Led grow lights

[mushroomman]

I was just wondering if anyone here has tried one of these for growing pereskiopsis befor?

LED 225 GROW LIGHT BLUE/RED PANEL 13.8W HYDROPONICS

http://bit.ly/VlYCoi

[Optimystic]

not me, but interesting stuff on this blog... maybe someday

http://pereskiopsisforestryservice.blogspot.com/2008/06/pereskiopsis-and-led-lights.html

[Stillman]

I've got a couple panels that I tried with I don't think they do much your better off with a 18 watt fluro or cfl. Just not enough lumens. Have you seen th eshot sof trichos grown under the same lights on that site, very etiolated.

Edited January 22, 2013 by Stillman

[mushroomman]

I've got a couple panels that I tried with I don't think they do much your better off with a 18 watt fluro or cfl. Just not enough lumens. Have you seen th eshot sof trichos grown under the same lights on that site, very etiolated.

just had a look then at the trichos under them then . i wont bother trying them after seeing that , thanks

[Bigred]

they are shit chuck them in the bin, but could be suitable for mushroom grows .

but it is way cheaper to make a bank of compact fluro's. some led's are useless

as grow lights they produce lumen's but not many plant friendly lumens

edit with the wattage's of led lights they do come in 225 watt

the one in the link we did a test in store its shit really shit the window sill is better

but there is technology out there but it is way of being

as efficient as hps/mh lighting, induction lighting sounds

promising though

Edited January 23, 2013 by bigred82

[applesnail]

Yeah there shit...i used LED for awhile and the little globes blow/short out sometimes work sometime dont...shit! Eventually they all die! HPS all the way, i tried to flower some bob marley under a CFL (dual spectrum wank wank) before it became illegal when rastas ran the parliament...and decided there shit also..slow as compared to development under a HPS! Just my thoughts!

Edited January 22, 2013 by applesnail

[Evil Genius]

LED Lamps are definately NOT Shit! They are not as effective as HPS or Metal Hallogen Lamps but they have their Advantages! Not as hot and can be built in closed systems, probably dont cause skin cancer what makes it easier to have them inside and they are cheaper in regard to the energy costs involved. If you buy a cheap 30 Dollar LED Lamp on ebay that has something like 5 or 10 watt, you dont need to wonder its not growing or that the Lamps die within a few months. For a LED Lamp, you´ll have to invest about 250 Euro. LED Lamps start to get interesting from 250 Watt and above. And i would only use the newest generation of High Power LED´s as they are WAY Brighter than the normal ones. I think that the technique has a lot of potential but isnt really ready yet. However, i really think that this type of growlight could be the future if newer generations can improve the intensity. So if you wanna use the most effective type of light and dont bother about a few bucks more a month, you would be better to use a good HPS Lamp between 400 and 600 Watt. If you feel like experimenting a bit, the LED Lamp is definately an interesting type of investment. As an examle, i use a very effective High Power Red LED Lamp to get the Cacti to flower that are rather difficult. The red Light triggers the ability to flower more than any other lamp i´ve ever used!

[Fluss]

I have a setup with almost exactly the same sort of light, only higher Watt, mine are 45W a piece, for the moment i have 2 - wich have satisfied me more then i thought, my succulents and my bamboo just love it. One more on the way! The columnar cacti won't be growing as fat as they do out in the sun(no surprise) but other then that the combo of being cheap in their consumption of energy and satisfying my plants i think it's OK for the price I payed. Picked mine up for cheap here in Sweden on a Ebay site, for my soon 3 x 45w i have payed 120 aus. dollars in total, including shipping from hongkong. I think it's worth it if they last me a couple of years. I don't even have them as close to the lights as i could, I have a couple of longleafed bastards in there and they don't burn the leaves even when only 1-3 cm away from the diode it seems.

[Optimystic]

Good Point Stillman.. I'll admit I was taken by the neato factor rather than really looking closely at the pereskies...
But also, mine do so well under strong fluoro light (4 high output t5s) that I don't really consider anything else...

other than outdoors when it gets warmer... which frankly I will have to cause these grow too fast

If I ever got LEDs it would be for the lower heat factor alone but I don't even know if thats reliable.. EG makes a good point

that how much wattage is obviously a factor. Frankly I like my pereskies to be thinner, but the same can be achieved by growing them a bit away from directly under the lights... but also, my most vigorous strain, porteri, has a tendency to thicken up really fast . I use thicker stumps to produce new thinner tips...

