Progress in Syrian Rue cultivation?...

[Illustro]

Saludo!

Mi amigo Pablo wishes to understand cultivation of Syrian Rue better, for educational purposes . He has been googling el culo off trying to find out why this plant is so tricky. There's been some speculation of pH being the limiting factor, that these plants love alkaline soils; ver aqui:

http://www.shaman-australis.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=12349

There's been some hablar and some success stories attributed post-hoc to high pH, but nothing solid so far.. What I wanna know is, has anyone given alkaline mixes a go? Any success stories or other new developments?

Muchas gracias!

Edited April 16, 2013 by Illustro

[obtuse]

hola ;)

The best success i have had with syrian rue, was with not very good soil from my backyard, but i suspect say from the side of a road would do well too.

I use takeaway containers intiailly to germinate, in a window sill using the disturbed soil. For me they germinate readily, and pot them up while they have their first few sets lot of trident leaves.

They really dont like being transplaned so make it a big pot, not like a seedling pot.

I have never analysed pH, so cannot help you on that, but the takeaway container method works a treat for me. My understanding is that they a weedy along the sides of roads, and love disturbed soil, and where they they get occassional water but not all the time.

Best of luck.

Obtuse.

[Illustro]

Hola!

Very interesting, great to hear some first-hand info! Do you happen to live in an area with alkaline soils? Most central and/or regional governments have online interactive soil maps with a soil pH layer.

I just don't get it why they're supposedly so hard to grow. So many people seem to have so many problems with them! Almost seems like a waste of time from what I've heard. But there's gotta be some glaring oversight, was hoping people might have shown that pH was it? If it's high humidity that kills 'em as some have hypothesized, Pablo is kinda fucked. He lives in the jungle, so his plants will need huge efforts to protect them from the rain and humidity, and them pesky monkeys. He's praying to Pachamama to look kindly on his efforts.

Gracias!

[planthelper]

Hola!

If it's high humidity that kills 'em as some have hypothesized, Pablo is kinda fucked. He lives in the jungle, so his plants will need huge efforts to protect them from the rain and humidity, and them pesky monkeys. He's praying to Pachamama to look kindly on his efforts.

Gracias!

hola gringo illustro!

yep, I think it's humidity which kills them, and have given up on it.

I think to remember, where they grow as a weed in oz, is the dry parts of sa.

[veritas]

I have them growing in my normal backyard soil. They did grow quite big once transplanted but seemed to die off after about 3 months but are now starting to throw new shoots so I am hoping they are a bit more hardy this time around. I also threw a whole bunch of seeds into some soil as a rat had got into the bag and eaten half and now 2 weeks later I have at least 50 seedlings with me doing nothing. We have had some rain in that time though

[Auxin]

I've toyed with growing this plant repeatedly.

They germinate readily in pure perlite so they dont need highly alkaline conditions when grown indoors, but they seem to hate transplanting, humidity, and too much water. All indoor attempts failed.

Later I tried them outdoors in native alkaline loam in semi-arid conditions. The soil is about pH 8 to start, in one spot I added limestone and dolomitic limestone and the other spot was unaltered. The seeds in the limestone/dolomite spot had like 8 times the germination rate as the other spot. None survived tho, I suspect because they were too near to a black walnut tree (or because my neighbor got too frisky when spraying herbicide).

Eleven months ago I tried again, this time in my garden in almost unimproved native soil, low organic content, pH around 8, I mixed in just limestone in both spots and stirred in seed to a depth of about 5 mm. I used 7 year old seed and got many seedlings in both spots. I largely ignored it except watering it about once a week (it rains 1 cm per month here in the summer).

They survived my dryish (2-3 cm rain/month) abnormally warm (-11°C lowest-lows) winter and are now growing vigorously, success at last

Edited April 23, 2013 by Auxin

[endorfinder]

I kept a few alive for 3 months, one alive for 4 months, but what started as a whole lot of seedlings didn't turn into a plant bigger than 2" :/

[theuserformallyknownasd00d]

I got 1 year into cultivation with a plant then it died from a shitty transplant.

I originally sowed 2 seeds (I didn't wanna fuss over several plants) in a 50% sand 50% sifted seed raising mix. the germinating seed was watered (from below, thoroughly an quite deep) 2 days after the surface turned crusted and was originally sowed into a 100mm pot.

When I went to a 175mm pot with a more organic mix everything turned to shit and it was gone within 3 weeks due to rot.

I'd suggest giving my original mix and sowing method a go if your serious about this plant. Come to think of it ima gonna sow some more soon as I find my bag o sand

Edited April 23, 2013 by thed00dabides

[Mycot]

With rue you don't want to be messing around with single seeds in single pots as the result will likely be failure.

What one ought to do is sow many seeds on the surface by a light sprinkle.

Many seedlings will sprout and many will die but the strongest plants that have competed with the others will be ones that you will have success with.

This ought to be a trade secret.

[Scarecrow]

With rue you don't want to be messing around with single seeds in single pots as the result will likely be failure.

