experience? It is the hour of your greatest contempt. The hour in which even your happiness becomes loathsome to you, and so also your reason and virtue.

The hour when you say: What good is my happiness? It is poverty and filth and wretched contentment. But my happiness should justify existence itself!

The hour when you say: What good is my reason? Does it long for knowledge as the lion for his prey? It is poverty and filth and wretched contentment!

The hour when you say: What good is my virtue? It has not yet driven me mad! How weary I am of my good and my evil! It is all poverty and filth and wretched contentment!

The hour when you say: What good is my justice? I do not see that I am filled with fire and burning coals. But the just are filled with fire and burning coals!

The hour when you say: What good is my pity? Is not pity the cross on which he is nailed who loves man? But my pity is no crucifixion!

Have you ever spoken like this? Have you ever cried like this? Ah! If only I had heard you cry this way!

It is not your sin -- it is your moderation that cries to heaven; your very sparingness in sin cries to heaven!

Where is the lightning to lick you with its tongue? Where is the madness with which you should be cleansed?

Behold, I teach you the Overman! He is that lightning, he is that madness!

Thus spoke Zarathustra

Anyway, if you want my honest opinion (which you probably don’t, but anyway), we are just the beginning of the story. We are the ancestors of God like entities, which will have an infinite existence and will be able to manipulate there reality in whatever way they choose and have full control over the universe of which we inhabit.

This is a fantastic thought, and actually I believe there have been isolated instances of ancient civilizations attaining this state, although it has always been on a local scale. Those civilisations attained that state from full-on nature worship and participated in stunning feats of co-creation. Naturally diverse deities existed in these systems as they ruled over climatic and natural events and features; most of those cultures went skew-if at some point as notions and hierarchies of power emerged - that is something we will need to tackle this time around. Religion emerged following, and has the tendency to block the actual inquiry into the nature of reality itself, and postpone the sacred until after life, splitting up earth and heaven, and removing paradise from the here and now. Nature in this system becomes inert. Buddhism is an oddity in this sense, in that it does still investigate the fabric of reality but is decidedly transcendental nevertheless, something which is largely foreign in archaic nature-worship systems. In those systems, the sacred and profane are on the same plane, ancestors remain, paradise can be cultivated, infinite existences are embedded in the world's construction.

That will only ever happen when people wake up to themselves and realise that all religions and spritual beliefs are bullshit. You have no purpose except for the one you create for yourself in the physical world from your short little peddy life, there is no such thing as karma and once you die, you are gone forever and will never exist in any other kind of form. If you want to be a scared little mouse and hide from your own mortality by drowning yourself in stupid fantasies, then go fucking read harry potter or some shit. Otherwise, wise the fuck up, come to your senses and just deal with it, WHAT YOU SEE IS ALL THERE IS.

Niezsche (Zarathustra) didn't believe in an God/gods/spirituality. In many ways there isn't a viewpoint more contrary to my own, and yet I revel in his Nihilism, it's fantastically refreshing. It used to be my mandate, and the attitude behind it, still is. Everything exists within a context, of an individual or group. Purpose is driven by context, as well as belief.The globalisation of the earth and loss of connection with a home range or landscape is what poses the great threat to archaic animist culture and the restoration of our natural world, and the industrial/technological revolution has pushed us all into a convoluted labyrinth of ideologies. That process threatens the loss of context for everyone, but the decent into staggering anonymity is perhaps the catalyst for forward motion we have been awaiting - Karma is, for me, the defining feature of the movement of events through the fabric of reality and is the underlying determinant for current events. The deliverance of evolution will be (has been) through the mechanism of karma. Patterns have been set in motion that must come to fruition. It is at the end of karmic cycle that new worlds are born on earth. Our future and past ancestors await us at that point.

Finding out that things go on and on scared the absolute shit out of me, and from another perspective I might just as well be wrong. But it wasn't something I dreamed up as consolation for myself. There are terrifying spaces awaiting us to clear up things that are unresolved, and there is a crushing loneliness in what are, otherwise, magnificent eternal palaces of self reflection. But there are also places where ancestors reunite in their homelands. They are not articles of belief conjured for some respite from dying. I am convinced that what you see is all there is, there is no other way to proceed. What I am not convinced of, however, is that I have seen everything there is to see. I'm exceedingly conditioned by my experiences now, there is no other way, but things are reevaluated constantly because of the force of motion. Personally it's more about the discussion, and we shouldn't overreact.

I feel sorry for you sunchaser.

It must be a sad existence to know 100% for certain that you already know everything and when you die you will be extinguished. I can understand where the attitude and anger comes from when it's put in that context, no soul, no spirit, no connection to your ancestors and no chance of any afterlife or reincarnation etc. It must be hard to deal with.

You can try to suck as much of my energy as you want and you can have it too. Spiritually bankrupt people have a mandate for greed, after all you only live once so why not greedily gather as much as you can before you die even if it means being a total arsehole the whole time you are alive.

Now I have a real troll

Yes!

Insight: all evaluation is made from a definite perspective: that of the preservation of the individual, a community, a race, a state, a church, a faith, a culture. Because we forget that valuation is always from a perspective, a single individual contains within him a vast confusion of contradictory valuations and consequently of contradictory drives... The wisest man would be the one richest in contradictions, who has, as it were, antennae for all types of men - as well as his great moments of grand harmony - a rare accident even in us !"

Friedrich Nietzsche, The Will to Power

There are ancestors that I worship, for they knew more than me and placed that knowledge in action; and there were those who knew less, and they also, placed their knowledge in action. Nature worship is not dependent on any belief, but only a fondness for that which is most magnificent on this earth. If I feel sorry at all, it's that the earth has had to cope with the childhood of humanity. But we are all growing up together.

Edited September 28, 2013 by Micromegas

[SunChaser]

@Sallyd, I’m not draining anything from you, I merely responded to your feebleminded attempts at poking holes in my argument. Seriously dude, your egotistic delusions about it all being about you is the only thing I can see that’s sad in this thread, get over yourself!

Other than that, your last post is not much better than the first and there for not really worth addressing, considering that people who are religious or have strong spiritual ideologies are among the most greediest on earth and are responsible for basically every mass murder to ever occur.

[Sallubrious]

If defending a mate is in any way greedy or selfish then feel free to me brand as me as such. My intent was to take a hit for PH and it worked. I'd do that any of my mates.

I personally don't believe any organised religion should fall under the banner of spirituality, from what I've observed they are quite the opposite. All I've seen when I've invetsigated any religion is a power structure that serves to enslave people under the fear of some sort of divine retribution if they step out of line. Most of the time those in charge are on the gravy train so money and greed play a big role in organised religion.

They all worship some "holy" text which is bullshit to my mind, the words are the words of men. If I was motivated I could sit down a write a "holy" book or passage of text. If I promoted it the right way a band of gullible simpletons would become my devoted followers and some of the stupid pricks would even die for me.

I've always been for the most part agnostic but a few things have happened to me that make believe that we are much more than just a mass of atoms.

To me traditional aboriginal spirituality is a much better perspective, even if some of the underlying themes (serpents etc) and associated stories seem incredible, those people share a deep connection to each other and the land that gives the life. They have respect for the earth that gives them life and strong connections to their ancestors which we don't have in modern society.

Today we have no respect for the past or the future, most people are just out for what they can get while they are here.

So to my mind religion is not spirituality, it's a greedy power structure with text designed to emotionally blackmail people into submission.

Edited September 29, 2013 by Sally

[planthelper]

i find it sad, if a person only writes in a style, so he can provoke others.