It should be noted that pereskies display much different growth (leaf shapes) under different spectrums.. I found out by accident when I tried to clear some space and I put a couple of them in a chamber with a more red instead of cool white... also, both leaf shapes on the same plant, were both quite alot different than what the plant showed in natural sunlight.... Pereskies have this ability to adapt different cell types to carry on different functions, related to breathing and or absorbing ... Im sure humidity may play a factor.. I had one pereskie that showed 2 or three leaf types on one plant cause I moved it around a bit...

I found a really in depth study on this but it was something I just ran across, I think before I even got a pereskie.... It was some really cool science.. I wish I could find that link again.. it was on a university page I think

Edited January 22, 2013 by Spine Collector

[Bigred]

but still im a skeptic its probably everyone who buy's one comes back a month later

and gives me a ear full on how i sold him a shit light, I told him he would be upset

with its performance. The one thing i find with the led's( i have a experimented with

every model) is replacing the led chips as they burn out after a year with a HID

system you just replace the bulb ,with a led system the whole thing needs

replacing but my cupboard system is a 1000w but i use a air cooled shade

i have no heat problems and im running a extra 200w cfl down the side just

to push it to the max and put some more blue in there. i know it sounds

like im using so much power but when you factor in yield per watt it

still beats led's hands down

there are good led's out there but getting your hands on them is another

thing but setup cost and replacement cost are big factor's

with regards to triggering flowering i agree with you E.G the best one

i have seen is called hot rox and it is a pure red led system

but i used it in conjunction with a mh system got great results

the future will be led's no doubt about that, but there is a lot of

shit out there. so just be careful make sure it is a 240v

system as transforming big loads to 120v can cause big

issue's .

Edited January 23, 2013 by bigred82

[trucha]

Applesnail - That board you had sounds like it was made like crap. All three of those issues you mention sound like assembly or design problems. The lamps should last for a few years and should never be intermittent. If they burn out something is really wrong. A wrong or missing resistor would be my first guess. Intermittent power is likely a bad solder joint or connection. I've found these are most commonly located where one of the resistor lead connects to the resistor itself. I've assumed it occurs when those leads are being bent back for packing into the fixture prior to potting with RTV? (I tend to tear things like that apart and attempt to either fix or at least understand the trouble.)

The time for getting a refund has no doubt passed but you really should complain loudly to your supplier.

bigred82 -- I'm really curious as to why those panels burn out so fast? Overpowering? There is really not a lot of point using LED panels if they are so short-lived. I start getting a drop in output after a few years but rarely lose one entirely unless it is a wiring problem.

I don't disagree with anything EG said but I also feel that this technology is still in its toddler stages and needs more time to grow up.

Edited January 22, 2013 by trucha

[Bigred]

my friend has a 700 watt induction light and it runs cool and puts out 80,000 lumen's

but cost him over a grand to buy and the bulb has a 5 year life he uses it for a marine

aquarium it is a great light the coral growth is amazing and it is a veg bulb 3000 kelvin

and normally marine bulbs a 10,000 kelvin

I get these idiot sales reps from the state's calling me offering me this led crap

but to get the good ones you have to go out and find them. The induction light

to six months to get a hold of because they only came in 120 volt so to get the 240v

option took a while. There are some great lighting concept's out there,but as with the incandescent

bulb hps ,and mh will soon be a thing of the past

[Optimystic]

lol Bigred82 ... I so needed to read that today @ the bottom of ur post

"A fool that knows they are a fool, is further along the path of enlightenment than a wise man"....

Gee, I'm such a fool lol...

aside from that, your comment makes a good high quality LED setup seem all the more interesting... I look at them in a new light if you will

I just can't wait to see them in a new affordable price.... $1,000< I dunno how that converts here but thats more than I got to play around with

[veritas]

what seems to be the issue with the LEDS though, just not enough light pumped out? I have a friend who deals with very new LED technology and I was going to get him to make me a prototype based on a 7:1:1 ratio on blue red and orange that I have seen reviews on. I have also heard that the light they produce just is not plant friendly (as in the don't like to grow under it). If it is just lumens that is the issue I will be asking him for the biggest and brightest! I know he also has LEDs that you can changed to anything RGB via a touch pad, not sure if being able to manage the colours would be of help?

[Alice]

I'm really curious as to why those panels burn out so fast? Overpowering? There is really not a lot of point using LED panels if they are so short-lived.

They burn out mainly due to poor heat-sinking.

I dabble a bit in high powered LED torches. When you run LEDs close to or above their recommended max rating, they can generate a lot of heat. I use a couple of different LEDs like XMLs, R5s etc and believe me, if you run them at 7.4V for more than about 5 mins, you can't even touch them. And that's with maybe 30g of copper under the pill, properly wicked with thermal paste.