What one ought to do is sow many seeds on the surface by a light sprinkle.

Many seedlings will sprout and many will die but the strongest plants that have competed with the others will be ones that you will have success with.

This ought to be a trade secret.

sapling v. sapling

[theuserformallyknownasd00d]

I tend to agree with mycot, but if you know your seeds are fresh and have the tek down, you won't be disappointed. Just remember plenty of fresh air exchange if grown indoors, a free draining soil, and water once the top soil has dried for a day or two

D00d

[obtuse]

I got 1 year into cultivation with a plant then it died from a shitty transplant.

I originally sowed 2 seeds (I didn't wanna fuss over several plants) in a 50% sand 50% sifted seed raising mix. the germinating seed was watered (from below, thoroughly an quite deep) 2 days after the surface turned crusted and was originally sowed into a 100mm pot.

When I went to a 175mm pot with a more organic mix everything turned to shit and it was gone within 3 weeks due to rot.

I'd suggest giving my original mix and sowing method a go if your serious about this plant. Come to think of it ima gonna sow some more soon as I find my bag o sand

Yep shitty transplants kill em. They love really sandy mixes in my experience, i was using greater than 50%

With rue you don't want to be messing around with single seeds in single pots as the result will likely be failure.

What one ought to do is sow many seeds on the surface by a light sprinkle.

Many seedlings will sprout and many will die but the strongest plants that have competed with the others will be ones that you will have success with.

This ought to be a trade secret.

yes 1/4 or even 1/2 teaspoon at a time, just be ok with thinning and letting die. I still swear by takeaway food container method, but as mentioned at a point you have to remove lid as they dont like humidity, and then stright into the pot you want them to grow in.

Illustro, Sorry know nothing about my soil mix. what i used would not be the reported soil type as per websites.

Auxin, hey, how are you. Hope your well.

Some good posts here. should help you out no end getting these going.

Cheers, Ob.

[Illustro]

Interesting interesting! Well, Pablo thought he was somehow above the problems of others, appears not as he just got bitch slapped by reality; only after a few days some seedlings have anomalously flopped over...catastrophic damping off it appears. The mix was shit, weather too shit, the water shit too. It was a whim mini experiment, nothing cereal. He has decided to try again once the weather warms up, and use rain water(!!!). Pablo clicked that maybe its the water which is giving our lil rue buddies a bad time? As its well established, well, its well rabbled, that rue is highly susceptible to fungal pathogens, then water is one glaring oversight! So, breakthrough! Instead of using full strength water, Pablo mixed his instant water sachet to 1/10 instead of 1/4 strength. Ha, nah, just being a dick... :D

But yeah nah yeah, Siriusly, that reticulated shit (i.e. tap water) comes from reservoirs LADEN with scummy crap like water molds (i.e. Phytophthora, ie 'damping off'), maybe them damn commie bastards are a cause of trouble? Luckily, rainwater is free of water molds. Is that the variable correlating with success? Using rainwater? Hmm.

[gwalchgwyn]

My experience is not intentional but observational. This plant grows near my clime by the highway. the soil is very alkaline. winter nights dip into the 20s (F). moderate winter precip, wet summers. along with the plastic grocery bags, soda pop bottles, tire rippings, etc, that adorn the highway, these plants actually benefit from the immense highway/shoulder mower that appears to only encourage root growth. Originally introduced for dye, it well appears that this consciousness awaits a new human culture to arrive and appreciate.

[Illustro]

Intriguing stuff gwalchgwyn, I think I speak for everyone when I say I'd love to see some pics!

Ha, holy crap, just re-read my post above, I should really avoid posting while under the influence!

Update time:

Well, apparently it turns out the source of Pablo's problems was actually a lack of water...he checked the mix and it was actually dry, despite appearing moist on the surface. After a small watering, most of the seedlings came right back but some were stunted by a collapsed hypcotyl (the seedling stem) and never recovered fully. The first leaves are beginning to appear on the ones that came back fully, will keep y'all updated. Also, with his remaining seeds, in the next few weeks Pablo is gonna start a wee experiment with different substrates (alkaline mineral vs acidic organic) and water sources (reticulated vs rainwater). Again, will keep you posted on his results!

[sascacheuan]

Hello gwalchgwyn.

I am searching a rare native peganum from North America, its called peganum mexicanum and grows int Texas and New Mexico.

Have you ever seen over there??.

http://plants.usda.gov/java/profile?symbol=PEME

http://www.worldbotanical.com/peganum.htm

I search this specie long ago.

Illustro, you must to use fungicide, the most common cause of early death of peganum seedlings are produced by fungus. Put your seedlings to direct sun, and when you water it, dont wet the little stem. Water next to stem but never wet it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damping_off

[Illustro]

Don't even mention fungicide to me! Fungi are my babies! They are so crucial to plant health, it blows my mind people would want to actually kill them with these disgusting toxic chemicals! Most fungal problems are simply the result of poor cultural methods, ie, human laziness/oversight/ignorance such as poor draining mix. The two major species which cause the majority of damping off actually come from tap water! Pythium and Phytophora literally live in water reservoirs, and despite chlorination, you still introduce them to your plants when you water them. That's why I'm using tap and rain water treatments, as fresh rainwater is free of damping off, as well as being a lower pH than tap water (frees cations from exchange sites in the soil = good for plant nutrition).

