Help a klepto

[bogfrog]

After doing a bit of reading, it has become very clear to me that my mother is a kleptomaniac, someone who compulsively steals.

The things she takes arent worth a high monetry value and she doesnt steal from shops, but she steals from her workplace and her family.

When i lived with her, things just dissappeared all the time, my skin products, make up, smoking utensils, MJ, knick-nacks, clothing, plants.. Nothing that really mattered to me but its the principal that counts.

I had a concerned family member bring it up with me one day and he said that all my aunts and uncles have had things go missing when my mum is about.

I know that she has been harshly confronted about it before but she has convinced herself that its not harmful and does not matter.. But having lost the trust of my family would matter to me, so i feel like i have to show her some how that it does matter and she needs to make a change.

I have brought it up several times and told her off for it but she just keeps stealing.

Can anyone help me work out how to get the message through to her?

[Distracted]

Cut off her hands.

I really don't have any more valuable input on this topic sorry

[CβL]

I wish I knew how to show people they need to change, but as far as I know, it's always very difficult and time consuming. I would be careful in the future confronting her, because I've noticed that confrontations with my own mother about her not-so-good habits - never end well. She just changes the subject, and stops talking about it, or pretends to listen. Then it seems the next day or so as if I've never said anything, and it just seems to be moving backwards. The best approach I've had is to talk to my mum in a place other than the home, somewhere newish and comfortable (i.e. we went to the beach). That way the subconscious idea of hiding, isn't there (you feel you can hide at home, physically as well as mentally). Me and my brother talked to her there, and we tried to explain how her thoughts were hurting us. We also asked a lot of questions - asking questions is a way to keep the other person from shutting their brain down (if they feel threatened - even if you're telling the 100% truth, they will often stop listening and go into defense mode, where it's about "winning arguments" to them). And we got a lot further than usual, but nothing revelatory.

Ultimately if you can get her to admit that her behaviour is selfish, mean, and that she cannot control herself and needs help - then that's a really good outcome, as you can latch onto it, and if you can make sure she never forgets it - that'll go a long way towards getting better.

Another approach would be to gather some "material evidence", which is really undeniable. This would probably be video footage in your case. I'm unsure if it's a good idea or not - some people would take it as a personal attack, others would see that you had to go to such great lengths to show them their own behaviour, and realize that enough is enough (kind of how Lance Armstrong only decided to confess when he heard his son defending him).

Something strange I thought of is to try and get her to give away a lot of her stuff. Or even destroying it. Hoarding too many things keeps you stuck on the ground, and getting rid of them - is extremely empowering. I think that if you have nothing by the time you die, because you gave it all away as you got older - is a definition of success. You actually don't have "nothing", you traded things for happiness and memories. Considering you're dead when your will gets read out, why not give it away yourself so you can see the joy? It's also more meaningful to be given something, than to take it from a dead body (essentially).

I hope you manage to sort it out. But the biggest advice I can give is to keep calm, and don't get angry (you can get upset, but getting angry will turn on her defence systems). Good luck, and I hope you can come to some agreement with your mum.

Edited January 30, 2013 by CβL

[coin]

Always have to identify what is centrally important to someone and then relate to them how their negative behaviors are turning them away from those values. For some people the values are actually just things like a nice house, or being successful in business, etc. Usually it's better to generate motivation this way than to judge or change someone's values.

People that are complacent, oblivious, lack self awareness, or abide in the comfort of self justification, usually need some "shock treatment." Shake them up, so suddenly their life changes and they have to wake up to look around. (This approach isn't suitable for people who have a poor sense of self, low self esteem, or significant anxiety).

Another approach is "look in the mirror and see what you've become".

It's always better if people want to change themselves, and actually ask for help if they need it. But she probably won't do that because right now there are no real consequences. Maybe you, or someone in the family, need to create some consequences?

[bogfrog]

Thanks for the replies, you have both made really excellent points and helped my planning alot.

