Herbal Health

[Auxin]

Ok coin, I didnt realize you were referring to fermented herbal decoctions.

My governments been telling people to start drinking lately 'for health reasons' so I thought along those lines, lol.

I've heard references to those medicinal wines before, but it was never entirely clear- is it solely for the sake of preservation and ease of dosing or does the fermentation alter the pharmacological effects of some medicines in a key way?

If the later, is there some net resource on the topic of altering herbal drug effects by fermentation?

Are any drugs lacto-fermented to change them?

This could be a whole thread- lol.

[coin]

I see "the damage done" with alcohol a lot (and I'm an ex alco with a family full of it) & i think we probably both feel the same way when the health benefits of red wine, etc, are espoused...these benefits, obviously, shouldn't encourage someone to start drinking! but whether it's herbal or otherwise, 1 standard drink daily is good in my book, unless 1 leads to 5. most people i would just recommend to cut out the alcohol....same with coffee. i hope we won't have to debate coffee then on to soy, once we're done with alcohol and coffe. forget any health claims...nothing makes up for the damage. One of the reasons I "recommend" people to drink is because they are surprised by this -- then I stipulate the amount. There are contraindications.

it is ease of dosing because the decoction is done & preserved..(also solubility is a factor)...there is an element of compliancy...also it's an excellent delivery for "nervines"...these "wines" are really good for digestion...

I mostly like to recommend these medicines to elderly clients. Ashwagandharishta, Balarishta, Saraswatarishta (withania somnifera, sida cordifolia, centella asiatica being the primary ingredients, respectively)...they also include things like cardamom, cinnamon, cloves, etc. Alcohol content is 4-15%. Dosage is 15-30ml with equal amount warm water, to be taken during or after eating. The old folks love these medicines...they are not typically using digestive spices in cooking. They are feeling calmer. better circulation, having less gas & bloating, easier BMs

you can get people taking equivalent of 15g herbs, 2-3 times daily, where if they were consuming the whole powdered herbs they would be having troubles like diarrhea, cramping, gas, etc.

when prescribing powdered herbs, my standard max dose is 5g, 2-3 times daily, stirred into boiling water, then left to cool to a tolerable temperature.

"does the fermentation alter the pharmacological effects" this does play a part but is not primary...this has been studied with the product arjunarishta (a herbal wine based on Terminalia arjuna - arjuna bark) ... good science, when it comes to ayurveda, is pretty thin ... current ayurveda study in india (which includes proficiency in western anatomy and physiology) requires this sort of research but from what i've seen, there are never proper double blind studies, and they are really small sample sizes. so to answer your question - no, i don't think there are significant pharmacological changes, but it may play a part in specific preparations.

I can't think of any examples for lacto-fermentation...do you know of some traditional examples? In the preparation of these ayurvedic fermented products, they use dried dhataki flowers (Woodfordia fruticosa) and raisins as the source of saccharomyces. Do you think there is some lacto activity here? I have replicated some of these traditional recipes, and I just use champagne yeast, mostly because I have never seen a Woodfordia. I think it has some significant immunomodulatory activity, but I see it as a source of yeast. I have also used vodka with macerated raisins and a reduced amount of organic jaggery.

Edited February 26, 2013 by coin

[Sallubrious]

Ok coin, I didnt realize you were referring to fermented herbal decoctions.

My governments been telling people to start drinking lately 'for health reasons' so I thought along those lines, lol.

I've heard references to those medicinal wines before, but it was never entirely clear- is it solely for the sake of preservation and ease of dosing or does the fermentation alter the pharmacological effects of some medicines in a key way?

If the later, is there some net resource on the topic of altering herbal drug effects by fermentation?

Are any drugs lacto-fermented to change them?

This could be a whole thread- lol.

A lot of pharmaceutical preparations are produced by fermentation. Some amino acids decarboxylate to form amines and sometimes even tryptamines during fermentation. I haven't found much data on biological transformations in herbal preparations but I've seen it suggested that fermentation makes many herbal medicines more bio-active and more potent.

I see "the damage done" with alcohol a lot (and I'm an ex alco with a family full of it) & i think we probably both feel the same way when the health benefits of red wine, etc, are espoused...these benefits, obviously, shouldn't encourage someone to start drinking! but whether it's herbal or otherwise, 1 standard drink daily is good in my book, unless 1 leads to 5. most people i would just recommend to cut out the alcohol....same with coffee. i hope we won't have to debate coffee then on to soy, once we're done with alcohol and coffe. forget any health claims...nothing makes up for the damage. One of the reasons I "recommend" people to drink is because they are surprised by this -- then I stipulate the amount. There are contraindications.

it is ease of dosing because the decoction is done & preserved..(also solubility is a factor)...there is an element of compliancy...also it's an excellent delivery for "nervines"...these "wines" are really good for digestion...

