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alien

uni sux! heh

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Hey pplz smile.gif

I am like so fucked with uni heh.

I was doing a bacholor of science, i love biology and all but i dont like the fact that they cut up animals which is something I would not take part in (and thus basically couldnt do the course), so i transfered to law because i want to get into environmental law. And now im stuck with having to do 1 year of non-law subjects (thank God!). Anyway i really really realllllly want to do something plant related, something that doesnt involve hurting animals at all too smile.gif

I was thinking of doing Botany but i dont know if thats at uni? Anyone have any sugestions hehe? thanks smile.gif)))) I would really really REALLY love to do biology but i dont know if i can get away with not chopping up animals for all subjects and i know there is no way i could ever do it (as my Mother puts it, im the only person she has ever known that saves flies from being sprayed killed) i should become a Jain =P

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At my uni, (Murdoch) there is a group of vet students who are conscientious objectors who refuse to cut up animals. The uni respects this and allows them to get their experience by hanging around in the very surgery and helping out/watching and taking notes.

Ever considered Environmental Science or Environmental Biology?

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I think all places of higher learning should be cherised to a far greater extent than they are now, this country needs a strong push towards informing the public by means of having learned people sharing information in a productive & objective way.

The current reigm seems bent on depriving institutions of financial contributions. Learning is a fundamental way of disseminating information that humanity is inherently engaged, we need only look to the primitive to realise this.

Mind can never be full with that which is positive

I would hope that our current state of education is not a reflection of societys view rather some twisted form of government abuse, that we can change this & focus on the country that we all share!

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Originally posted by Tripitaka:

The current reigm seems bent on depriving institutions of financial contributions. {B]

When its not busy trying to justify those practices by encouraging/ pressuring various depts to get multinational subsidies and grants for research so that they can make up for lost federal funding.

The tradition of pure knowledge ( such as it is... ) is being badly fucked over by the insistence that the only relevant forms of study are those which are currently commercially applicable and/ or socially fashionable

Sooner or later we'll all pay the price for that little insistence.

All knowledge is useful, it just might have to wait a few years before it finds its place in the jigsaw, or it could prove something which was held to be unsubstantiated in a different area

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it sure fucking does! uni is the biggest reason for all my problems and worries at the moment. grrr

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Alien : I personally don't have a problem with cutting up animals, so I've stuck with my animal biology subject. But, I am first year science, and along with doing an animal biology course, I have also being doing a plant biology and biotechnology course. From this subject, the lecturer gave a short presentation on the subjects that can be done in second year, and these included Botany subjects and subjects to do with conservation and ecological diversity and stuff like that. SO if your uni doesn't offer botany or anything, pack your bags andmove to queensland smile.gif

"At my uni, (Murdoch) there is a group of vet students who are conscientious objectors who refuse to cut up animals. The uni respects this and allows them to get their experience by hanging around in the very surgery and helping out/watching and taking notes."

hmm, does that seem wrong to anyone else? What are these students gonna do when they actually graduate and they need to treat animals? Refer the patients owners to their university notes and oversea the owners do an operation?

You might not agree with me, but some things need hands on experience to learn.

-bumpy

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Thanks everyone for the replies

I think ill definatly do Environmental Science subjects, looks great smile.gif Maybe some chem ones too. And they offer it at my uni, or i can transfer to Envrionmental Science/Law. Id really love to do that. Speaking of law, law students are really annoying me lately. I hate the whole attitude that so many law students take that if its law its "rigtht" hehe. And everything is so hypocrytical like drug laws. And i dont understand why so many people dont realise that alchol/tobacco/caffine .etc are drugs, its like HELLO?! hehe. Its ok to get drunk every night(im not against alchol i drink myself, just using it as an example cuz its legal) and beat your children, thats legal (well except for the beating part) but God forbid if someone smokes a bit of pot every now and then!! that of course is evil, because its illegal!!! Why arnt drugs like Ecstacy legal when its a known fact that most people who od on it because they arnt really taking MDMA but shit like PMA. It annoys me. I just dont think people understand that its not about drugs being good or bad or whatever its about harm minimisation, saving peoples lives.