As EG said, LEDs are awesome but don't even bother unless you are going to invest some decent coin. And as with torches, the majority of LEDs on ebay put out only a fraction of the stated output. Or the start out brigh and after 2 mins the output drops off due to the heat.

Now, the following pic is not a grow lamp, just one single LED, the mighty SST-90 (this particular torch has an aspherical lens on it to give maximum throw). With proper heat sinking it can put out close to 2000 lumens. LEDs can be very bright!

Edit: and if anyone is interested in very high powered LEDs, check out Candle Power Forums, my other main hang out: http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/forum.php Check out the custom made sections, schweeeeeet.

Edited January 23, 2013 by Alice

[Alice]

Here's a little snippet from the forum I referred to above. They are discussing what wattage you would need to match T5 bulbs (i.e. shop fluoros). The quoted text is from someone who has done some decent research.

from here: http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?345791-Building-LED-panel-to-grow-leafy-veggies-what-and-were-to-start-help-needed

I have been doing R&D for the last 2 years growing Baby Leaf Lettuce in a controlled environment using LED based lights as the only source of illumination.
Blasterman is correct that a T5 setup is the most effective solution from a first cost basis.

You need to understand the wall plug efficiencies(WPE) of the various light sources available to you. In your specific case we need to compare T5 Fluorescent to LEDs. Obviously the WPEs of T5 Fluorescent and LEDS vary greatly but I will try to present a best case scenario for both technologies.

T5 Fuorescent High Output
4000K
High Efficiency Ballast 95% efficient
Bulb HO >100 lumens per watt - 30% efficient
Reflector 85% efficient
Housing 95% efficient
-------------------------
30 x .95 x .85 x .95 = 23% WPE

LED
4000K
High Efficiency Power Supply 90% efficient
LED Output >120 lumens per watt - 36% efficient
Reflector NONE
Housing 95% efficient
-------------------------
36 x .90 x .95 = 30% WPE

In summary - the LED system outputs roughly 30% more light than the T5 system.

But we want to grow plants so we must look at the radiant flux in terms of its efficiency in driving photosynthesis. To do this we restrict the output to a range of 400 - 700 nm. Since Fluorescent is a UV based source - there is a small but measurable output below 400nm. We therefore need to derate our original T5 Fluorescent 23% WPE value by a further 10%. Similiar derating is not required for the LED source.

The final variable in these WPE calculations is the T5 Housing/Reflector. In a soil or soiless mix based program - dust is a major factor. You would need to clean the reflector daily to even come close to the derating values applied to these calculations.

Finally, for reference, all of the Chinese and non Brand name Grow lights I have tested show a WPE below 20%. Philips have some expensive professional Grower LED systems that have a value closer to 30% WPE.

Back to your original question - yes - watt for watt, you can easily use 30-50% less power for an LED based system compared to a T5 system.
But how many LED system watts do you require to grow Lettuce within a 1 square meter layout, assuming a 30% WPE?

Well, here is where it gets a bit complicated. I would suggest you read the "growing" related threads I have participated in here on CPF over the last two years. What follows is a condensed version of the conversion process of radiant flux to PAR(PPFD).

LED 4000K
30% WPE
100 source watts

100 Source Watts x .30 WPE = 30 Optical Watts Out
30 watts x 4.5 umoles per watt = 135 PPFD

Plants do not grow based on instantaneous flux(PPFD) but rather by the total amount of light received over one day - Daily Light Integral(DLI).
Commercial Lettuce growers aim for a DLI of between 12 - 18 mol m2 d-1. To calculate DLI we do the following:

(Based on lighting 16 hours per day)
135 PPFD x 16 hours per day x 60 secs/min x 60 mins/hr /1,000,000
= 7.78 Daily Light Integral

Since we want to fall between the DLI range of 12 -18 we would need a minimum of 200 source watts of LEDs at a 30% WPE. Or you can reduce the source watts and light for 20 hours per day.

If you want to grow your lettuce at a max rate I would suggest the following parameters for your system-based on a one square meter layout:
Temp 25-30C
Humidity 75%
500 source watts of LED at 30% WPE
Lighting cycle = 20 hours per day

Our R&D setup is currently running:
Temp 30C
Humidity 75%
650 Source watts at 20% WPE
Lighting Cycle = 20 hours per day

We are using BR30 bulbs as they are the lowest first cost available and allow us the flexability to continually try out different color temps and take advantage of more efficient bulbs as they become available.