[sascacheuan]

Spores of pythium or Phytophora are like Matrix, they are everywhere. They are in the air you breathe, on your dress, floating in front of your eyes....

Peganum are the most sensible specie i have seen to soil fungus. Its like a canary in a mine.

[Mycot]

Spores of pythium or Phytophora are like Matrix, they are everywhere. They are in the air you breathe, on your dress, floating in front of your eyes....

Peganum are the most sensible specie i have seen to soil fungus. Its like a canary in a mine.

Peganum is not hard. Sow the seeds after winter so they can grow a bit before the next winter by which time the roots will be thick enough to survive it. This is critical . No thickness, no life.

What you want are styrofoam boxes of a very sandy really free-draining mix.

If roots get really large and thick, they can be further propagated from root cuttings.

Also the roots may be harvested for harmala alkaloids.

After they've grown past seedling stage they can handle the outdoors very well.

Bear in mind that peganum may die off durung the winter months to reshoot again in spring.

Edited May 7, 2013 by Mycot

[ghosty]

best ifound was using ash from the firepit in the house. they seem to like it. i tried that after somebody told me they like a carbon source. some people use suger though i have not tried it. i got my plants to about 10 inches as the best so far. i gave up on them, yet again, and let them die off. id love to grow them myself as they are hard to find and i like to burn them for incense that helps me to get to sleep. so far, these buggers have caused me nothing but stress. one day i will find what makes them grow and win, untill that time, im taking a break from them.. i bet is has something to do with soil more than PH etc. like the granite wattle only grows with granite, i feel this plant has similar requirments. will keep you all posted on any findings in future.

[Mycot]

In Australia peganum really grows well in South Australia just north from Port Augusta and small regens down the Flinders ranges towards Gawler.

Although its pretty sandy round Port Augusta the Harmala seems grouped around arterial basins.

The plant also grows in the middle east. Again a really sandy habitat.

Also grows through much of southern US. Sand again.

Try to replicate these conditions.

Edited May 8, 2013 by Mycot

[weedRampage]

suggest trying small amounds of lime and/or gypsum and/or table salt

plants from arid areas are evolved to cope with high osmotic soil water potentials

the complex water extracting strategy means that your seedling is literally capable

of shlurping a 747 through a drinking straw

the pressures are equal to millions of kilograms per square metre

in the absence of the osmotic potential the plants cells swell and rupture

some goosefoot family crops like beetroot will give and increased yield

with the addition of table salt.

[mutant]

in my limited experience, all xerophytic plants are somewhat stuborn [peganum, ephedra, acacia] and hard to get past the seedling stage.

or I haven't yet figured out their thing

all I have to say is they grow much better by mistake than by meaningful manipulation.

SO maybe the best idea is to throw some seeds around. Peganum seeds are cheap, so..

I reckon the best seeason for this is the upcoming winter, for warm places like zone 9 + 10.

by spring, they might be strong enough to make it through the hot summer.

Some mates have succeeded with those outside, in ruins and archeological sites, in northern greece.

[planthelper]

suggest trying small amounds of lime and/or gypsum and/or table salt

plants from arid areas are evolved to cope with high osmotic soil water potentials

the complex water extracting strategy means that your seedling is literally capable

of shlurping a 747 through a drinking straw

the pressures are equal to millions of kilograms per square metre

in the absence of the osmotic potential the plants cells swell and rupture

some goosefoot family crops like beetroot will give and increased yield

with the addition of table salt.

wau, I never saw it like that, but this is surly amazing to think of.

plants are amazing, I wonder how the plants actual do this, even more so a seedling.

osmotic force is a strong force, and chemic speaking, the seedling would have to be more salty than the soil, but I am speculating, that it is not.

so how does the plant do this?

it must have a trick up it's sleeve.

everything humans invented and found out, they copied from nature, now the dark ages continue, where plants are made forbidden for most of us to enjoy...

layman, are excluded from researching plants, but the gods in white, are still allowed to work with illegal plants, what a hypocrisy!

[weedRampage]

No plant will grow in a salt scald where the saline ground water is close enough to the surface to carry salt upwards as the water evaporates from the soil. The spots where the ground water is deeper or there is enough vegetation to slow evaporation at the soil surface the level of salt is low enough for plants to grow. Salt rains down from the sky in all places blown from the surface of the ocean up into the atmosphere. In arid places where the outflow of this salt is lower than the inflow it accumulates. During ice ages when the level of the ocean drops the intense wind picks up large amounts of carbonates, chlorides and sulfates from the ocean floor and blows them all over the place. There is probably some ideal watering mix using small amounts of salts. Maybe it is worth trying mineral water. One without the bubbles. They usually have a mineral analysis on the bottle.