Yea i cant hurt animals at all. No animals, i feel so guilty (even things like mosquitos). Snails ate my seedlings i noticed today, but i love snails so i dont really mind lol. I think snails have to be one of the cutest animals. Snails, bell frogs (and all frogs in general) and the Sydney Long Neck Toritouse smile.gif

and lizards and snakes are soo cute too! smile.gif

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I can see it now-

"Sorry sir, I can't operate on your dog, I'm a conscientious objector."

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On the subject of drugs and alcohol:

Yes, that's one of the biggest hypocrisies of our times. It's ok to fill yourself up to the brim every night with beer or worse, but as soon as you smoke a joint, you're a criminal.

That totally sucks, and if somebody wants to be a law student, they should work on changing that first of all, if they want to have a clean conscience and be able to look at themselves in the mirror.

BTW I drink alcohol too, that's why I hate it so much. it's probably the most inferior of all popular drugs, it's effect are not conciousness-expanding at all, on the contrary all that alcohol does is close your conciousness down, and I think that's why the governments of the world promote alcohol, because they want their subjects to be sleeping and working, to be like machines so they are easily guided whichever way those in power have in mind. Alcohol is also terribly addictive, that's why I'm still drinking it. Mind you, I'm not drinking it EVERY day because I got access to better alternatives, but then again nobody can be trippin every day, that's why I still have to rely on alcohol half the time. Of course it would be best to stay sober some times, but that does not appear possible...(wonder why)

On the subject of cutting up animals, I totally understand that. Sometimes they show on tv how the docs cut up humans, and if I look at it for a few seconds, I feel I have to vomit or worse. No way in the world could i do it,mmmmm, perhaps if someone's life depended on it I'd do it, but not as a profession, no way.

Well and if someone needs to have his dog cut up, well somebody else would have to do that.

(Once I lived in the country, and the neighbour said, that a 17 year old farmer's boy would "spay" my cat for free... I found even the idea totally disgusting, some dumb boy cutting around on my cat...

As to which subject you should do...since you feel so much love for animals and all beings in general, how about philosophy or something related?

Just an idea...

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Some really positive things happening here!, I think we are blessed to be able to have the choices that we do. Alien, that you recognise where your unhappiness with the current situation is & act upon your convictions is comendable, free choice & the ability to make conscious decisions about where your future is headed is never easy to deal with!

I believe the current trend to be a "dumbing down" of the public, you point out that the socially acceptable "drugs" (such a guttural, harsh word) such as tobacco, caffeine, alcohol (sugar is not to be forgotten here are also) are the norm & represent what the collective want.

Funny how the coffe break has been indoctrinated & ritualised into office politics, a break whereby you can stimulate the system with caffeine & sugar & then get back to being contributing to the mythology of the working class caste system.

I laugh to Darklight at this commercially applicable style of education, why are we running learning as a commercial venture, it should better our minds not the budget.

It would be interesting to see Tertiary education modeled upon the principles behind Stiener education! Wouldn,t it be nice to see accounting students create beautiful mandalic images,(nothing against accounting students here), but my point is that a wholistic approach to eductaion is needed with a basic recognition of the natural structures that we inhabit.

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Tripitaka, you should leave sugar out of this - it so isn't a drug. Just because it gives you energy, doesn't mean it's psychoactive - man, water to a dehydrated dude is gonna make them feel more alive, doesn't mean we should be inhaling steam on the weekends.

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Guest auto302823

Education in this country is suffering very badly, but vocational training is doing very well.

I'm have a B.S. Computer Science, which has done me very well, and that school at my alma mater is doing very well. It has a high multinational intake that pays for the local students and some.

However, for my own benefit and the benefit of the wider world I'm in the closing stages of a B.A. Cultural Studies, and it is a brilliant open-minded, open-ended course, unfortunbately completely dog-fucked by 12 years of deblitating federal higher-eductaion policy.

