Soma

[theobromos]

I am intrigued by the possibility that opium or cannabis mixed with ephedra may have been the original soma, especially as traces of all these substances had been found on ritual vessels found in proto-hindu/proto-Zoroastrian temples in Central Asia.

I know these plants have flowers, etc, but the vedic source could be referring to the fact that it is an extract that is the true Soma, not the plant it comes from.

It has been contested that urine use seemed likely from the Vedic sources. So I have looked up the excretion of the relevant compounds in AC Moffat "Clarke´s Isolation and Identification of Drugs in pharmaceuticals, body fluids and post-morem material" 2nd Edition (1986, The Pharmaceutical Press).

Ephedrine has 90% excreted in 24 hours, with 55-75% of the dose unchanged and 8-20% as norephedrine. In alkaline urine the proportion of norephedrine is increased.

Morphine has 60% excreted in 24 hours, mostly in the still equally potent conjugates, such as morphine glucuronide. In acidic urine there is more free morphine. It is stated that an addict can tolerate ten times the minimum lethal dose of 200 mg. So, if we assume that the priests had a habit and that 50 mg were a sufficient entheogenic dose of morphine for the non-addicted parishioners then one priest could produce enough intoxicating urine for 24 people in 24 hours. Perhaps they also kept the urine for longer than a day. The priests´ use of ephedrine could be more excessive.

The major excretion route of THC is in the faeces, with only 65% of the dose eliminated over 5 days, making it difficult to recycle and unlikely to be a regular part of a religious ritual

[waterdragon]

so you don't put much faith in the fly agaric being the soma? your mix sounds interesting enough to experiment with (assuming it were legal to do so). is there a history of urine drinking in these cultures?

[Torsten]

so who is gonna try it??

who'll be the priest and who the 'parishoners'.

sounds like a game from a porn site

[Adrian]

So are your suggesting to make a golden ray of light you need a couple of fly agarics, a ball of opium, small heap of ephedra, 24hrs and a bucket?

major excretion route of THC is in the faeces...

ahh, well that explains:

"...what's labrador?..."It's dog shit' yeh my dog ate my stash, man.

Had it on the table and the little muthafuka ate it mannn.

So I had to follow him around wit a little baggie for 3 dayz before I got it back, really blew the dogs mind." "You mean we're smoking dogshit man?", "I think it's even better than before, you know" "I wonder what great dane tastes like?"

*Up in Smoke - 1978

[This message has been edited by Adrian (edited 12 April 2002).]

[t st tantra]

interesting unmentioned sidepoint to this topic is the use of epilobium sp as admixture to fly agaric in siberia.epilobium sp now used for prostate and urinary problems!im sure there is a conection there.

t s t .

[Gwydion]

That's an interesting idea, Theobromos, and one that I've encountered before.

It is true that residues of opium, cannabis and ephedra have been found in ritual vessels in early temples. Further, ephedra appears to have held an extremely important position throughout central asia at that time (and before).

An interesting exploration of this is one that I've found in a book called "The Mummies of Urumchi", which deals with the apparently Indo-European inhabitants of Chinese Turkestan and surounds several thousand years ago. Sorry, I can't remember the name of the author at the moment.

Many of these bodies (possibly deliberately buried to be mummified by the action of the desert) were laid to rest with an amount of ephedra sewn into their garments in a little pouch. Often, however, ephedra appears not to have been available, so inactive horsetail lookalikes were used instead.

There is also evidence of a lot of Iranian influence in this area at the time.

I would suggest that the actual constituents of 'soma'/ 'haoma' varied throughout time and space, being in some places more active than others. So whether this means the 'soma' of the Vedas was as you suggest, or whether it was the Fly Agaric; or Syrian Rue, for that matter, I do not know.

Probably there was at least a bit of admixture in some areas, however.

Anyone know what the effect of agaric and ephedra would be?

[Darklight]

I'm neither a linguist nor an historian so correct me if I'm wrong...

Why does Soma have to refer to a specific substance or combination of things. Could the term not have been misinterpreted or mistranslated to a proper noun where perhaps referred to a state of being bought about by a generic set of substances- ie adjectival with reference to a specific ritual situation? In much the same way as ppl today say " We'll just get the gear out and put it in the mix? ". Like I said, I'm barely monolingual, let alone good at translating, but the thought just struck me.

Ditto over time. If the use of what is described as Soma has taken place over a wide area over several thousand years, who's to say it was a physical constant? What we call beer today wasn't what was put in beer 2000 years ago.

Just a thought, no idea as to validity

[Auxin]

Go to the source- The Rig Veda: http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/rigveda/index.htm

Start on BOOK 1 and keep reading until you have made up your mind.

They talk mainly about pressing the soma juice, drinking the soma juice, obtaining somas to press with rocks, etc. The way they talk about it makes it sound like a single plant that is pressed for its narcotic/euphoriant juice and the deep importance they impart to its effects makes it sound strong. I have only read a fraction of the rig veda books, but to me it sounds like 'somas' are unripe poppy pods that are pressed for the juice 'soma', which is then drunk in 'drops' or combined with another liquid as a carrier. Also, given these conditions it seems unlikely that soma was a somewhat dry plant like ephedra or syrian rue. Anyone willing to read all the books and give a more detailed analysis?

[Auxin]

By the way, start with the book books, not the hymn books.

[Darklight]

Thanx for the link Auxin, I'll use it, but my point was about translation. Not knowing either the language it was originally written in or the history of the document and the events it describes means I'll prolly still be guessing. But I've been meaning to read it a while anyhow

[Guest 333]

I'm convinced SOMA = N20 , true air.

[Guest DragonFyre]

well oxygen does get you high!!!

[This message has been edited by DragonFyre (edited 18 April 2002).]

[Guest 333]

It sure does Tyler

[Guest DragonFyre]

Thats Mr. Durdan to you...