Neurochemistry of opiods and opiod addiction

[Darklight]

At last I have something sensible to say...

Coin & I are looking at setting up web pages based around neurotransmitters & their precursors involved in mood changes, drug use etc. Some of it will draw from the discussions here on tryptophan, tyrosine etc.

Basically its a harm-minimisation effort as much as it is a self help thing. But the one thing I am completely clueless on is the neurochemistry of opiod use.

I know opiod receptors are involved, (d'oh) but are any of the precursors we have discussed here useful in the specific treatment of opiod use or addiction? Aside from the collateral damage to serotonin levels etc, which you can get from many sources including depression, is there any receptor specific damage or depletion which can be directly addressed via amino acid or vitamin supplementation?

So far I've identified dopamine, serotonin and nor-adrenaline levels as the ones most important to address. And the common substances affected by their imbalance are the usual suspects....pot, mdma & co, acid, speed & coke, maybe even alcohol. But I hadn't thought of opiods and I don't want to spend the next zillion years reading up unless I have to.

Biopsychiatry.com might have something, but do any of you lot have a paragraph or two that may be useful?

Gosh I feel all clever now

[spiraleyes]

cant help,but look forward to these pages.

[rkundalini]

I don't know but your web search might be more successful if you spell "opioids" correctly (and search for "opiates" too).

Best of luck -- very much looking forward to the pages. I'd also be interested in the relationship between neurotransmitters and compulsive/addictive behaviour (sans substances).

[Darklight]

Yeah OK rk

I checked biopsychiatry.com and the only solid refs were for a whole pile of opioid receptors I couldn't decypher. Also implicated were the acetylcholine, catecholamine, serotonin systems and something called substance P which no-one is quite sure of yet. If I haave to cover those as well we'lll be here for ages...

So more information, in words of one syllable or less, will be greatly appreciated

Re OCD and neurotransmitters...I prolly won't do more than skim over it. I've been postponing dopaminergic stuff til last cos there is just so much stuff to cover, it seems too difficult to edit it down to basics.

Its only meant to be a basic guide, I'm worried that if I don't set it out well it will put ppl off

[spaced]

There are a number of opioid receptors in the CNS. Mu and Kappa receptors immediately come to mind. Different opioids whether they are synthetic or naturally derived will have varying affinities for the different receptors. This may be of importance when chosing to design drugs to stop a cough for instance or to develop highly addictive compounds to supply through government scams to oppressed minorities.

Receptor differentiation combined with the relative potency of the drug and the point it lies between on the agonist and antagonist scale of things will largely dictate the pharmacological effects. Opioid receptors aren't the full story though. Reward and reinforcement theories are now starting to focus on a number of different receptors and brain areas. Conventional theories focus on the nucleus accumbens - the mesolimbic dopaminergic system. The "pleasure producing drug" eg cocaine, cigarettes etc, according to this theory, result in a dopamine release providing an immediate pleasure response, followed by craving. Developing drugs to target this system has however not been greatly successful.

I don't mean to give you a full account of neurotransmitters and addiction. Its a huge field of research and if I have given some idea of the depth involved then I've achieved my goal. You could easily spend your life studying this stuff and many people do - I take my hat off to them.

There are a lot of well informed people in chat rooms like this who could share helpful advice, not if, but when the next psychedelic revolution happens. I really think the government should start paying them just for contributing useful information to the SAB forum, because if the government really wanted to help the "victims" in the so called war on drugs they will realise that the "victims" would have much more respect for people that are actually up to date with current research, rather than someone working behind a desk getting paid to sprout off government propaganda without any appreciation of scientific or journalistic integrity.

"Re OCD and neurotransmitters" - As posted by Darklight.

OCD as in obsessive compulsive disorder? The newer antidepressants are finding some use in this condition, which would suggest that it is caused by a lack of serotonin. I think this is the kind of stuff that shrinks want you to believe and although there is some proof that OCD, depression and anxiety disorders may be linked with catecholamine and serotonin imbalances I don't think it is the full story. The importance of the placebo effect in the efficacy of these drugs is greatly underestimated. Lets not forget that many of the drugs available for the treatment of psychiatric disorders may cause impotence to some extent. Could it be that the pharmaceutical companies actually want to breed the "mentally ill" out of existance? I hope not because that will leave us with mindless 9-5 automatons with no emotions. If you read Andrew Weils 1995 book "spontaneous healing(?)" he suggests that those people capable of experiencing great sorrow are also capable of experiencing great joy. Why let medication get in the way of this process?

With the "1 in 5 rate of mental illness" you have to wonder if its all due to an imbalance in neurotransmitters or society or maybe just a narrowed definition of so called "normality" by the psychiatric profession.

I wish you all the best with your project although it does sound like quite a task.

[Guest ziebonka]

I own a copy of a book called "A Primer of Drug Action" edition #8 and it has a very informative chapter on opioid analgesics which would contain exactly the sort of information you are looking for. I suggest you borrow a copy of this book from a library. It is very good and it also has info on a lot of other drugs too.