Those of us in the course actually getting an education at all are effectively teaching ourselves most of the time -- and the rest are just being passed to keep the books looking alright. It cheapens my degree and cheapens education.

I could rant all day.

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Originally posted by auto302823:

Education in this country is suffering very badly, but vocational training is doing very well.

Which is why I hope the pennypinching vultures of the Federal & State govts don't ever realise this so they can fuck it over in turn

I'm have a B.S. Computer Science, which has done me very well, and that school at my alma mater is doing very well.

I got all the training I needed in TC at TAFE  smile.gif The lecturer was brilliant and committed enough to spend a fair bit of time giving me advice while I set up my business.

The rest has been from experience, which is so devalued these days as society seems to have passed some sort of decree that any knowledge of any sort is worthless unless it has passed through the portals of McHigher Education

In the meantime, stuffed if I know how many uni graduates have approached me- must be hitting double figures by now and mostly just from these forums either- requesting work experience or further training b/c they don't feel they had enough of a chance to look at any aspect of their work in depth while studying for their qualifications. Unfortunately I don't have time or space to do this here- hence the need for facilities at Wandjina  smile.gif

It cheapens my degree and cheapens education.

Yea verily, that it does. Like I said, as a society we will eventually pay for this paradigm unless we wise up to it...

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Guest auto302823

TAFE does a lot of good work. I'm a big believer that vocational degrees don't include enough industry involvement. I also think the two systems (TAFE/UNI) should come together in some form so 1 yr of a degree constitutes a certificate, 2 yrs a diploma, 3 yrs a degree and so forth.

Everyone in the computing industry knows a uni grad. has to be 'trained' before they're productive. Doesn't that say something?

Also, I know soooo many people who have done 1 yr of a degree for doody-squat because they transferred or dropped out.

WHAT A WASTE of talent!

I should probably add I'm paying my way upfront, no austudy. There seems to be something noble in that, god knows why. Eeeediot!

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This is only remotely relevent to the specific topic, but since we are talking about conflicts with educators, and choosing courses i would like to relate to you my experience of uni so far...

While part of me used to think that uni sucked, now i think uni's great sice i've found the right uni and course...

See, i used to have the philosophical dilemma of trying to integrate the scientific concepts of biology i was being spoon-fed at uni (including the chemistry/biology of the brain and the 'scientific' explanations for the action of hallucinogenic compounds)into my understanding of my human experience. The problem lay in the fact that whilst i was 'on the other side' (which happened to be a fair bit of the time), the very textbooks attempting to teach me the laws of consensus reality would no longer exist in their 'normal' sense, and along with them, dissolved the scientific concepts that were described in them. Living a double life (one in consensus reality and one outside consensus reality) became too difficult as i found myself isolated from "The Straight People" (who included most of my loved ones) and led partly to my decision to go and try something more 'arty' (ie. ephemeral) in landscape architecture - where i thought it would be easier to dissolve what seemed to be the line between the world described at uni (the 'real' world) and the rest of the universe. At the same time i made the change, i ceased my habit of imbibing entheogens (in the hope of taking a closer look at the so-called 'consensus reality' that all these scientists seemed to be blabbing about). This seemed like a good idea seeing as how i vaguely remembered that i used to live quite comfortably in that world as a person who had never experienced 'other places'...

But then, the vague and ambiguous concepts that were being hinted at in landscape architecture lectures seemed to be as much 'constructs' as the 'laws' of science that i had come to avoid being exposed to. So, as i became re-acquainted with consensus reality, i decided that it was time to try and navigate through the 'real world' by playing by the apparent rules and only trying to integrate into myself the scientific concepts taught to me at uni as far as they ought to be (ie. as much as you integrate the rules of a board game) - whilst trying to maintain respect for the 'potential' of the human experience. I'm now comfortable in this relationship with science, and am feeling more and more enthusiastic and excited about hearing the next line of the big, hilarious, joke that is a science degree. I look forward to seeing (through scientific research) what fun we can make of what will always, in time, become our 'primitive understanding' of the world we are experiencing. I look forward to using science against dogma (not to say that all scientists are dogmatic, of course).