That person is using LED bulbs that plug into your standard bulb holder on your ceiling. They are decent quality and properly heatsinked. But they are expensive, especially considering how many you'd need to get a decent enough wattage.

Edited January 23, 2013 by Alice

[applesnail]

id only bother with LED technology if your house is on solar power and id build my own, from what ive experienced, the manufactured ones with hefty price tags seem to be very unreliable and burden for what a cheaper outlay HPS can do,like big red says yields to wattage you still come out a winner!

"You win battles by knowing the enemys timing,and using a timing which the enemy does not expect" Miyamoto Mushashi.

Edited January 23, 2013 by applesnail

[Bigred]

what seems to be the issue with the LEDS though, just not enough light pumped out? I have a friend who deals with very new LED technology and I was going to get him to make me a prototype based on a 7:1:1 ratio on blue red and orange that I have seen reviews on. I have also heard that the light they produce just is not plant friendly (as in the don't like to grow under it). If it is just lumens that is the issue I will be asking him for the biggest and brightest! I know he also has LEDs that you can changed to anything RGB via a touch pad, not sure if being able to manage the colours would be of help?

its more to do with useable lumens as a led only produces a monochromatic spectrum so you either

get a single red or a single blue when a hps bulb is burning you get a multi spectrum and all these different spectrum's

is what makes the plants grow but you will soon see multi spectrum led's it is just a matter of time. so basicly

what im saying it might be bright but does the plant like it can it digest the lumens so to speak

, its like using a green spectrum to grow plants they will die from light deficiency .

[trucha]

Alice - my understanding is that the heating you mention is a significant problem with the present higher powered panels. Haight seems to have a good heat sink design but I've never used their lights.

I love the technology and look forward to its future. Thanks for posting all of that useful info. Those sure can be bright. I tried some 20W LEDs for task lighting and turned around backward.

[Evil Genius]

The Thing with High Power Led Panels is that you should not under any circumstances buy one without an integrated cooling fan. Thats actually a very important part of the available LED Panels. The Reason that the cheap 5 Watt Lamps from ebay die so fast is that they dont have a cooling device built in. I have a few that i mostly use for the Cactus seedlings that didnt get big fast enough over summer and they have strong fans built and i dont think i´ve ever lost one LED so far. Maybe 1 or 2 at max but i honestly cannot remember one broken light. Under the right conditions, the life span of a LED is said to have 10.000 hours. At least thats what they promise. Havent really used them 10.000 hours and i guess you can definately substract sonmething like 2000 hours because of the typical marketing promises but it is still a long lifespan.

Edited January 23, 2013 by Evil Genius

[Bigred]

just got a 400 watt induction grow light from a Chinese manufacturer it claims to

perform the same as a 1000 watt hps will start doing some tests with it

will keep everyone posted

[Heretic]

bigred82 , apologies for my ignorance - what are " induction " grow lights ? ....[ btw , I am very impressed with HPS , except for the power bill }

[Bigred]

a induction light is similar to a fluro it can also be refered to as a electrodeless lamp

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrodeless_lamp

Edited February 9, 2013 by bigred82

[nothinghead]

For a LED Lamp, you´ll have to invest about 250 Euro. LED Lamps start to get interesting from 250 Watt and above. And i would only use the newest generation of High Power LED´s as they are WAY Brighter than the normal ones.

Hey eg, wondering if you can recommend a particular brand/supplier for a good quality (but low end) LED set up? I want to try one out for growing and fruiting chillis and leafy herbs (basil, coriander etc) indoors over the winter. We're in the same kinda region, so maybe you know an online place based in de that posts?

[Evil Genius]

Hi Raketemensch, cant give you a certain Manufactorer as most of them come across pretty nonamely. I would recommend you to get something like this:

http://www.ebay.de/itm/435W-LED-Cluster-Grow-Lampe-Modell-F16-Pflanzenlampe-Pflanzenlicht-Full-Spektrum-/321190560241?pt=DE_Sport_Camping_Outdoor_Lampen_Laternen&hash=item4ac87301f1

Its 435 Watt and looks like a pretty good lamp. Just make sure to get one with a goo air ventilation as it keeps the LED´s from burning out.

Or something like this with 200W.

http://www.ebay.de/itm/200W-LED-Pflanzenlampe-Wachstum-Lampe-Grow-Licht-Pflanzen-Rot-Blau-Orange-Lampe-/250949936379?pt=DE_Sport_Camping_Outdoor_Lampen_Laternen&hash=item3a6dc824fb