I have to be careful becuase she is a very anxious person with very low self-esteem and alot of pent up guilt and regrets. I dont want to be cruel because I am almost the only person she has now.

The strangest thing is, she is an extremely generous person, although somehow her perception of reality has warped around itself to make her think that its ok to steal from people that she loves.

Thats a very good idea CBL, talking about things away from home, mothers are highly complex beings who can be extremely hard to get through to.

I was sort of thinking that i could set her up in a way. Find something that i know she wouldn't be able to resist and leave it somewhere that she would have an opportunity to take it. If she did take it, i could mention that i was looking for it and see how she reponds. Stealing usually leads to lying, doesn't it. If she didn't tell me, i would have to find it at her house, and then i could confront her about it and tell her that i had placed it there as bait.

Hopefully this would work as both the "material evidence" and the "shock treatment" in one, allowing me to show her a real-time example of the effects her behaviour is having on her and her relationships.

Its hard to feel like the parent in the child-parent relationship

[chnt]

"Mum, I need to discuss something with you... You are a kleptomaniac, I love you and am not attacking you, but I am concerned for you. For quite some time I have noticed personal belongings have been disappearing, several family members have also mentioned that things of theirs have gone missing after your visits, I fear that you may lose your relationships with your family if you do not address this, I want to help you but more importantly you need to acknowledge that you have a problem (which does not make you a bad person) and you have to want to help yourself, please have a think about what I have said and consider seeing a counsellor, once again you are not a bad person and I am telling you this because I love you and want to help you."

or some shit like that...

[endorfinder]

I've known quite a few kleptos and it can be VERY hard to deal with. Does your mother have any history of OCD type behaviour, gambling, drug abuse, risk taking behaviour? The urge can come from many places :/

[Khala]

Don't get angry or confront her - she'll only shut down.

She either has an addiction or a mental illness (perhaps an early onset of Alzheimer's or Dementia).

She may not even be aware of her actions, I'm not sure. It depends on the person for how to best go about it

[bogfrog]

I dont think she sees it as stealing so in a way she isnt aware of what she is doing.

And shes definately the sort of person who would shut down when confronted.

I'm not angry at her for it but i can see how it is pushing people away from her.

Maybe there is really nothing i can do to help her.. Infact by focussing on and trying to fix her issue i am expending energy that i should be utilising to unwravel my own issues.

Maybe stealing is the only way she can bring herself to a crisis point to learn from her mistakes..

I'm sorry for creating a pointless thread, this isnt my problem and it certainly isnt any of yours. I am a silly girl indeed.

[incognito]

Could u write her a letter??

[endorfinder]

I don't know how affordable mental health is in NZ but it's often useful to talk to a shrink to understand and help with the conditions of sick people in your life, even if you don't have any major "issues" yourself.

Best of luck bogfrog, I don't envy your situation. If only it was about $ it would be so easy to deal with... the most common story you hear of middle aged female kleptos is that it's almost a kind of revenge for feeling ignored by society, a way to take back control more than anything. Can't pretend I can come close to understanding it though.

[CβL]

If she's not consciously thinking of her actions as stealing, then you might want to try a 'roadmap approach'. Basically, just break down what's she's doing into smaller chunks, that aren't huge leaps. Like 'things have gone missing, and we found them in your stuff (or we saw you)'.

Those were other people's things, and you didn't ask for them and just took.

That hurt their feelings.

This is the definition of stealing ("taking without asking" or whatever it says in the dictionary) - are you doing that?

Something that is like what chnt wrote, but without the word 'stealing' or 'theft', (because certain words trip defenses - if you tip-toe around the words. Maybe.

Ultimately you are the person who has the best idea of what to say, and even then - there's no one right way to do it, there are thousands.

[Torsten]

This is a mental health issue that needs professional help just like OCD or bulimia. Simply informing the person of the problem will not change anything as they are probably aware of it already. Getting someone to accept they need therapy is a whole different story though.

[Roopey]

Look into Marshall Rosenberg's work about how to communicate your feelings and needs without judging the other person. It helps to empathize with what they are feeling and needing first for them to open up and here you.