BTW, I should stress the valuable role of Shaman Australis, these forums, and all you beautiful people in these past few exciting, yet confusing years of personal growth and development - as a sanctuary where i could find people that i knew were 'experienced' and could offer meaningful opinions and useful advice (even if the advice did come to me indirectly). Big thanks to all you adventurous people!! I love you all.

Alien, as you know, if you don't like cutting up animals, you can still be a scientist. any botanist will tell you plants rule the earth since Plants were here first. I think you can even do an ethnobotany type degree here at UWA if you like.

must go study wink.gif

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That totally sucks, and if somebody wants to be a law student, they should work on changing that first of all, if they want to have a clean conscience and be able to look at themselves in the mirror.

lol not all law students/lawyers are evil money-hungry people!! hehe. Honest!

I think its bad the way everyone is contributing to the global degredation of our environment and most people dont care. I think thats criminal. I dont know how some of the people who run companies such as BHP that constantly polute the environment and kill hundreds and thousands (possibly millions?) of animals all for so-called "progress" can live with themselves. But in regards to drug laws, and i think laws in general it seems to be one sided on the decisions, its like the Government doesnt look at the rammifciations of a certian law. Anyway like i was saying before i want to do envrionmental law, i have friends that tell me that there is "no money in envrionmental law" (actually i think there is if you work for the companies sides, but yea i so dont want to do that) but i honestly dont care about the money, I really and truely want to help out the environment and its killing me whats happening to the world. I cant beleive what they do for so called progress. They recently ripped up the old creek (were i found an injured sydney long neck toriuse whom i looked after for years then released back into the wild) on the same street that i live on to build a new road. It use to have a large tortuise population, of Sydney Long neck tortiouses which are endangered. Its just horrible. Another thing that annoys me is how our frog populations are becoming extinct. Please dont use pestacides/herbacides or any kind of "weed killer" in your gardens!!! It kills frogs easily, actually frogs are so sensitive that they can die from being handled by humans. Its believed to be caused by 2 things, 1) There is a high concentration of salt on human skin and frogs skin is porous hence it adsorbs the salt from our skin (and is the reason why frogs are so easily hurt by chemicals in the environment) 2) Fungal growth in human skin is believed to have caused the extinction of many frog species.

So yea if you live in an area that has lots of frogs, then thats a good sign that your area is pretty clean smile.gif

Anyway ill shut up about frogs and tortiouses, i could talk forever about them smile.gif

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i forgot to mention the point of that post was i meant that me being a law student, drug reform is the last thing on my mind. The environment and human rights comes first, but thats just me. Of course i see drug reform as being important but i see human rights and the environment as being more important. I know drug reform would count under human rights i guess but i would consider more important issues like how there are so many people inflicted by disease and starvation around the world, and breaches of basic human rights to people around the world.

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Drug reform is part of human rights.

Why?

Do you think it's right that people get put into jail for years just for growing certain plants?

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Yo Alien,

What is it that you do not like about cutting up an animal?

Hurting anything for your personal enjoyment is bad, I think.

If a few dead animals mean that you can do bioligy and really do what you want in life... the why let it stop you! Putting your mind over matter!

LIFE IS A SACRIFICE. Those dead animals are telling you "dude I gave my life for you, now make the most of it" & Dude you can pay back latter, we take rain checks!(KARMA))

Doing something else is running. You cannot avoid the "pain" that death inflicts on all life. just know why(for what) you are doing it!

Then again , by choosing something other then what you really wanted to do in the first place is your pain that you have to deal with now.... so do not run again and finish UNI! In anycase make up your mind!

People like Gomaos mentioned need cool lawyers and law is applicable everywhere!