I mostly like to recommend these medicines to elderly clients. Ashwagandharishta, Balarishta, Saraswatarishta (withania somnifera, sida cordifolia, centella asiatica being the primary ingredients, respectively)...they also include things like cardamom, cinnamon, cloves, etc. Alcohol content is 4-15%. Dosage is 15-30ml with equal amount warm water, to be taken during or after eating. The old folks love these medicines...they are not typically using digestive spices in cooking. They are feeling calmer. better circulation, having less gas & bloating, easier BMs

you can get people taking equivalent of 15g herbs, 2-3 times daily, where if they were consuming the whole powdered herbs they would be having troubles like diarrhea, cramping, gas, etc.

when prescribing powdered herbs, my standard max dose is 5g, 2-3 times daily, stirred into boiling water, then left to cool to a tolerable temperature.

"does the fermentation alter the pharmacological effects" this does play a part but is not primary...this has been studied with the product arjunarishta (a herbal wine based on Terminalia arjuna - arjuna bark) ... good science, when it comes to ayurveda, is pretty thin ... current ayurveda study in india (which includes proficiency in western anatomy and physiology) requires this sort of research but from what i've seen, there are never proper double blind studies, and they are really small sample sizes. so to answer your question - no, i don't think there are significant pharmacological changes, but it may play a part in specific preparations.

I can't think of any examples for lacto-fermentation...do you know of some traditional examples? In the preparation of these ayurvedic fermented products, they use dried dhataki flowers (Woodfordia fruticosa) and raisins as the source of saccharomyces. Do you think there is some lacto activity here? I have replicated some of these traditional recipes, and I just use champagne yeast, mostly because I have never seen a Woodfordia. I think it has some significant immunomodulatory activity, but I see it as a source of yeast. I have also used vodka with macerated raisins and a reduced amount of organic jaggery.

We touched on this the other day in Bogfrogs' thread about Kefir.

Dom's Kefir site outlines methods to ferment herbal preparations with kefir (which is very high in multiple lactobacillus species & yeast) on his site, he states that the fermentation makes the herbal preparations much more potent.

http://users.chariot.net.au/~dna/Makekefir.html#Kefir-d-erba

Edited February 27, 2013 by SallyD

[theuserformallyknownasd00d]

Not entirely herbal, but a natural help for sore joints/knees. I was my current height (5'11") when I was 13 years old. I grew way to much and had old man symptons by 16! I LOL now I look back, I litterally hobbled worse than my grandfather! I also had a rough and tumble upbringing on a farm, which surely didn't help..!

My remedy as outlined by a bone doctor was to stretch! Vertical planking for upwards of 10 minutes a day strengthens so many muscles, and fixes them over time. I recently threw my back out whilst lifting a ride on off a ute and after 1 day of planking 30 seconds each 30mins tightened my muscles and it healed in half the time of a doctors visit. I only just remembered vertical planking as my mother reminded me when I was complaining if aching back, knees and feet.

You might also need to try some blooding moving excerses or change your "relaxation" couch position! Our pain often comes on during these times purely because we have our feet up and blood pumping slow ;)

A good intro to herbal medicine is "encyclopaedia of natural medicine" by Michael Murray and Joseph Pizzorno, covers every ailment we can treat ourselves in the western world!

[theuserformallyknownasd00d]

Also if this pain happens after extended period of squating over pots etc as happens with me, I will wager it's a blood circulation issue mixed with tight muscles.... STRETCH!!!

Edited to add DIET! I won't weigh in on meat vs veg, but as pointed out above, liquid sunshine ie juiced greens will give your body so much goodness to help fight the build up of toxins in joints etc. ginger is anti inflaming regarding joints and taste great in a recipe such as;

(All freshly juiced)

Orange juice

Grapefruit

Ginger

Spinach

Rocket

Cauliflower leaf

Wheat grass

You won't taste the greens, and the citrus works beautifully with ginger! It's the funkiest green fruit juice ever!

Edited February 26, 2013 by thed00dabides

[bogfrog]

Just wanna say i am following and cherishing this thread, there's so much fantastic information i cant think of anything to say so i am just going to be a passive sponge for a while and absorb what i can of this.

You are an incredible group of very wise and unique individuals, and thats all i can say

Thank you all

[theuserformallyknownasd00d]

Ditto boggy

[theuserformallyknownasd00d]

Apple cider vinegar - for everything. except maybe an apple cider vinegar overdose, but I'd assume more apple cider vinegar would fix that too.