[bogfrog]

Thanks, i'll do that.

[coin]

not that I disagree, but when does a not so great habit become a mental health issue requiring therapy?

I've heard a lot of criticism lately of the current "obsession" with "medicalising" these sort of problems...with the next step being "it's not his fault that he steals things - he has an underactive left prefrontal cortex & acts compulsively through excessive amygdala activation" etc.

[chnt]

^everyone has mental health issues... empathy to all

[bogfrog]

From the limited research i have done, it seems that kleptomania is a psychological addiction strongly linked to OCD and anxiety.

Chnt is right, almost everyone has unresolved issues which left un-checked severely hinder progress towards becoming a genuinely healthy and happy person.

Its a very sad misconception that you have to be 'crazy' to go to therapy.

We live in a demented society, you almost have to be demented not to struggle in someway or another as a result of that.

[chnt]

perhaps i should re-iterate... everyone on earth is bat shit fucking crazy

[santiago]

you are absolutely correct in alot of ways chnt, most people are batshit crazy and simply the fact is some people hide it alot better or simply hide IT or hide behind social norms better. the way i see it you gotta fight fire with fire sometimes but of course picking your battles wisely.

the theiving mum needs stuff stolen off her. figure out what she finds as important, sell it on ebay and then when she comes looking for it hand her a printed out page of the sale, if this doesnt work then just let her be. i know its your mum OP but thats just emotion coming into it, keep stealing back from her.

when i was a teenager my mums boyfriend used to bash my mum domestic violence style, i accidently sobbed and told some of my bogan mates who then whisked me up and proceeded to break into my house, bash my mums boyfriend and scare the living daylights out of him. To this day 20 years later he has never put a finger on my mum again. Of course i know the ol anti violence flower power brigade will snuff their noses in disgust at violence apon violence, but in regards to some problems in life i think its more the moral fight fire with fire and pick your battles as opposed to most of the time worthless psyco babble and meaningless words and promises.

[chnt]

of course i'm right, i'm chnt...

the theiving mum needs stuff stolen off her. figure out what she finds as important, sell it on ebay and then when she comes looking for it hand her a printed out page of the sale, if this doesnt work then just let her be. i know its your mum OP but thats just emotion coming into it, keep stealing back from her.

what a novel idea, you gotta do it bogfrog, i like your style santa

[Torsten]

not that I disagree, but when does a not so great habit become a mental health issue requiring therapy?

I've heard a lot of criticism lately of the current "obsession" with "medicalising" these sort of problems...with the next step being "it's not his fault that he steals things - he has an underactive left prefrontal cortex & acts compulsively through excessive amygdala activation" etc.

I am not a fan of medicalisation, but OCD type conditions are a pretty serious situation and often escalate rapidly into something that is a bit more serious than a 'not so great habit'. Also, the more engrained OCD is the more difficult it is to treat, so the longer such a habit is regarded as benign, the less likely that it can be treated. I have seen many mild OCD type condition esalate at a time of crisis and then the new habit often becomes life controlling, severe and permanent. Learning ways to cope and manage these conditions at an early stage can prevent this and ths can prevent much heartache for the person with the habit/condition as well as the affected people around them. OCD type conditions often destroy more than one life.

By therapy I mean a psychologist, ie 'talkies' rather than meds.

It's also important to keep in mind that OCD rarely happens as a standalone condition. It is often triggered by [or a symptom of] serotonin deficiency, ie depression or anxiety. Picking up on OCD-like conditions often also shows that there is a long term [often insidious] underlying depression, which is often quite severe, but well hidden due to the learnt hiding skills of the affected person. Getting someone into therapy may prevent much worse down the track. And if the talkies therapy shows a medical need for treatment then that can be assessed separately. OCD-type conditions are often effectively treated with a short course of SSRIs combined with long term talkies, so medical treatment might be somethign to consider especially if there are more serious associated or underlying conditions.