Be well

[This message has been edited by brian (edited 15 June 2002).]

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Originally posted by gomaos:

Drug reform is part of human rights.

Why?

Do you think it's right that people get put into jail for years just for growing certain plants?

Yea i know, i think that is terrible, but my whole point was that its not as important as other issues to me. i think that the fact that the world is dieing is more important then drug reform. If we don't stop now there will be nothing left to worry about drug reform anyway. if you wanted to concentrate your efforts on drug reform, thats great. I didnt say its a bad thing, i think its a good thing to have drug reform and i agree its terrible that people go to gaol for growing plants like marijuana. But i think the fact that so many peoeple around the world are dieing from starvation and have so many diseases from over-crouding and the continual degredation of the environment is a more important issue, atleast to me it is. All i was saying is i wouldnt want to be invovled with drug reform or anything like that personally because its not on my top list of priorities. A few people in gaol that shouldnt be, which of course is terrible and wrong, is not as important, to me, as the terrible destruction of the environment and the unneccesary torture, death, disease .etc of millions of people.

I do aknowledge that it is a relavent issue, which is something i do care about and am interested in, I just meant the environment is more important to me then anything else. That is all.

I think this whole conversation is very idealistic and i wish that i could "save the world" so to speak, but im trying to do my part, however small it is.

[This message has been edited by alien (edited 15 June 2002).]

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Originally posted by brian:

Yo Alien,

What is it that you do not like about cutting up an animal?

Hurting anything for your personal enjoyment is bad, I think.

If a few dead animals mean that you can do bioligy and really do what you want in life... the why let it stop you! Putting your mind over matter!

I have a problem with cutting up dead animals because its a waste of life, it serves no purpose. If the animals were dead from natural causes, i would have NO PROBLEM AT ALL with cutting them up. The fact is that they are killed for the sole purpose of being cut up. If they were used for food after the dissection maybe i would be more receptive to the whole idea of animal dissection, but i still doubt that i could do it.

Then again , by choosing something other then what you really wanted to do in the first place is your pain that you have to deal with now.... so do not run again and finish UNI! In anycase make up your mind!

I love law. I should say that, i guess i put it in a negative way because it doesnt seem to be a popular subject on this forum hehe. What i mean about "i love law" is that i love doing law, but i think most of our laws are fucked and dont neccessarily agree with them. Its kind of like "know your enemy" heh. I'm just looking for some subjects to do that coincide with environmental law.

People like Gomaos mentioned need cool lawyers and law is applicable everywhere!

Yes i agree but i would NEVER want to touch criminal law! Even though im good at it, well ive gotten good marks in it so far, its just not something I would like to do. Too much stress and anxiety!!!

Ive also structured my whole degree around envrionmental law because thats what i want to do.

Be well

you too smile.gif

[This message has been edited by alien (edited 15 June 2002).]

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lol one more thing. I think drug reform is a very important issue, and i think its disgusting that people go to gaol for growing pot. I didnt mean it wasnt an important issue, its just the environment is more important to me then anything else smile.gif

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my opinion of uni is mainly coloured by all the fucked psych graduates i used to work with.

also, as darklight said,on graduation from uni one should be at the cutting edge of ones field,but this is rarely so.most are mearly educated in the biases of their lecturer and college,otherwise they are failed.

the alternative though is people like myself,inteligent and selfeducated,but also undereducated in a traditional sense.

t s t .

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Originally posted by t st tantra:

the alternative though is people like myself,inteligent and selfeducated,but also undereducated in a traditional sense.

You make that sound like a bad thing wink.gif

I have no idea why social institutions discourage self education these days, when they aren't outright ignoring it- Adult Ed and TAFE aside, the notion that a mature and otherwise reasonable adult might wish to sepnd their spare time carefully looking into a matter which might be (*gasp*) unrelatd to their employment or financial gain is presented as somehow quaint.

Not that anyone has any spare time these days, we're all to busy working and worrying about money wink.gif What are they trying to stop us from looking at?

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