[theobromos]

I find PubMed very useful if I am needing to skim some abstracts to get a general idea of the latest research. I think alcohol was definitely shown to have an indirect opioid receptor effect.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov:80/entrez/quer....fcgi?db=PubMed

[tryptaminer]

Id be very intersted in a website relating to neurotransmitters and the effects psychoactives have on them, especially DXM, I have heard from many users, some saying their brain is "mush", some suicidal, some have had no effect. I find this very interested and I would like to know how DXM effects the seratonin reputake.

- trypt

[gomaos]

I also have an important question:

In Erowid's DXM Faq it says that people should, when taking DXM, not touch any MAOIs 3 weeks prior and 3 weeks after using Dextrometorphan.

Now it is known that AMT is a mild MAOI...does this mean that you would be extremely negatively affected when taking AMT, say 2 days after DXM?

And yes, it has something to do with opioids, since DXM originally was meant to be a Codeine substitute...

[This message has been edited by gomaos (edited 09 October 2001).]

[tryptaminer]

DXM is a synthetic opioid, so its similar to Codeine in that respect. From my DXM friends in the US, MAOIs and Antihistimines should be avoided if possible before and after doing DXM with at least 3 weeks between use. A friend had DXM a week after an Antihistimine and it was all weird and unpleasant he said.

From my experience I have found that mixing alcahol with DXM is not good, at the time it gets you hammered, totally spaces you out with euphoria up your ass, but with noticable long term effects.

I was reading about the "seratonin syndrome" from use of acohol and DXM together, if anyone has any information on "seratonin syndrome" itd be greatly appreciated, its supposed to cause too much of a reputake of seratonin, how that can be bad would be complicated I would imagine, but it said that seratonin syndrome can be life threatening if not treated.

peace

- trypt

[gomaos]

Ok but where does AMT fit into all this? Should it be treated as a true MAOI or is it not as bad?

[Guest ziebonka]

If I am allergic to codeine am I likely to be allergic to DXM?

[tryptaminer]

ziebonka:

I think that it is possible but less likely, because DXM replaces Codeine because it was more usuable, thats if you only have 30ml

gomaos:

Unfortunately there isnt much info on AMT, its a research chemical, try looking up TiHKAL, it has in depth info on basically every known tryptamine.

- trypt

[spaced]

Originally posted by tryptaminer:

From my experience I have found that mixing alcahol with DXM is not good, at the time it gets you hammered, totally spaces you out with euphoria up your ass, but with noticable long term effects.

Hits the G spot does it?

I was reading about the "seratonin syndrome" from use of acohol and DXM together, if anyone has any information on "seratonin syndrome" itd be greatly appreciated, its supposed to cause too much of a reputake of seratonin, how that can be bad would be complicated I would imagine, but it said that seratonin syndrome can be life threatening if not treated.

More like too little of an uptake of serotonin. Serotonin syndrome is caused by mixing together various drugs which increase serotonin levels, particularly antidepressants. This leads to a synergistic effect. As dextromethorphan inhibits the reuptake of serotonin, amongst other things, it could predispose someone to the condition, if used in high doses or when mixed with other serotonin elevating drugs - not excluding the over the counter antidepressant St John's wort.

Serotonin syndrome is more one of those "hyped up" conditions - high blood pressure, sweating and increased body temperature. I don't know how alcohol could contribute to the condition as I'm not sure as to how it influences serotonin levels. One thing worth keeping in mind is that DXM comes from the opioid family. Although it has only mild opioid effects, the associated CNS depression (more so with high dose) may be augmented by consumption with alcohol and this could be dangerous.

[tryptaminer]

Spaced,

I have in the past, mixed DXM with many drugs.

Are you aware of any ways to treat seratonin syndrome? As simple as taking L-Tryptophan? I have read about treatment, but I cant remember what it said, it might have been see your doctor heh

peace

- trypt

[spaced]

Yes, probably a visit to the nearest hospital emergency department would be a good idea.

Another important consideration is the MAO inhibitors which could also interact with DXM, antidepressants etc to bring about the serotonin syndrome.

It may take a few weeks before antidepressants are cleared from the body and so during this time it is still possible to have interactions with other substances which increase serotonin levels. The older MAOI antidepressants are known to have this after effect but I don't know if the beta carbolines (harmine, harmaline etc) would have such a prolonged effect.

There are many known and potential drug interactions to look out for. Information concerning legal medical drugs is easy enough to come by but often scarce when dealing with the more exotic plant derived compounds. However, if people are prepared to do their home work, rather than gulping down a batch of anonymously labeled green pills in an alcohol induced "why the fuck not?" frame of mind then they are more likely to survive the ordeal.

As for treating the side effects of a drug interaction with another drug rather than removing the drug that caused the problem in the first place - well, that's the basis of the medical establishment.

[tryptaminer]

Yeh, I havent done DXM in over 6 months, and I feel better every day, MJ helps as well

- trypt