Works a treat for head lice (with tea tree or eucy oil) too! Also good as an all round hair shampoo and conditioner. It's PH is perfect for happy, silky, smooth hair. C wat I did dere ;-P

[Auxin]

I can't think of any examples for lacto-fermentation...do you know of some traditional examples? In the preparation of these ayurvedic fermented products, they use dried dhataki flowers (Woodfordia fruticosa) and raisins as the source of saccharomyces. Do you think there is some lacto activity here?

Could be, but with significant sugar yeast would dominate.

I can think of a few lactos- Sceletium is lacto-fermented and its been shown to alter the mesembrine alks. Heimia 'sun brewing' likely involves bacteria and seems to alter effect. Yucca glauca root is lactofermented and made into foam and the foam is eaten to induce menopause (boy I bet someone was surprised when they discovered that one). I feel like I should be remembering an asian one... oh well.

Lacto-ferments for medicine preservation or extraction is something I've been curious to experiment with but the situations just havent converged right yet.

[coin]

1/4 t apple cider vinegar

1 t lime juice

1 t honey

1 c warm water

each morning, 30 mins before food, can be very helpful for gout

adding a capsule of guduchi (Tinospora cordifolia) makes it even better

[coin]

I like 1-2 drops of jatamansi (spikenard) oil on to the tongue to calm anxiety/nerves and help a little with sleep

[coin]

1 t coriander seed

1/2 t fennel seed

1/4 t cumin seed

crushed and infused into cold water, overnight, then strained and taken as tea in the morning, is very helpful for cystitis

add 1/2 t tribulus powder or a tribulus capsule, to make it more effective

1 t of l-mannose can be enhanced by the above tea

[mindperformer]

did you take undiluted essential oil of jatamansi/spikenard? its indeed a good sedative

[coin]

yes, undiluted. it's my new favorite oil...relaxing & not too sedating (at the dose mentioned). I'm finding it more effective than fresh ground root powder, but I may be absorbing it better because I swipe the oil drops under my tongue. Or it could be difference in source. Root is from organic Indian farm, oil is steam distilled from Nepal (if I remember correctly)

[planthelper]

coin, i'm intrigued by this jatamansi (spikenard) oil, can give a recommanded source?

[mindperformer]

here is a ebay-auction of organic Spikenard-oil from cultivation:

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/320972124942

Mine is also from Primavera and it really has high quality

[planthelper]

i don't do, e bay, and can't find primavera web site, and can't decipher the brand name on the bottle either.

have you got a web shop url, for this product?

surely good for many of us, sounds almost too good, instant anxiety relieve, and this for little money!

[coin]

I got mine from New Directions

http://www.newdirections.com.au

I don't have the bottle with the label right now, so I can't remember exactly which one I got. I think it was the 'green' variety. I'll confirm that when I can, if you want.

Ayurveda recommends jatamansi above valerian, when a lighter calming effect is needed. It's very helpful for meditation, especially with herbs like bacopa, centella, shankhapushpi. It's also said to improve the memory. Whereas valerian would be used (the Indian plant known as 'tagar') to provide heavier sedation in more severe nervous disorders/hysteria, trouble sleeping, etc. They can be used together

There are a few times I've taken a couple of drops, feeling a bit anxious & exhausted, and laid down supine to do some breath focusing, and have moved into a very much improved, positive state, much more deeply & more quickly than I might usually. Just a subjective report there. It can feel subtly healing, in that way. It synergises well with things like theanine, tryptophan & melatonin.

I'm sure export of root material from India was restricted or banned up until fairly recently, but there are now some good fair trade, organic, herb farming projects providing many traditional herbs.

Edited March 4, 2013 by coin

[mindperformer]

mistrust ebay?

no, sry, I have no webshop url, I bought it in a shop long time ago, the Newdirections-link is interesting but I can't find the word "cultivated" in the description of the Spikenard oil,

...they have only added some organic-certificates for all products.

Edited March 5, 2013 by mindperformer

[coin]

Indian whole root/powder, organic cultivated, I'm talking about a different source.

Edited March 6, 2013 by coin

[coin]

A little late reply, but the oil I bought is Spikenard Green Oil (OE6SPIKGREE)

[Thelema]

I second glucosamine, chondroitin and MSM. I also second the stretches and getting a better pair of shoes if you're standing a lot during the day.

[coin]

The USA-made New Balance runners are awesome....(sorry, not herbal health)

[ghosty]

i thin good old gloriosa suberba is good for that isnt it? sory, didnt read all this thread as im currently burning of crap in the garden )garden scraps) while cooking dinner. i was flabergassted to see so much of this plant growing on the beach at bribie island the other day. it looks like its ready to take over our land bigtime! anyhow, be carfull with that plant if you choose to work with it. it is killer if dealt with with less caution than it requires. i think i read some place once that it is very good for just such complaints.

Edited April 3, 2013 by ghosty

[Thelema]

Also, dunno what your work schedule is like but it sounds like you might need a good 7 days in bed...